Springfield M1A group issues.

[opshin556]

M1A shooters;
I have a M1A loaded 22" 1/11 twist M1A I bought new a few years ago.
The rifle runs great, feeds everything, throws spent cases 10+ feet.
New from factory with NM iron sights benched with the walnut stock I was able to get 2.5" groups at 100 yards using 168fgmm.
Figured I could do better with optics, so i started the search for a scope mount.

Yes, anyone who has an M1A knows what this is about.
I ended up putting a Troy Battle rail on the thing, and mounting a USO 1.8-10.
Now at 100yards using 168fgmm I would get 4 shots in about 1" and a flyer every group of 5 that opened group to 2".

So I replaced the stock with a Archangel drop in, which was hardly drop in.
Because of the battle rail, custom fit was needed.
The stock was too big on the sides for the battle rail, so i started sanding down the sides little by little to properly fit the stock.
I wanted it as tight as possible.
2 hours later i could get the action and trigger assembly in the rifle. tight as a catholic virgin.
Range session;
I ended up going through various handloads, and bullet weights ranging from 147 to 185 scenars.
It liked the 178 Amax from HSM and the 175 Fgmm best.
Still my groups were 1.5" on my best day.
Other guys as experienced as me and more could not get any better groups.
Having put enough money in this project to have bought an LMT or OBR, not to mention the range time and ammo, I am frustrated with the end results.
Question:
Am I being unrealistic with my expectations and this rifles capabilities?
Has anyone been able to get sub moa groups from their M1A consistently?
Any other ideas that dont involve spending more $ on the damn thing?
Thanks

 

[JoshcBoucher]

Re: Springfield M1A group issues.

I went through the same thing with mine. A little different scope setup, but the same results, except I got 2-3 in. groups. Mine is the 'Loaded' version. Went through various hand load recipes, to no avail. Settled on the simple fact, that I had a nice, "historic" semi-auto, that "does pretty good", on the range, and went and bought a Rem 700-5R. I'm revisiting the M1A, and had a thought, after reading the manual twice. Would the gun shoot better, if I turned off the gas system{grenade launching function}, and shot it as a "single shot rifle", thereby removing the "semi-auto "movement", from the equation. Would that harm the gun? I await input, from more "Knowledgable" Guys. I don't think the gun suffers from my input, on the range, as I'm shooting 3/4 to 1 in. groups with the 5R.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Springfield M1A group issues.

I got my M1A in 1977,It's a super match that I have shot it quite abit since. I shot it while shooting for the guard until I retired. Still shoot it today though not as much in matches since I got my Distinguished Badge (trying to switch to the AR)

Couldn't tell you how many rounds I put through it, I know I've replaced barrels 4 times.

Sometimes it shot good, sometimes it didn't.

I found out when it wouldn't shoot good all I had to do was take a bunch of ammo to the range and practice.

Nothing improves the M1A like going back to the basics, its fundamentals not how much crap you can pile on the rifle.

Stu Clingmen (a legon among NG shooters) ran the Wyoming Marmskmanship program while I was running Alaska's. I asked pretty much the same question you asked and he said "sling up and shoot" it will fix just about any rifle.

 

[VarmitSpecial]

Re: Springfield M1A group issues.

I just had to send my White Feather back to Springfield to have the rigid rail fixed as I couldnt even get the gun on paper with a Leupold Mk 4. That being said Springfield had it back to me in less than 2 weeks on their dime. I haven't had a chance to get out and see if it is fixed or not. I would call them and see what they say, they have great customer service.

 

[BCP]

Re: Springfield M1A group issues.

I would say an 1.5" is about average some are better some are worse. If you think about it 1.5MOA consistently isn't bad for a battle rifle at all which is what the M1A was made for.

If you're in norcal area I can recommend a couple smiths but that means more $$$$ on your part and it sounds like you're all moneyed out on it. Either just shoot it or sell it (probably at a loss) and get an AR or bolt rifle.

 

[bunsen27]

Re: Springfield M1A group issues.

The M1A is a fine battle rifle and a blast to shoot! However, making it into a bug hole shooting precision weapon takes a lot of $$$$. 1.5 in groups at 100yds is not too bad considering the stock you have it in. The Archangel stock is an all polymer copy of a JAE which is basically a machined aluminum chassis with permanent skins. I have a M1A project that is awaiting the arrival of a JAE stock very soon, but don't anticipate it shrinking my groups below 0.75in and more likely keeping them right around 1.0in There are a few less expensive things you can do to improve accuracy and consistancey as the M1A has many moving parts:

1. shim gas cylinder
2. install NM guide rod and spring
3. install NM gas piston
4. polish and lube up front ferrule contact points

A ton of good info on M1A's can be found here:

http://m14forum.com/

I'd also recommend picking up these two books:

http://www.amazon.com/M14-Complete-Assem...3995&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/owners-guide-match-conditioning-instructions/dp/188872207X/ref=pd_sim_b_1

 

[hamstur]

Re: Springfield M1A group issues.

I have an 18" Scout from McMillan. OK with commercial match -- averages 1.5" at 100 with BHA 168 and 1.25" with FGMM 168. Varget and IMR4064 is too slow for 168 but great behind 175, which is confirmed by your M1A liking FGMM 175. BHA is similar to 46.0 Varget, and FGMM is silimar to 42.5 IMR4064. BHA is way too hot & felt overpressured on my gas system. For whatever reason, it loves and averages 1" groups at 100 with what I thought was junky & underpowered Remington UMC 150gr but sucks past 200 yds.

For M1A accuracy, handloads are the way. Try 41.0-42.0gr of IMR4895 in LC or RP brass behind a 168 BTHP and you will be surprised by MOA peformance. If this recipe does not outshoot FGMM 168, you got a problem with your rifle. Absolute best load was 41.5gr IMR4895, 1960-era Lake City Match, 168 BTHP. Very consistent 1.5"-1.75" at 200 yards.

Imho, 2 critical M1A mods are solid bedded stock & trigger job. My flyers went away after Andy at SEI took the 9# beast trigger down to 4#.

 

[doubledown]

Re: Springfield M1A group issues.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bunsen</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The M1A is a fine battle rifle and a blast to shoot! However, making it into a bug hole shooting precision weapon takes a lot of $$$$. 1.5 in groups at 100yds is not too bad considering the stock you have it in. The Archangel stock is an all polymer copy of a JAE which is basically a machined aluminum chassis with permanent skins. I have a M1A project that is awaiting the arrival of a JAE stock very soon, but don't anticipate it shrinking my groups below 0.75in and more likely keeping them right around 1.0in There are a few less expensive things you can do to improve accuracy and consistancey as the M1A has many moving parts:

1. shim gas cylinder
2. install NM guide rod and spring
3. install NM gas piston
4. polish and lube up front ferrule contact points

A ton of good info on M1A's can be found here:

http://m14forum.com/

also recommend picking up these two books:

http://www.amazon.com/M14-Complete-Assem...3995&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/owners-guide-match-conditioning-instructions/dp/188872207X/ref=pd_sim_b_1

</div></div>


All good info. I have a loaded also, it loves 155 A-max's you can get them to shoot moa but you need to unitze the gas system for consistency shot to shot, something the M1a is lacking out of the box. The second thing is getting it bedded properly, it sounds like you might have that covered. Google Sadlak industries, they make killer parts for the M1a, I use their tin coated gas piston and guide rod. I use a Tubb CS spring.

That should get you where you want to be with a bullet the rifle likes, they can be picky, and seem to take more work to get to shoot moa than most other rifles imo.

Good luck, hope it turns into a shooter for you.

Steve.

 

[Oneteam]

Re: Springfield M1A group issues.

The most consistent way to get great accuracy out of an M1A after addressing the issues of unitizing and shimming the gas cylinder, trigger pull, lubricating all the moving parts. You should try switching gas pistons, don't think that could help? Read this by a former master armorer for The Marine Corps Rifle team.

http://m14forum.com/gus-fisher/109897-m14-gas-pistons-maintenance-their-effects-accuracy.html

 

[Oakland Tactical]

Re: Springfield M1A group issues.

You will spend a lot of money, and you'll have to struggle to keep it MOA in shooting and mechanical aspects, thats if the stars align on your build. Been there done that. A quality AR10/15 platform will do it with ease compared to M14 platform.

After owning 14, some shot good some not so good. I sold my last M1A <span style="font-weight: bold">Standard</span> which shot 1.25-1.5 consistantly after geting the whole action and barrel cryogenicly treated. I replaced it with a LMT that shoots .55-.75 with black hills match with no work at all. LMT replicates this in thousands of rifles.

 

[NoExpert]

Re: Springfield M1A group issues.

I can get 1.5 MOA with surplus, but then again I don't have an M1A.

The Troy battle rail could be a big part of the problem. Sell it and get a Bassett low picatinny mount. This will isolate the scope to the receiver.

Next is the stock... if you're happy with it, I guess run it, but it'd be about my last choice, next to an SA Inc polymer stock.

Shim the front band as recommended. Also a NM spring guide wouldn't hurt.

It won't be AR accurate, but I've seen them get sub MOA.

 

[dreiaugen]

Re: Springfield M1A group issues.

OP, what you've experienced is not unusual at all. It takes a lot of care and feeding to keep them running better than 2 MOA.

I spent some time at it with my M1As and got fed up. I'm selling both of them to fund a Predatar.