Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

thefiremeister

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Nov 7, 2009
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Whats the difference, on paper, between the standard primer compared to match and BR primers?

If you do a ladder test with match grade primers to make up a load and then do the same test with different primers do the results come out alot different?
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

Really, benchrest primers are supposed to me made with more attention in manufacturing. I use CCI primers and I still use BR-2s for my .308 because I'm still being anal about it because it's so new. In .223, I can't tell the difference between the benchrest and standard primers at all. I've seen no differences in accuracy or velocity.

Once I get my load worked out for my .308, I'll then test with standard primers and see if I NEED to stick with them.
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

I know the Match primes are a whole bunch more than standard.

I dont want to be a tight ass but if there is not a big difference at targets out to say 6 or 7 hundred yards I'd rather spend the money on ammo and practice.
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

The difference in price between regular LR primers and match LR primers run .005 and .007 cents more per primer.

The big money savings can be had in the selection of bullets, brass, and powder, not primer types.....

YMMV and IMHO,

Bob

 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

BR primers contain a rare blend of powdered unicorn hoof which aids in getting your SD down to a reasonable level.
No one denies this!
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My chronograph and targets say there is no difference, but my wallet sure can tell a difference. </div></div>

Same here. No different in Fed 210/215 primers and the 210M/215M in my rifles.
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

Bart Bobbitt 1993:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From: [email protected] (Bart Bobbitt)
Subject: Re: [RELOADING] What makes Bench Rest Primers special?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site

`Benchrest' primers are typically more uniform in their ignition
characteristics than `standard' primers. The process of mixing the
lead styphnate (the explosive), glass frit (the microscopic glass
particles that act as micro-anvils for the styphnate to compress
against) and a couple of other things is a kind of `black magic.'
About two quarts of this priming mixture is mixed together for each
lot of primers. Getting the mixture homogenous (uniform percentages)
throughout the gooey mixture is difficult. This mixture is spread
on a plate with little recesses in it that are the shape of the
primer pellet. Getting exactly the same amount in each little round,
deep hole is also a type of `black magic.' The mixture is much like
putty and a large putty-knife like tool is used to force the mixture
into each hole where it's left to dry. Then the dried primer pellets
are punched out and put in primer cups, topped with a sealer, and
finally the three-legged anvil is pressed in place.

Interestingly enough, some folks do a better job of mixing and spreading
the mixture than others. Within each lot of several thousand primers,
there's bound to be differences in the ignition characteristics from one
primer to the next. As more care is needed to make `uniform' primers,
they usually cost more.

By uniformity, I mean the consistancy of velocity they produce. Velocity
tests of the bullet is about the best test of primer uniformity. Some
very uniform lots of primers will produce a velocity spread of only 15 fps.
At the other end of the spectrum are primers that produce velocity spreads
of 100 fps, or more. Some folks have tested primer uniformity by shooting
BBs from a primed case (no powder) in a 17 caliber barrel; primers that
produce low velocity spreads with BBs do the same with powder and bullets.
Uniform primers tend to produce more uniform pressure curves, too.

Alas, not all the `benchrest' primers are as good as they're marketed to
be. Many times a standard primer will be more uniform than benchrest ones.
And some makes of benchrest primers aren't as uniform as another make of
standard primer. Even some standard primer brands are more uniform than
any benchrest brand. Some benchrest primers are hotter than their standard
versions for the same make.

In many accuracy situations, a milder, standard primer will produce better
groups than a hotter benchrest primer.

BB
</div></div>

The post that drew my attention to Bart in 1997:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From: Joe Dioso ([email protected])
Subject: Bart Bobbitt: 20-shot 3.325" group at 800 yards
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Date: 1997/05/10

Leafing through my copy of the May 1997 issue of Precision Shooting, I
encountered an ad for Krieger Barrels, Inc. that showed an actual-size
copy of a 20-shot group shot at 800 yards by "Bert Bobbit [sic] with
his Krieger Barrelled PALMA rifle." Now this group has a .942" mean
radius, with an extreme spread of 3.325. If it were a 5-shot group,
you'd say, "Somebody else has shot that well at 1,000 yards." But a
20-shot group? God!! </div></div>
I believe this is the group he shot
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

Some people F class international team types, did alot of testing with Wolf primers both standard and LMR ( LMG has brass cup not hotter. Found them more constant preformance than Fed 210M or BR2.

They have preformed great, just be sure to seat them all the way to contact, a little shorter and larger dia.
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Alas, not all the `benchrest' primers are as good as they're marketed to
be. Many times a standard primer will be more uniform than benchrest ones.
And some makes of benchrest primers aren't as uniform as another make of
standard primer. Even some standard primer brands are more uniform than
any benchrest brand. Some benchrest primers are hotter than their standard
versions for the same make.

In many accuracy situations, a milder, standard primer will produce better
groups than a hotter benchrest primer.

BB</div></div>
This is the part that makes it all so difficult. I think if your paying for "match" primers they should be consistently consistent.
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

To many variables....

From the Handloader Magazine article on "Developing The Most Accurate .308 Winchester Load" Using all the available ( brass, primers, 165-168gr bullets, one known specific powder charge for all the combinations...( way to much info to explain...just do yourself a favor and order a copy of the magazine, Dec. '08 Handloader Magazine

Long story short... ultimately the primer made for up to a 1/3 of an inch difference... NOTE !!! In his rifle and with the best of everything, the most accurate brass ( in his rifle..), bullet ( in his rifle..), powder ( in his rifle..),
primer..

I don't remember if it was a "Match" primer or not.. but it did show how much difference the components did make. Dramatic differences from the accumulated changes. ( best of the best - worst of the worst )

So for an answer to your question.... maybe.
Would I use them to start with on a load development...yes
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bfoosh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To many variables....
Long story short... ultimately the primer made for up to a 1/3 of an inch difference... </div></div>

At what range?
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

I sure wish you could "know" your going to get 1/3 inch smaller groups if you use brand x versus brand a.

One more thing to keep in the tool box for load development.
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pyrolater</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I sure wish you could "know" your going to get 1/3 inch smaller groups if you use brand x versus brand a.

One more thing to keep in the tool box for load development.

</div></div>
Don't forget, that decrease in group size was for the .308 Winc. going from worse case scenario to best... and as usual "results will vary in your rifle.."

I don't have the article in front of me... after I get home I'll post what the "best" combo from his rifle was. I'd give it a try in your rifle. Otherwise, I'm not sure I'll ever find the "best" .308 load.

If you want to see more on the whole "your results may vary"...) Read this re-print from Speer http://www.leverguns.com/articles/ballisticians.htm Note the differences in velocities... even from identical brand firearms.

Moral... to many varibles..you can try other peoples loads, and you might find they work great.

 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bfoosh</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pyrolater</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

</div></div>
Don't forget, that decrease in group size was for the .308 Winc. going from worse case scenario to best... and as usual "results will vary in your rifle.."
Moral... to many varibles..you can try other peoples loads, and you might find they work great.

</div></div>

Yep, to that point author switched from a new turd Remington 700 VLS to a Sako TRG 22 in order to get the results. A 22 will damn near shoot anything you can put together into 1/2". Plus the guy built a "special" bench etc.
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

I actually shoot better with the cci 7.62 military primery then the cci bench rest primers using my .308 it goes from moa to sub moa. br2 at 300 yrds is moa w/ 3" groups 7.62 military primers @ 300 yrds is about 1-2" groups.
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

I have read a couple of times over the years (please dont ask me find it)that the difference is only in the guy who actually makes them on the factory floor. They take the most experienced/competent guy and call his batch "match" and charge a bit more. Since no one has ever been able to produce a measured differences between match and regular primers of the same brand it sounds pretty reasonable.
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

My .02

We have used about every primer on the list, dedicated 1000y BR to run and gun rifles.

Can't really say that a BR/match grade primer really makes any dif.

There are many other factors in the game. We now run std primers in all of our loads.

My humble opinion,,,,LOL, I know what they smell like
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

My experience has been that BR primers seem to be not as hard as standard primers. That is just my experience as I have had BR primers detonate a couple of times when priming cases. I have never had it happen with a standard primer or a FGM primer. Just the CCI BR primers.
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

I do my rough load development with standard primers. It's more economical, and gives me a baseline against which to improve upon in the final development stage.

The step up from standard to match primers is my final step. Very often, I find that it creates no significant improvement.

Depending upon the degree of criticality my application will require, I will choose primers accordingly.

Greg
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned so far in this thread is that different brands of primers can make as much as a 100fps difference in a load. When switching primers, make sure you drop back and work up.
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

I never could tell any difference in the way they shoot. With the primer shortage I was using any match available to light the fire. They are starting to make a recovery now though.
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: onlyfineknives</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing that I haven't seen mentioned so far in this thread is that different brands of primers can make as much as a 100fps difference in a load. When switching primers, make sure you drop back and work up. </div></div>

quoted for truth. I have witnessed this when running loads over my chronograph
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

I did an informal test a few years ago with my GAP 308. I had developed a good load for it with Varget and 210M primers. I then did a comparison with that load and 210M, 210 and Wolf primers. 5 - 5 shot groups with each primer, total of 15 groups. The 210's were very close with the match primers a hair better. Averaging about a half inch. The Wolf primers averaged about 3/4 in. Now I guess you coul say that my load was accurized for the 210's and maybe a different weight of powder would show better results for the Wolf. So I just stuck with the Federals.
I wished I had tested the CCI's at the time but didn't have any. I do use CCI's in my 6.5 Lapua with great results. I guess whatever works stick with it.
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

I tried different Fed primers in a really good .308 load in my Palma match gun using H4895 and 168 SMK's. I tested Fed 210, 210M even 215M at 300 yards. They all shot great. They all shot the same.

+1 "I guess whatever works stick with it."
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

I asked this same questiong when I was handed CCI Br2's and CCI 200's I was told in preformance they are both g2g. He said most people wont ever notice the difference.
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

I was doing load development with IMR 8208 XBR for my Rem. 700 .308. I was using CCI BR-2 primers and could barely get under an inch. I threw in some CCI 200s with the same charge and it tightened up a bit.

I was later messing with some IMR 4895 and the same thing happened, CCI 200s and Rem. 9 1/2s tightened the groups up but so did Fed. GM primers. I can't really explain but out of the 4 primers I tried the BR-2s were the worst, the Rem. and Fed. were equally good and the 200s were just a tick off. Again, I can't explain.

I've read about the technical differences between reg. vs. BR/match but I don't really know how that translates practically. What I THINK may be the case is that reg. primers work better with faster powders, like 8208 and, although a bit slower, IMR 4895 than BR primers do but at the same time, i've read others who get diff. results. The way to check this further is to try a slower powder like R-15 with both kinds of primers. R-15 is the next powder i'm going to try so we'll see.

With all that said....don't worry about it, just try them all and pick the best one. Why ask why?
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

The reason I asked the question was to get what I got and that is some great info and insight from people that have already tried both in their load development.

I'm still kinda new to this so I'm trying to minimize my rookie mistakes. Once I get a good load made up I'm sure I'll tinker with it to see what happens but at least now I know there is no magic primers out there.

I'll most likely use standard primers to start with and save some money to spend on more bullets and powder.
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

Thats a pretty good plan. I usually pick a primer to start with, figure out the best powder charge and then just throw in diff. primers to see which does the best. I'm fairly new to reloading and one of the first things I learned is that there is a vast number of variables and it all depends on what, to you, is good enough. Some weigh their cases, check the volume and all of that. The guy that taught me to reload doesn't go that far and gets 1 ragged hole by the time he's done working up a load. That said, he doesn't shoot competitively nor does he shoot at extreme range with his life on the line. Reloading is something that you can really be as anal as you want but if you aren't quite anal enough it can be a real headache but you are correct, there are no magic primers for sure.
 
Re: Standard primers versus match and BR prmers

I'm still trying to figure out how anal I want to be when I comes to brass prep.

I've got a bunch of Mil surplus LC brass I'm going to use and I've also got some Lapua.

I'm going to start with 168 gn SMK and the LC brass and then switch to the Lapua after I know the major problems are not me.