St Louis riot
- Thread starter Forgetful Coyote
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Yup, that guy gets it.
It would help if we knew what happened but of course we don't really know what happened because the police force there doesn't want cameras. How do I know? I see millions upon millions of dollars in military equipment, camo, armored vehicles , etc etc arrayed against the people in that town, but there's no money to document what their officers actually do everyday, we just gotta trust them. Spare no expense for items that physically protect the police, but no money for items that protect the rights of the people. Just because there are some animals who take advantage of a situation and loot doesn't mean there isn't room for righteous anger here as there are plenty of examples of totally unjustified aggression by police in this country. There will be more and more unrest as Americans wake up to the armies on their streets.
It would help if we knew what happened but of course we don't really know what happened because the police force there doesn't want cameras. How do I know? I see millions upon millions of dollars in military equipment, camo, armored vehicles , etc etc arrayed against the people in that town, but there's no money to document what their officers actually do everyday, we just gotta trust them. Spare no expense for items that physically protect the police, but no money for items that protect the rights of the people. Just because there are some animals who take advantage of a situation and loot doesn't mean there isn't room for righteous anger here as there are plenty of examples of totally unjustified aggression by police in this country. There will be more and more unrest as Americans wake up to the armies on their streets.
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Police forces get a lot of those things from the military. For an extremely discounted price.
Never really understood why people get so upset about this. If they didn't basically give it away to LEO, people would be bitching about it all sitting in warehouses collecting dust. The cries of waste would be coming from the same people upest that the stuff is being used. I'm glad our government is at least finding another use for it, instead of trashing it like they usually do.
Auctioning on govliquidation.com or similar would be a more responsible use of our resources. Export restrictions would be a good idea on some items.
More on gear; I saw a video this morning of looters toting off a bunch of chrome wheels.
“When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe."
Luke 11:21
Victory, normally I would agree as I don't like to see the material go to waste; however, having a militarized Police Force and, with their I am going to Kick Butt attitude, I don't see it going well for us in the future. Just seeing the SWAT guys using MRAP's is going to lead to an over use and the attitude of tyranny. I don't like what I am seeing in the Police Forces in America. Their attitude of helping its citizens seems to have turned into an us against them attitude. I live in a small county and even our local Sheriff's office has an armored vehicle it got from the federal government.
The U.S. is starting the spiral of the Police Force using their new found power and the citizens that are getting ticked off and starting to fight back and that is not what I want to see happen. But, as the spiral continues more and more situations like this are going to occur, and the Police who use this type of overwhelming force, will find it more difficult to do Police work after this is all over. Who will trust them again?
For us that have spent time in the sand gaining the support of the local populace is rule number 1. Kicking down doors in the middle of the night and slinging CS at the populace does not gain the trust and support of the locals. When it comes down to it, in America, we live in villages with local leadership...it's just not that much different than an counter-insurgency strategy.
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What irks me more than the MRAPs are the ass hats sitting on top of them, AIMING their rifles at people.
What happened to rule #2 as in NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY.
This comes from the same folks who train ad nauseam (on my tax dollars) how to avoid sweeping each other.
But I guess the 'us' vs. 'them' mentality makes the difference here.
What happened to rule #2 as in NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY.
This comes from the same folks who train ad nauseam (on my tax dollars) how to avoid sweeping each other.
But I guess the 'us' vs. 'them' mentality makes the difference here.
I never said the actions were appropriate, just that giving a bunch of beat up MRAPs, that have no logistical support, really isn't that big of a deal. Half of them will be turned into scrap metal in a year or two because they can't keep them running or find any replacement parts for them.
As for ferguson, do you guys even know what an MRAP is? I've looked for days and haven't seen on there. I've seen civilian Bearcats, but no MRAPs. So where is this overwhelming militarization? Some officers have AR's? They have had those for a long time. How about the gas mask and kevlars? Yup those have been around. The only truly offensive thing is the dumbasses are all wearing camo like they think they are door kicking trigger pullers. Seems like they have been using non-leathal methods to disperse the crowds. No old school riot ass whippings. Maybe using CS isn't the right thing, but those same people complaining about that would be crying if they got out the shields and riot sticks to start dispersing the crowds. Maybe I can just look past all the hype and rhetoric. Anyway, if you guys ever see one of those scary MRAPs, post the pic.
As for ferguson, do you guys even know what an MRAP is? I've looked for days and haven't seen on there. I've seen civilian Bearcats, but no MRAPs. So where is this overwhelming militarization? Some officers have AR's? They have had those for a long time. How about the gas mask and kevlars? Yup those have been around. The only truly offensive thing is the dumbasses are all wearing camo like they think they are door kicking trigger pullers. Seems like they have been using non-leathal methods to disperse the crowds. No old school riot ass whippings. Maybe using CS isn't the right thing, but those same people complaining about that would be crying if they got out the shields and riot sticks to start dispersing the crowds. Maybe I can just look past all the hype and rhetoric. Anyway, if you guys ever see one of those scary MRAPs, post the pic.
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Those aren't MRAPs.
I edited my post because they were sitting with rifles not pepper ball guns after a closer look.
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because i never wanted my police to be like my military. Frankly, i think the fact that police "armor up" just makes everyone else do the same.
Thanks, I could not find the photos quickly. Can we agree that AIMING lethal weapons at a crowd of demonstrators is at least a very bad PR move.
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If you think the police are going to stick with 1950s gear, tactics, and technology while everyone else in the world graduates to newer better things, you have lost your mind. As technology increases and becomes available, police and civilians alike will purchase those things.
victory is correct they are Bearcats in Missouri but I am not just talking about this particular incident it is much larger than this occurrence. It is the way Police forces view point of the ones they are supposed to serve. I have been all over the world and seen lots of demonstrations and ours are beginning to look a lot like rest of the world. It's a shame!
Maggot, yep they have one...it's parked out back in their parking lot.
Maggot, yep they have one...it's parked out back in their parking lot.
Our riots are tame compared to years ago. I guess history isn't something we need to use anymore when talking about current events. Some of you need to put this into context of past riots. It has been pretty well contained with minimal injury or death as compared to previous riots. Maybe you are all watching too much hyped media and are giving into the media panic and sensationalization of it all.
I thought I should add this list of deadly riots with their death tolls. Seems like we are getting better, not worse.
100 – New York Draft Riots (New York City, 1863)
53 – Los Angeles riots (1992)
43 – Attica Prison riots (New York, 1971)
39+ – Tulsa Race Riot, (Tulsa, Oklahoma, 1921)
34 – Watts Riot (Los Angeles, 1965)
20 – Ludlow Massacre (Ludlow, Colorado, 1914)
5 – Greensboro massacre (Greensboro, North Carolina, 1979)
4 – Kent State shootings (Kent, Ohio, 1970)
I thought I should add this list of deadly riots with their death tolls. Seems like we are getting better, not worse.
100 – New York Draft Riots (New York City, 1863)
53 – Los Angeles riots (1992)
43 – Attica Prison riots (New York, 1971)
39+ – Tulsa Race Riot, (Tulsa, Oklahoma, 1921)
34 – Watts Riot (Los Angeles, 1965)
20 – Ludlow Massacre (Ludlow, Colorado, 1914)
5 – Greensboro massacre (Greensboro, North Carolina, 1979)
4 – Kent State shootings (Kent, Ohio, 1970)
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i dont think anyone thinks they should be 1950's gear. but 1950's tactics... yeah id like that. In 1950 cops had guns. cops shot bad guys. Cops didnt do dynamic entries and shoot your dog becuase the neighbor thought you smoked pot. In 1950's an officer was viewed as friendly and helpful... At least if you were white. I guess it really comes down to the wants of society and this isnt any different. Some people want the police to be tough, to take down all those criminals.. Somehow we lost the connection between asking police to do everything and the realization that to do what we ask they have to change arms and tactics. Maybe we got what we asked for? But we keep making everything illegal. I think your right in essence, but its sad. Eventually, someone somehwere is going to cross a line and a lot of guys just doing there job are going to get really hurt. I hope it doesnt happen, but i dont understand how it cant. If everyone keeps arming up, sooner or later barrels will get warm.
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just a quick point... I think that mandatory and large sentences played a large part in gangs/minor criminals arming up. If i knew i was going to jail for 20 years because I was 3rd strike, or had a dime bag.... I think fighting back would probably be on top of my list also. Add id use the best thing i had to do it. Even worse, effectively serving a life sentence for a financial transaction? Um yeah. It seems that time and time again this alwyas points back to drug war and some people wanting to put someone else in jail. Usually for something they themselves do, but privately. But isnt this what we asked for? As a society, we keep screaming that we care about individuals rights.. But do everything we can to take them away from others. And not only that, but fuck with my idea of whats right or wrong and i want you in jail forever... Live and let live a little maybe?
Let's not forget that in Ferguson, it very likely IS "us" vs. "them." In certain neighborhoods, there will always be a dozen "witnesses" ready to swear up and down that the suspect "dint do nuthin' wrong!" That holds as true in trashy mobile home parks as in Ferguson. In those areas, you are likely to be targeted for not being one of "them." If you have more or better cars or houses, or a different skin color, you're an acceptable victim.
Secondly, if you read some of the news, these "protesters" are armed and firing. When a "protest" gets to the point that it harbors armed attacks on law enforcement, whether firearms or molotovs, whether firing at individuals or a helicopter, you've passed the point where in the those "good old days" the police would have returned fire. The protests probably didn't get to that point before because the average yahoo knew he'd get the wrong end of a hickory stick for being involved in a "protest" with property damage and looting. That sort of "nip it in the bud" attitude isn't PC these days, and like spoiled children, the mob is allowed to loot and riot at will. You also don't see the old school of calling out the National Guard. Mayors and governors have visions of Kent State and panic at the mere suggestion. It's a career-ender for a politician to do that, and they know it. That leaves your "friendly" local LE in the position of having to fill that role. The local guys are in a no-win situation, facing an uncontrollable mob that hasn't had the kind of immediate consequences necessary to show that this won't be tolerated. The new policy among LE agencies is generally not to interfere with the mob, but arrest those who are seen committing crimes, and use gas on them when they get too aggressive.
If your storefront is getting looted, well, that's not an emergency under the "hands off" policy. If your neighborhood is rioting, they'll just cordon it off, sit tight, armor up, and wait while it burns. You can't have 1950's tactics and try to apply them to these crowds. You would have to have that 1950's baseline of discipline, where you'd get a nightstick beating for any act of riot. That's not PC anymore, and if you try that, you get fired, if not go to jail.
Secondly, if you read some of the news, these "protesters" are armed and firing. When a "protest" gets to the point that it harbors armed attacks on law enforcement, whether firearms or molotovs, whether firing at individuals or a helicopter, you've passed the point where in the those "good old days" the police would have returned fire. The protests probably didn't get to that point before because the average yahoo knew he'd get the wrong end of a hickory stick for being involved in a "protest" with property damage and looting. That sort of "nip it in the bud" attitude isn't PC these days, and like spoiled children, the mob is allowed to loot and riot at will. You also don't see the old school of calling out the National Guard. Mayors and governors have visions of Kent State and panic at the mere suggestion. It's a career-ender for a politician to do that, and they know it. That leaves your "friendly" local LE in the position of having to fill that role. The local guys are in a no-win situation, facing an uncontrollable mob that hasn't had the kind of immediate consequences necessary to show that this won't be tolerated. The new policy among LE agencies is generally not to interfere with the mob, but arrest those who are seen committing crimes, and use gas on them when they get too aggressive.
If your storefront is getting looted, well, that's not an emergency under the "hands off" policy. If your neighborhood is rioting, they'll just cordon it off, sit tight, armor up, and wait while it burns. You can't have 1950's tactics and try to apply them to these crowds. You would have to have that 1950's baseline of discipline, where you'd get a nightstick beating for any act of riot. That's not PC anymore, and if you try that, you get fired, if not go to jail.
Drugs, and the addictions that result from them, are responsible for most of the crime in my region. The sentencing isn't the issue there. It's a chicken-before-egg scenario. The people using drugs are the ones stealing your car to finance the habit. The sentences came to try to prevent the crime, but a drug addict has so little capability for long-term thinking that the sentences usually fail to have any effect. They'll steal your car regardless of whether it is a month or five years. No one believes they're going to get caught until they actually do.
I wouldn't be opposed to legalizing drugs under two conditions: there will be no welfare system to support any non-working addicts, and any and all injuries or crime resulting from the use of impairing substances will result in draconian corporal and capital punishments that include labor camps, loss of a hand or other limb, or death. Use your drugs in quiet and you're fine. Fail to work, you starve. Turn to crime, become a forced laborer, maimed, or a corpse. More personal freedom, plus far harsher penalties for harm to others. What happened to the flogging post, the pillory, and the stocks? A good dose of public shame will straighten out a lot of idiots who are beginning to go downhill.
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What happened to water cannon trucks ? They seemed to cool hot heads down and were also handy for extinguishing fires.
Oddly enough, they were non-PC because they soaked people and knocked them down...so they fell out of favor. Why, when they worked so well? Or was it BECAUSE they worked so well that they were protested and declared "inhumane"?
Interestingly enough, most of Europe still uses water cannons, and their anti-riot tactics are far harsher than ours. It's an odd contrast, since they're so PC on a lot of things.
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I would venture that its not the drug addict thats packing high end weapons that make police need tanks. Its drug dealers. Just like it wasnt alcoholics running the streets when Capone was around. "Crime" rates are always high when you make what people do criminal. I agree that large or mandatory sentences on users is pointelss to people that are that far gone. But not to the ones we are referring to. Heres a question. If drugs were legal would crime be high? would tens of thousands of people be in jail? I submit that if we stopped making everything illegal then maybe people wouldnt be criminals. I end up standing jury duty a lot, i know, im one of those that wont try and get out of it. In the week long assignment i got last time (grand jury) 90 percent of what came in front of us was drug related. Buying or selling. Out of at least 100 cases. Now every single one of those people are probably going to get convicted and go to jail. If drugs werent illegal we would have had like 4 cases.... Seriously. Also since its illegal a LOT of money is at play and you have no access to the legal system to protect it. Own a legal business and something happens? insurance and lawsuits settle it. Drug dealer, cant got to courts for redress or protection so it falls onto them. Hence Guns.
On the second point, why do they have to be draconian? Cant they be the same as alcohol related? Is it becuase its "drugs" that somehow we must punish people to elevated levels for stupididty? I agree on the no welfare part, but i agree on that point for anyone. Let alone those who waste thier life. But doing what your saying just adds to my last point. If I know im going to be hammered especially hard or in a draconian way, then im going to try very hard not to get caught. It kind of reminds me of the gun law stuff where they say if you kill someone with a gun its an extra 5 years.. Why the fuck is that? is the person any less dead if you used a knife or bat? And in Atlanta its ANY CRIME and have a gun extra 5 years. SO now i have a gun, and your telling me not only am i going to jail for whatever, but since i used a gun its an extra 5 years...um.... nope.
Feel free to come riot in white peoples' neighborhoods......in southern Utah.
You'd be outnumbered and everyone over the age of 8 has a weapon.
You'd be outnumbered and everyone over the age of 8 has a weapon.
Haven't read every post here but my $.02.
MLK was a leader, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are the worst things to ever happen to black people. Where do you think those two get their money, it is from poor black people who they have brainwashed into believing they are on their side. I truly doubt any successful black people give them any money. Sharpton and Jackson need to keep "their people" repressed, it would be "bad for business" for them to let the poor black people wake up and see the light.
MLK was a leader, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are the worst things to ever happen to black people. Where do you think those two get their money, it is from poor black people who they have brainwashed into believing they are on their side. I truly doubt any successful black people give them any money. Sharpton and Jackson need to keep "their people" repressed, it would be "bad for business" for them to let the poor black people wake up and see the light.
And..., some men just want to watch the world burn...
I know from personal experience that there's a lot of this stuff permanently incubating in the Inner Cities.
1967 Newark NJ riots -
My family and I hung in and remained living in Newark until the early 1990's. My own activities centered around making a living and running an 'Inner City' Boy Scout Troop.
Greg
I know from personal experience that there's a lot of this stuff permanently incubating in the Inner Cities.
1967 Newark NJ riots -
My family and I hung in and remained living in Newark until the early 1990's. My own activities centered around making a living and running an 'Inner City' Boy Scout Troop.
Greg
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If, in fact ,mandatory sentences were long-without the possibility of parole, after the first two long trips to prison, the criminal(s) would be around 60 years old. It isn't mandatory sentencing, but relatively short stays, or no stay at all, they keeps putting criminals back on the streets to do what they do, be criminals.
Murder, rape, kidnapping... 100% with you. Use drugs and go to jail for forever? You got to understand that not everyone that commits a crime is a drug kingpin/mass murderer. When everything is made illegal, we are all criminals. Just in the last couple years i personally saw 1 guy wait a year for trial becuase they couldnt afford bail. Jury was hung, sohe got off butwas facing 15 years on a bullshit charge to begin with. 19 year old kid.I was the foreman on that jury and i can tell you, was insane what the state tried to do. I also have a friend that did 10 years federal (on a plea none the less) for posession. And i can tell you, that fat MF did nothing but sit in his basement and smoke. And for that, we as society feel that its necessary to take his house, money, family and put him in jail for really long time.. I can't see the justice in that.
I have a feeling that this "nip it in the bud before it gets going" was exactly what the cops were doing over the past few days after that first night. Shut the shit down before it got out of hand once again. Everybody saying "we didnt do shit and they just started shooting tear gas", well those cops were thinking(IMO only) that "if we dont stop this shit now, Sunday night looting, fires, etc... will get going again". We werent there to feel the mood of what was going on, they were. Im not saying what they did was right or justified, but we arent, and the media isnt, in their shoes and the media, and us, arent trying to keep an angry mob(no matter how "peaceful" they keep trying to say they, the mob, were) at bay or to keep them from "jumping off the cliff" so to speak, yet again. So the police thought they needed to quell the mob before things got going, ok, I get it, and, like their tactics or not, they worked and they kept an all out riot and looting from happening again.
Now the state troopers have been brought in and the county and various cities that were called in to help have been sent home. And it appears last night, from the media reports, that all the people were in the streets singing koombaya or some shit like that. I dont know if I believe that either.
Im waiting until they release the details of what happened(if they can ever really figure it out) and see what the angry mob does then and see how the state troopers will react. The next step is the national guard.
Yep I see it now, guess they were just a few mins behind getting it up in print online. Thanks.
Idiot!! Do you actually think there is a book in Ferguson let alone a bookstore!
I don't want to be a dick...
But you have to be a fucking idiot to threaten your freedom and life over $50 worth of Swisher Sweets.
How many blunts can you roll when you're dead? None, that's how many.
But you have to be a fucking idiot to threaten your freedom and life over $50 worth of Swisher Sweets.
How many blunts can you roll when you're dead? None, that's how many.
Most of the bewitching hour clients of the Harris County Hospital ER during my sojourn there in the 80's fell under one of two professed categories: W.D.S.M.O.B (walking down street, minding own business), S.I.B.M.O.B. (sitting in bar.......). Yet another close shave with Occam's Razor.
According to reports the protest has totally changed character now that the state police have taken over. The state police took a softer approach, put away the .mil equipment and snipers on armored vehicles/tear gas etc. Serious question...did the unilateral de-escalation that the state police did actually lead to de-esacalation on the part of the protesters? I think it did. I think if the camo guys were still out there on the trucks pointing rifles at people that this thing would still be rockin.
I wonder if breaking up a protest with force or threat of force is more likely to enrage rather than contain violence these days in the age of twitter and social media. I think the protestors looked like the idiots they were while the images were of them looting and acting like fools, but when the 82nd airborne showed up the whole feel of the story and sympathies changed because the visuals all changed. You have people in t-shirts and mothers holding babies standing across from guys that look like they dropped in from afghanistan. Perhaps it is time to fight smarter not harder these days. What would that look like/how could that be accomplished?
This was a close run thing...all it would have took was a protestor in the crowd shooting one of those cops and we could easily have had a kent state times ten. Had the police opened up with automatic weapons from armored vehicles after taking some potshots who would win in the long run?
I am adamantly against the militarization of the police mostly because of the potential threat to the citizenry but also because I think it makes them worse rather than better at their jobs. I am absolutely positive that people act differently based on how they are dressed, as silly as that sounds it has been my experience whether in the military or civilian business, it just changes things. When the bros "gear up" it totally changes their mindset, and that can work for you or against you depending on what your job is. On a military mission it helps; when I was geared up and strapping in to a fighter you can bet my mindset was turning to combat, I even felt more lethal. In my opinion on a policing call this same phenomenon leads to bad judgment and makes it easier to act as a soldier than a police officer. When we make ourselves look like tough guys we tend to act more like tough guys and do things like the two officers who arrested the two journalists, roughing one of them up, because they didn't pack their things fast enough. Im sure the chief loved that one.
I wonder if breaking up a protest with force or threat of force is more likely to enrage rather than contain violence these days in the age of twitter and social media. I think the protestors looked like the idiots they were while the images were of them looting and acting like fools, but when the 82nd airborne showed up the whole feel of the story and sympathies changed because the visuals all changed. You have people in t-shirts and mothers holding babies standing across from guys that look like they dropped in from afghanistan. Perhaps it is time to fight smarter not harder these days. What would that look like/how could that be accomplished?
This was a close run thing...all it would have took was a protestor in the crowd shooting one of those cops and we could easily have had a kent state times ten. Had the police opened up with automatic weapons from armored vehicles after taking some potshots who would win in the long run?
I am adamantly against the militarization of the police mostly because of the potential threat to the citizenry but also because I think it makes them worse rather than better at their jobs. I am absolutely positive that people act differently based on how they are dressed, as silly as that sounds it has been my experience whether in the military or civilian business, it just changes things. When the bros "gear up" it totally changes their mindset, and that can work for you or against you depending on what your job is. On a military mission it helps; when I was geared up and strapping in to a fighter you can bet my mindset was turning to combat, I even felt more lethal. In my opinion on a policing call this same phenomenon leads to bad judgment and makes it easier to act as a soldier than a police officer. When we make ourselves look like tough guys we tend to act more like tough guys and do things like the two officers who arrested the two journalists, roughing one of them up, because they didn't pack their things fast enough. Im sure the chief loved that one.
