Advanced Marksmanship Standard Sizes for Human Dimensions?

[captrichardson]

In doing some curriculum review for an upcoming Basic Sniper Class, we have been looking at training materials from various agencies, both civilian & military, and have been running into some conflicting information.

In terms of standardized measurements for a human target, we have found,
Human Head Side-to-Side / Horizontal – primarily 6”-7”, with an occasional 8”
Human Head Bottom-to-Top / Vertical – primarily 8”-9”, with an occasional 10”
Human Shoulder Width / Horizontal - primarily 18”, with an occasional 20”

With the mix of personnel in the class coming from both a civilian & military background, I am sure that the discussion is going to come up at some point on the variations listed in the different training materials. An obvious explanation would simply be, human measurements vary, but I am sure that someone is going to ultimately say so which numbers do we use?

So is there a given set of measurements that anyone is using, and if so what is your criteria / reason for using them?

Thanks in advance,
M Richardson

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Standard Sizes for Human Dimensions?

use other objects at the same range as the target, ie: door/window opening, street signs, car part ( like wheels )...

but all these are averages, guesses really...

why, in this day and age is anyone milling a target, and that's the only real reason to know exact target size...

get a good LRF, and a spare, get a good spotting scope w/ a reticle that matches your scope adjustments, get a scope w/ matching turrets and reticle...

and a back up for all...

the shots can all be made w/ a fine duplex reticle or target dot, if the spotter is calling correction, the dope is good, and a LRF is used...

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Standard Sizes for Human Dimensions?

<--- Civi

When I think of humanoid dimensions I generally think of

18" shoulder to shoulder
30" torso
70" tall man
65" tall woman

I would not concentrate on the size of a head - it is small and therefore harder to range (margin of error is compounded throughout the equation). Secondly, with respect to the margins found in your data - for both the exercise and proving it to yourself - take those margins and pick 3 MIL reads at random. Calc the distance based on each data subset and your chosen MIL read. Then match up your dope against the results to really get an idea of the 'margin of error'. It might surprise you.

That all said, in urban American it is much easier to run with building materials.

The following are generally pretty standardized:

Roll up doors (industrial)
Man doors
Window sizes
Concrete Block


MILing - anyone should be within 2% -3% out to 1k on common objects with some practice, but as already noted - a LRF is the way to fly. If we're working on skills / backup plans etc, may as well grab a map (yes I think folks should be able to make a pretty good guesstimate with a map too).


Good luck

 

[captrichardson]

Re: Standard Sizes for Human Dimensions?

Thanks for the feedback,

In terms of Ranging,
In the class we teach all forms of ranging, Lasers, Maps, GPS, Reticles, Pacing, anything and everything. We drive home the importance of using as many options as you can for verification. When it comes to having to take the once in a lifetime shot, or having to defend your shot on the stand, we make sure the shooters clearly understand the gravity of the situation and take full advantage of all resources.

In terms of Measurements / Numbers,
Reality is there are very few standards or consistent numbers. Prime example, human measurements can obviously vary greatly. Per some of the comments above, what numbers are you going to use for doors or windows? Just in my neighborhood alone, there are multiple sizes for doors and windows. Take something like a car wheel, they can be anywhere from 14”-16”, not including the custom ones. Is there truly anything in a typical setting that you can really find a standardized size for?

Personally, I use an average or midrange number when I do the math. That is also going to be my recommendation in the upcoming class, but I know I am going to have some of those “black & white", "by the book” students who have been through previous training and are going to be dead set on having to use an exact number, most likely whatever they have been taught in the past.

When I teach, I try to avoid the “because I said so”, or “because the book said so”. I really like to be able to explain everything in clear terms and/or show them a real world example. Per the measurement questions above, I could pull out a ruler and show them what an average range of head measurements would be for the students in the class.

I also make sure that I show the impact of error in ranging, whether it is an error in the reticle reading, or an error in the size of the object measured.

I was asking about the standardized numbers here ultimately in the hopes of getting info on what is being taught out there so that if a student comes in and starts quoting numbers as gospel that I will hopefully already have a heads-up where it is coming from and what is the best way to address it.

Thanks Again!
M Richardson

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Standard Sizes for Human Dimensions?

In addition to maps:

Most people (in LE sniping/counter sniping) overlook city plot sheets.

These are too scale and show buildings, streets, manholes, storm dranage, etc.

Being to scale, they are excellent tools for estimating range in citys and built up areas.

Like maps, they are flat, meaning you can eliminate angles (up/down) calculations.

 

[Mister Ouchie]

Re: Standard Sizes for Human Dimensions?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: captrichardson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I also make sure that I show the impact of error in ranging, whether it is an error in the reticle reading, or an error in the size of the object measured.
</div></div>

I wrote a little app to show exactly that, interactively, mainly for myself to work out what the effects of errors were. It was enlightening! Might be useful for folks. It's at: http://misterouchie.com/2012/05/16/mil-dot-ranging-error-app/

 

[ranger1183]

Re: Standard Sizes for Human Dimensions?

The FAA produced a manual on CD regarding human dimensions. The manual is used by airplane manufacturers to determine space and sizing requirements for seating, etc.

<span style="text-decoration: line-through">For the life of me I can't find it on the web. My google fu is weak.</span>

"The Human Factors Design Guide" is the name of the CD. Chapter 14 is "Anthropometry and biomechanics" which covers human sizes.

 

[captrichardson]

Re: Standard Sizes for Human Dimensions?

Thanks for the feedback, especially that Human Factors Design Guide, that data should pretty much anwer any arguments over what the numbers should be!

Best of Luck,
M Richardson