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SR-25

Sterling Shooter

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 10, 2004
2,842
29
Louisville, Kentucky
I noticed a new SR-25 came into inventory at the store where I work part-time in Louisville. Are these still hard to find? I did not think they were sold to any but military. Am I wrong or confused about that? Where this rifle came from has not been revealed to me.
 
Re: SR-25

SR25s have been around in the commerical markets since the 90s. The supply really started to dry up around 2004 - KAC was pumping almost all their rifles to .mil contract. In the last six months or so KAC has begun pushing their SR25s back into the commerical market with a few different models. If you post a pic, or give us some more info we should be able to tell you what year and/or model your SR25 in the shop is. Hope this helps!
 
Re: SR-25

When they work, they work great. When they don't they're pretty bad. In my limited experience (US government and military-owned SR-25 rifles) I wouldn't take one to combat until I personally knew it works.

I don't trust them.

As a Special Forces Company Commander overseas I owned 24 of them. I sent them back to KAC with two NCOs to try to get them fixed.

The NCOs came back in a couple of days. We didn't see the rifles again for two years, and some still didn't work.

I signed the original Army Quality Deficiency Report which prompts the Army to STOP PAYMENT to a contract supplier until an item meets contract or MILSPEC. That got their attention.

Which is why I own AR-10s.
 
Re: SR-25

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When they work, they work great. When they don't they're pretty bad. In my limited experience (US government and military-owned SR-25 rifles) I wouldn't take one to combat until I personally knew it works.

I don't trust them.

As a Special Forces Company Commander overseas I owned 24 of them. I sent them back to KAC with two NCOs to try to get them fixed.

The NCOs came back in a couple of days. We didn't see the rifles again for two years, and some still didn't work.

I signed the original Army Quality Deficiency Report which prompts the Army to STOP PAYMENT to a contract supplier until an item meets contract or MILSPEC. That got their attention.

Which is why I own AR-10s. </div></div>

Double Ouch.....
 
Re: SR-25

I have a good idea of what Sinister Dave's experience level is. And we've seen literally hundreds of them at...well, you know where.

If someone gave me one, I'd sell it immediately.

A host of riflesmiths will build you an AR-10 which is more accurate and more reliable for a third - or less - of the money.

I regard them as an expensive solution looking for a problem.
 
Re: SR-25

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a good idea of what Sinister Dave's experience level is. And we've seen literally hundreds of them at...well, you know where.

If someone gave me one, I'd sell it immediately.

A host of riflesmiths will build you an AR-10 which is more accurate and more reliable for a third - or less - of the money.

I regard them as an expensive solution looking for a problem.
</div></div>

Part of the problem with a lot of the rifles you see there, especially from one named agency, is that we run them WAY too hard - more so than they were even intended for. Accordingly KAC suggests you run their SR25 about as hard as a bolt gun with regards to firing rates. Never going to happen....
 
Re: SR-25

SR-25's, MK11MOD0, MK110's, are all different animals from the same manufacturer. The new EM's have I think new gas systems contributing to better accuracy and reliability. I have an early SR-25. and it has been flawless so far!
 
Re: SR-25

the problem with the accuracy with the military models comes from two places, 1. they have the KAC-2 point suppressor which is an extremely poor design. The 2 pt. suppressor cause a lot of problems because as the barrel and suppressor heat and cool at difference rates, one binds the other causing a problem with the harmonics and accuracy.

The next accuracy problem is generally the shooter. Poor fundamentals, especially with a gas gun. Its a different system and cannot be compared to shooting an AR15/M16 type rifle as the weights and bullet contribute more to how you drive the rifle.

The suppressor does blow a ton of material back into the chamber, so cleaning is important in that area. It's probably one of the dirtiest rifles I have seen.

The biggest problem with the SR25/ Mk 11 system we see is the bolt stop, they break, and break much more than you think. The problem isn't that the stop breaks but the frame cracks and that has the potential to cause huge problems which put the gun immediately out of commission.

If you look in this image you see the bolt release is missing:
SH_SS-1.jpg


One of two things happens when it breaks, you can either remove it and continue to work with it out, so the bolt won't lock to the rear, or it breaks when the bolt is in the buffer tube and you can't use the rifle at all. It jams the bolt in place.

With non-SOCOM Mk 11s we have seen them very badly out of spec, which is a product of poor QC from KAC, including bolts and bolt faces being very far out of spec.

The M110, has problems in the same area, but also, issues with the triggers, a large majority are taken out of service to have the triggers replaced.

The design on the M110 makes it unbalanced, and the birdcage on the muzzle is pretty silly. The barrel is longer, the suppressor is longer, the stock hollow. The balance is all off.

We have also seen a huge number of the scopes go down even brand new ones right out of the box, in my opinion, based on seeing too many of them, the scope is the weakest point in the whole system. But that is another story.

Its essentially a no-bid system that started out with cherry picked and custom designed sticks to impress the military and then went to a production rifle that doesn't even come close to the intended need. The Crane ones spec out around 1.5 MOA and that is usually on a good day. The non-crane models usually need to have the suppressor removed to get close to 2 MOA, maybe if you are lucky and a great driver you manage 1 to 1.25" MOA out of the system, but Quality control is definitely lacking. We alway recommend when you start out shoot the far targets first especially with the can on, because after about 20 to 30 rounds accuracy will drop off significantly.

They are Gucci but not nearly what you'd expect.
 
Re: SR-25

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When they work, they work great. </div></div>

Thread after thread and post after post I'm still realizing how much I've been lucky to own one of those few working SR-25 , mine is truly accurate and reliable indeed .

PP out
 
Re: SR-25

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the problem with the accuracy with the military models comes from two places, 1. they have the KAC-2 point suppressor which is an extremely poor design. The 2 pt. suppressor cause a lot of problems because as the barrel and suppressor heat and cool at difference rates, one binds the other causing a problem with the harmonics and accuracy.

The biggest problem with the SR25/ Mk 11 system we see is the bolt stop, they break, and break much more than you think. The problem isn't that the stop breaks but the frame cracks and that has the potential to cause huge problems which put the gun immediately out of commission.

One of two things happens when it breaks, you can either remove it and continue to work with it out, so the bolt won't lock to the rear, or it breaks when the bolt is in the buffer tube and you can't use the rifle at all. It jams the bolt in place.

With non-SOCOM Mk 11s we have seen them very badly out of spec, which is a product of poor QC from KAC, including bolts and bolt faces being very far out of spec.

The M110, has problems in the same area, but also, issues with the triggers, a large majority are taken out of service to have the triggers replaced.

We have also seen a huge number of the scopes go down even brand new ones right out of the box, in my opinion, based on seeing too many of them, the scope is the weakest point in the whole system. But that is another story. </div></div>

Frank is spot on. I broke a bolt catch on my work gun, no replacement on hand, so ran without one for the rest of the course. My suppressor index pin (old style roll pin) does not stay in and I've given up on getting it replaced. Most of the guys I work with refuse to shoot with the suppressor on for the above reasons. I live with it and shoot with mine on, but that's my choice and I am probably giving up some accuracy for it. I will say I do not have that many issues with FTFs, FTEs, etc. even when I run it hard it still runs, again that's just my rifle.... I just break bolt catches and lose suppressor index pins. My SIMRAD broke on me as well, maybe I just have bad luck....
 
Re: SR-25

hell if you have ever built a bolt action rifle you can build an AR-10 for half the price of any of the SR-25 models, even the M110, and get the exact same performance that KAC claims
 
Re: SR-25

I'll weigh in just a little-

I've got two M110's in my section, both have done well to hold sub 1" groups with 118LR when the shooter does his part. This is a big aspect- as lowlight mentioned, these guns are not easy to shoot... I'd call most bolt guns pretty natural shooting guns; you fall into them relatively easily. The M110 is difficult to drive. Addition of the Magpul PRS stock helps some with the balance and cheek weld, a fat grip helps with the short distance from grip to trigger. Being fairly new production guns with less than 1k rounds through them, both have performed well in the trigger area, KAC says they ironed out the trigger issues- if this is true or not, I don't know, we might just have lucked out on our guns. For several of the reasons stated above, I avoid using the suppressor- heat build-up and excessively dirty weapon are two of the main reasons. We just record our POI shift for suppressor use and only use them when required. A lot of people don't take into consideration that without an adjustable gas block, part of the reason you're seeing more contamination in the receiver and BCG is due to much higher pressures at the gas tube- this translates into more abuse on the gun itself. Guys that constantly run with the can generally experience more problems (at least from my observation). Also, as a lot of people have stated before, you have a much better reliability if you attempt to follow the firing schedule as best as you can- despite what capabilities you SHOULD have from a SASS, this gun really shouldn't double as a battle rifle- it just is not built to withstand the abuse. And yes, the Mk4 M2 isn't exactly quality. I saw two BRAND NEW M110's fail the box test last year, and I'm talking miserably fail. This was out of, I think 12 guns fresh out of the packing that day. Not very good if you ask me.

I have an OBR on order myself-- can't see spending the $$$$ for the M110; I don't see $4800 worth of product in it.
 
Re: SR-25

I havent run into that problem with the 20 inch POF .308 platform. I didn't like the way the gun was balanced with the collapsable stock and switched it out for the Magpul PRS which balanced out the rifle pretty well. Its a pretty darn good setup with some of the nicest features I have seen in a semi automatic rifle.

I haven't ran it with a suppressor as I live in CA and we can't even have more then 10 round mags unless they were pre ban possession.

As far as blow back, operating temperatures, and bolt stop failure is concerned I haven't had an issue with any. It was a bit fussy with the usage of the c-products magazines but the magpul lr20s fixed that.

Its pretty darn accurate and likes magtech, hornaday, lapua, and fgmm ammo. I have run mil surplus ammo through the rifle and it doesn't have a particular brand of ammo that it likes more as it shoots as good as the ammo is capable of. Lapua 155gr and FGMM 168gr have been getting half inch accuracy at the 100yard line.

I would have been all over the KAC rifles a long time ago but they have been banned by name for quite a while here behind the iron curtain and POF looked to be every bit as good if not better so I went that route and couldnt be happier. I would recomend this setup to anyone looking into semi auto 308 shooting as the rifle is accurate and really affordable especially compared with other platforms on the market. GA precision makes a heck of a set up aswell for those that have opinions against a gas piston setup.
 
Re: SR-25

I was interested to read this thread. I was considering getting a SR-25. I have a Knights Armament SR-15e3, and I really like it.
I might just stick with my bolt action 308's.
 
Re: SR-25

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sulenski</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Its pretty darn accurate and likes magtech, hornaday, lapua, and fgmm ammo.</div></div>

Oddly enough my sass / cmmg california special likes magtech as well, I should chrono some to figure out what speed it is and load up a bunch of my own 150gr FMJ stuff.

And I loaded the brass 4 times afterwards, still have some of it out on my bench now as part of my 175 grain load project.

For some reason I get good accuracy and function out of 150 grain and 175 grain loads but 168's have to be loaded hot to be accurate.
 
Re: SR-25

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: txlimey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was interested to read this thread. I was considering getting a SR-25. I have a Knights Armament SR-15e3, and I really like it.
I might just stick with my bolt action 308's. </div></div>

Buy a POF, GAP, hell anything else (other than REPR of course) and use the money you are saving for optics and ammunition. Too many good choices out there right now to buy something that is 2X what it should be.
 
Re: SR-25

We have learned at lot in 23+ years of building 7.62mm semi-auto rifles.
The early guns where designed for precision and did not have military use in mind. That said some units like the capabilities and bought them. The input from those went in to the demand for the Mk11 Mod0.
At the same time when production increased it was tough with the old gun as they really where hand fit, we hand build guns to this day, but the parts are interchangeable, unlike the early designs.

We take a lot of bad press, especially on the net, but the fact remains there is not a single production system that can beat us.

Yes you may be able to custom built a better system for an individual in cheaper or more accurate system, but not produce 200+ guns a month.

The current guns (M110 SASS, Mk11 Mod2, SR-25 EM Rifle and EM Carbine) are the top of the available systems.
Due to decrease rail deliveries, we have been able to re-enter civilian production of 7.62mm systems, the 16" SR-25 EM Carbine is both sub-moa and thousand round plus (suppressed) reliable without cleaning.

Sinister Dave- your always welcome here, and I welcome the opportunity to be able to show you the new systems.

We at KAC are very confident in our systems and we welcome the opportunities to be able to help and support the warfighter.
My contact info is in my signature line, please don't hesistate to call us.

We will stand behind any of our systems, be it military or civilian products.

Stay Safe.
 
Re: SR-25

I got to play with a M110 the other day at work,. Seems like a decent gun (it did feel slightly front heavy) The controls felt very nice, but I do not have any trigger or field time with it. I would have thought it would have a higher power scope but I guess that's what Uncle Sugar wanted to pay for so that's what we got.

I would LOVE to have the railed forend & adj. Stock, but I am not sure i can buy them or if the will even fit my AR-10.
 
Re: SR-25

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cruzie27</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I would LOVE to have the railed forend & adj. Stock, but I am not sure i can buy them or if the will even fit my AR-10. </div></div>

You can buy them - google for Knight's Armament Co. and you'll find it. IIRC the stock is 400 and the railed handguard is 500. There are lots of handguard options out there for both armalite and DPMS, midway carries some DPMS ones and 762sass.com carries some that are armalite.

If you have an A2 stock and what adjustable length of pull but not a cheek piece you can buy a buttpad that is adjustable, check midway. I *think* it is made by JP but I don't recall exactly.
 
Re: SR-25

This is one of the best threads I have read on a board in a while, lots of input from some very informed people.

I too found a brand new SR-25 EM Rifle on the rack at my local store. It looks like KAC just released a batch to the civilian market. I bought it on the spot, despite the price, as I was very impressed with the all-business look and feel of the rifle. I am a long time rifle buyer, and this is the first KAC I have seen live and for sale in a lot of looking.

Anyway, thank you to all of the posters for the information on KAC products...
 
Re: SR-25

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have delivered more than 3,500 Mk11's and more than 2,500 M110's.
The customers keep asking for more, I think that speaks volumes.</div></div>

I don't have a dog in this fight but I guess Toyota could claim the same - volume is no guarantee of quality.

Especially if a product's perceived reputation outweighs the reality or buyer's awareness?

As M24SWS says,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M24SWS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmm i alwys thought the sr25 was a really good gun from what ive heard. Didnt know it had the issues that it does.</div></div>
 
Re: SR-25

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We just got the USMC REPR contract with the M110 SASS ealier this year, so I would say that its hard to argue with success...





</div></div>
Yeah right....I would have loved to have been in the room as that deal was made.
 
Re: SR-25

I had a SR-25 Match with the Obermeyer barrell and came with the smooth handgaurds for many years. It got the UBR forend, and a 5.5-22X Nightforce. My log book says I ran 450+ rounds through it both suppressed and non-suppressed. I have the Surefire 7.62 can. It shot sub MOA when I drove it right, and never had one malfunction, EVER! This gun was a challenge to shoot, as has been mentioned, but what a beautiful rifle. Everytime at the range, people would come and look. If you like having uber cool stuff and don't mind paying the tab, then the SR-25 is for you. If you don't want the attention, then buy an AR-10, POF, FAL, G-3, Noveski, or whatever. All of which are great guns, but I see alot of haters out there on the net. Never had anyone put there AR-10 on the firing line for a shoot off. My local PD SWAT buddy was issued an AR-10, and could hold about 2MOA on a good day. Hell, I have a REPR now, and I love that one just as much! JPG
 
Re: SR-25

People should stop trash talking these awesome rifles! Ya these rifles might have some problems but they were chosen by the gov't for a reason...they had a helluva lot less problems than anything else that went through testing?

Charlie
 
Re: SR-25

No dog in this fight, but I thought I'd play devils advocate and say that the US govt procurement process these days is leaning heavily on sustainment and logistics, which isn't the sexy topic opined about in magazines and such. That fact tends to favor weapons systems that have a stronger manufaturer's support system already in place.

I'd venture that since KAC has been providing rifles for the military for quite some time, the govt has no problem tipping them their hat when it comes down to new procurement. It's like the easy girlfriend of yore that has always come through as a sure bet when you need it most.

Accuracy and reliability are paramount, but don't overlook that Uncle Sam nowadays considers supportability in the long haul as a measure of life cycle value. Cheesy yes, but have you recently seen the Acquisition wall chart?
 
Re: SR-25

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skinney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

koz- site your source. </div></div>

PM sent
 
Re: SR-25

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CTone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No dog in this fight, but I thought I'd play devils advocate and say that the US govt procurement process these days is leaning heavily on sustainment and logistics, which isn't the sexy topic opined about in magazines and such. That fact tends to favor weapons systems that have a stronger manufaturer's support system already in place.

I'd venture that since KAC has been providing rifles for the military for quite some time, the govt has no problem tipping them their hat when it comes down to new procurement. It's like the easy girlfriend of yore that has always come through as a sure bet when you need it most.

Accuracy and reliability are paramount, but don't overlook that Uncle Sam nowadays considers supportability in the long haul as a measure of life cycle value. Cheesy yes, but have you recently seen the Acquisition wall chart? </div></div>

pretty sure that is not how it happens. All large gov orders go through the multi competitor bid system, with several competitors. From my understanding the KAC beat out many others. Cost is a factor but not a great one as usually, there is a set amount of money set aside for the order and as long as all come in under that number there is no issues.
 
Re: SR-25

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally Posted By: Stellite
"All large gov orders go through the multi competitor bid system, with several competitors"</div></div>

You're right. If the govt didn't do that, they would open themselves up to a lawsuit.

While there is an open competition between potential manufacturers, there is more to it than one event. KAC got to shoot it out with any of the other manufacturers that could meet the requirements, but a contract isn't just awarded after one test. Behind the scenes the government has lots of considerations beyond accuracy and reliability. What good is an accurate rifle if its spare parts are hard to make or can't be supported? The sticker price of a weapon is often the least expensive cost, and cost takes a back seat to overall value.

And I'm not saying that DPMS, Armalite, or whomever can't support their product. I'm sure they can, but the amount of thought that goes into chosing equipment be it a rifle or a sonar device takes years.
 
Re: SR-25

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: koz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skinney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

koz- site your source. </div></div>

PM sent </div></div>

thanks, i was looking for those.