started to reload and found the oddest thing

[AXEMAN]

ok i have been waiting for powder and a few other things to start reloading. i have 250 prepped cases. tumbled, full length sized and deprimed, reprimed, trimmed, chamfered and deburred. so i bought some varget loaded the measure and started with 40g loads. i had a tray ready and started to place the bullets in the cases to seat them. but the case necks were so loose some of the bullets just fell inside. some i was able to set in there and pull back out by hand. i am using a set of herters dies and they were sold to me as new. i have made dummy rounds using military brass and that was fine, good necck tension. the mil brass being thicker i can see the necks being a smaller ID and holding the bullets. but i resized a few dozen cases a second time and they were still too big to hold the bullet securely. is my die worn out? after sizing, i did trim, chamfer and deburr. that could stretch the cases, but i resized them again and they still didnt hold the bullet securely. im using 168g hpbt speer target match. the sizing die is as far down as i can get it and still have a full stroke. the seating die is also. it doesnt seem to have a crimping capacity as i cannot adjust it to get any kind of crimp on test cases. i have made several test rounds and they were fine, had to use a puller to get them apart, but they were military brass.

before i order a new set of dies, any thoughts? i measured the necks/mouth and spec says it should be 0.343 while mine are 0.335, ID was .307 as was the ball on the decapper. so i was thinking my necks were too thin, but its all 1x fired brass. im not sure whats off here, any thoughts?

 

[bohem]

Re: started to reload and found the oddest thing

Did you turn the necks?

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: started to reload and found the oddest thing

if thats what i think it is, then no, i did not. turning is for concentricity right? not turned down for trimming but to correct run-out is what you mean? i did not do that, i dont have a tool for that yet.

 

[former naval person]

Re: started to reload and found the oddest thing

Did you measure the diameter of the sized neck without the expander ball? You may have sufficient (and not excess) tension with those cases by doing that. If not, the cases may be too thin for that die. When you resize a case, the neck will spring back just a little. Especially when work hardened. I suspect the .307 ball isn't really touching the inside of those necks. You can get a Redding FL die with bushing to load those, or you can get a Lee Collet die, and run them through it after the Herters die to get the necks down to where they will hold a bullet. JMHO

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: started to reload and found the oddest thing

i just checked the rest of the cases i had prepped. the lake city stuff is tight. the Black Hills match is all loose. these last cases i sized 2x and 3x i didnt use the decapper since they are primed cases. so thats as small as the necks gonna get i guess. is that odd? this is my first set of dies so is that gonna be how it is?? lol, i have all the luck. i looked at this set but the description is poor.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=640612

its got a neck sizing die in the set, but it says nothing about bushings. are redding neck sizers all bushing based? must come with just one bushing but it doesnt say.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: started to reload and found the oddest thing

Black Hills has used Winchester brass in the past and some Winchester brass has pretty thin neck walls, so thin that I've been worried that a .332" bushing would even work and a .331" bushing being the better choice.

I just sized 100 Winchester cases, bagged stuff and out of 100, I could twist out one bullet with no effort at all and that was using a .332" bushing. I think that I hit it again and got a little less spring-back, so anything can happen.

The Herters die is not sizing your BH brass down far enough because that BH brass has thin neck walls, regardless of whether Winchester made what you have, or not.

Get a different die and try that.

When I hear 'Herters' I think Model Ts. It's 2010, let's get with the program--Redding bushing dies.

Chris

 

[Advokaten]

Re: started to reload and found the oddest thing

Perhaps it´s been said above but still here it is,

try to resize without the expander ball in place,

that might work,

when done with that lot of brass, get some decent lapua or LC brass it you wish to got that way.

Best regards Chris

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: started to reload and found the oddest thing

Your sizer is behaving like a bushing die with no bushing in it or the wrong bushing in it.

If that is not the case, then if it is a standard sizer you need a ball ended tee gauge and a micrometer to determine the ID of the neck portion of the die. It sounds to be oversized.

Do you have a local smith or machinist you can get to measure the neck ID of your die Axe?

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: started to reload and found the oddest thing

well i dont have anyone to measure it, but i think by the results its just not getting the neck small enough. im more shocked than anything else. i thought a die was a die. thought my bullets shrunk.

so its this one
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=640612

or this one, called an S type?
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=545972

now does the first one have a neck sizer with no option to change that size? and the second one, the S type, that one says in the description that it has bushings available and the full size die does just the body. im just not sure if i should get one of these sets or just a sizing die? id like to get some use out of the hornady & BH match brass. these herters were free, so if i have to buy a set, thats good.


i guess im just wondering if its just related to this die? did i get the wrong die? should i ask for something specific in my next die set? you know what i mean, these say 308 win on them

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: started to reload and found the oddest thing

F/L sizing dies, or even 'neck only' sizing dies can vary from one manufacturer to the next, but I would guesstimate that 'most' will put between .003" and .005" of neck tension on 'most' brands of brass.

Since brass is man made, there will be variations in how thick neck walls will be from one case to the next. In my example above, I had one case out of one hundred which had an unusually thin neck and hence, my .332" Redding bushing was not able to close that neck down, so as to grip the bullet. It's just the luck of the draw, I guess?

Now, some brands of brass are consistently thicker/thinner than the next, so having a few different bushings on hand will help you with the task of applying the proper neck tension by cinching that neck down more narrowly, for a greater grip on whatever caliber of bullet you may be reloading.

For bolt guns and target grade ammo, people here like to apply anywhere from .001"-.002+" of neck tension, by closing down the necks by only that amount.

For gas guns, where you have a jarring and massively heavy bolt/bolt carrier (FN-FAL or HK-91, in my case) slamming into those cartridges while in a magazine and then stripping them off, forcing the nose of the bulet into the feed ramp, you might want to apply anywhere from .003"-.005" of neck tension to help prevent bullet setback. In this case, a bushing which has a smaller hole, might be appropriate.

It's all nuance and trial and error.

One might not even need a specialty bushing die for this application, as is the case with my .223 Redding Neck sizing standard non-bushing die, which puts about .004"-.0045" of tension with most brands of 223 brass.

I've loaded rounds using this neck die and then chambered them three times, measuring the COAL before chambering and then after each chambering and got no more than .001" of bullet setback, so I concluded that this particular die is sufficient to allow me to NOT crimp my bullets, which generally is what people do for gas guns, BUT...I confirmed this through measurements before I proceeded down the road.

Redding S bushing dies come in F/L sizing dies, where the shoulder gets bumped back in the process for one stop shopping and they come in 'S Neck' dies, which do not touch the shoulders of your cases. There are methods to one over the other, but many love to F/L size brass for their gas guns, so a F/L S bushing die with the appropriate bushing will be the safest way to load ammo meant for this type of weapon.

If you're loading all sorts of headstamps, you'll want more bushings. If you only load one brand, a bushing or two might be in order.

In my instance, I have a .332", .333", .334", .335", .336", .338", .339" and a .340" bushing for my .308 caliber weapons. Pretty much all of my bases are covered but for a .331" bushing for a very thinly necked batch of Winchester brass I have on hand.

Since I shoot factory barrels, with wide throats, I use the .339" and .340" bushings to first 'step down' my case mouths before proceeding to the next and final bushing. This requires two steps, or in my case, two separate 'S neck' dies in tandem to save on time. I use a Dillon 550b with a separate 'sizing toolhead' meant only for the sizing process.

Chris

 

[Enios]

Re: started to reload and found the oddest thing

On the BH and the last Winchester brass ( 500 pieces ) I found the necks in most of them would measure .011 which is very thin. I chose to set the neck turner up at .012 and hope it would fill out some with shooting. Problem is I wound up with about half a dozer bushing myself. It's also some of the lightest brass you will find for a 308 so if you work up a load you will have to drop some powder and start over if you go to another type of brass. They will make good cases if you are ready to do a bunch of work on them and buy the tools to do it with. Your not there yet I can tell but you can do a lot of things with neck tension and OAL to make a round more accurate. I love the Redding bushing dies and use the neck dies and Redding body dies almost exclusively with my rifles. I like the body die because I can size my brass and tumble it to clean and get the lube off and then I neck size with no expander and decapp with the neck sizers. If you are game on the bushing dies they suggest measurements on a loaded case at the neck and subtract .001 or .002. If I remember right I think you have a Savage almost like mine and it's a sweat thing when it all comes together. I attempted the lee Collect sizer that I had spindle turned .002 more on the BH's and didn't like the fliers I picked up. I don't have that problem when I turn the necks and use the proper bushing. Now all that being said if you use Lapua, Nosler, or Norma I don't think you will see the problems with the brass I have on hand the Necks are usually within .0005 of the same size but I did find 2 pieces of the last batch of Lapua that 98 pieces were on average .0145 but 2 were .013. I pulled them and put them in my set up brass.

 

["Partridge"]

Re: started to reload and found the oddest thing

axeman i use redding,type s-bushing style neck sizing die.complete set. .336 bushing,lapua brass,.this is just my opinion,you can't go wrong with redding dies.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: started to reload and found the oddest thing

ok i was gonna get the lee collet sizer just to shrink down the necks on the cases i have prepped now. the herters ill keep for the Lake City Match stuff, it sizes those necks just fine. then im getting the redding die set. i was looking at the 3 die set that comes with a neck sizing die. also the 3 die S type that uses a bushing for the neck size. my concern is this, in the 3 die set, the neck size is non adjustable from what i read. but what if i get it and its still not necking down enough? id like to keep it to one operation too. its all for my bolt so i could neck size that, but i get new 1x fired stuff often enough to need the full size die. do you think the redding 3 die will neck me down enough?

 

["Partridge"]

Re: started to reload and found the oddest thing

axeman,the neck sizer s type that will come with the 3 die set you mentioned,uses bushings that you put into the die.they have to be purchased seperatly.they are inexpensive.redding has imformation on there web site explaining how to determine what size bushing you need to order when you order the dieset.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: started to reload and found the oddest thing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: teambarlar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">axeman,the neck sizer s type that will come with the 3 die set you mentioned,uses bushings that you put into the die.they have to be purchased seperatly.they are inexpensive.redding has imformation on there web site explaining how to determine what size bushing you need to order when you order the dieset. </div></div>

now just to be clear, is that the regular 3 die set? this is non-adjustable??

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=640612

or the S type 3 die set? am i correct about the regular die set??

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=545972

i got a collet sizer and it would work, but, my brass is already primed and there is no way short of grinding off the de-capping pin that i can shrink down the necks with this die with out decapping at the same time. hmmm, i will have to play with some other brass i have as well as checking on the price of the decapping rod

 

[Enios]

Re: started to reload and found the oddest thing

Axeman,
....The S bushing dies can have the decapper pin removed and you can resize the primed brass. Bushing in steel are about 12 bucks and the good ones about 20. If you get 3 bushing you can cover most any brass. I have at least 5 for each caliber I load. I got the comp neck seater for the 308 and it can be used for the 708 and 243 also but it will go down far enough on the 708 and 243 to crush the shoulder so you have to be careful in your set up for those two. I use the body die and clean my case with primers in and decap and neck size with the neck sizer. That way I can tumble the lube off and not worry about messing up the neck and digging stuff out of the primer hole. Normally I just size about 3/4th of the neck and that way I have a formed section that will help line up the bullet as straight in the chamber as I can get it.Helped with accuracy a good deal.

The neck thickness of different brands of brass varies enough that there in no way any one die will make it the same tension for all brass. My Lapua, Nosler, and Norma are all pretty much around .015 thick. The Winchester is as thin as .011 in places so I had to turn all of it and the Remington I came across (range brass) was around .013. If brass is bad out from side to side I turn the necks so after doing that to about 300 pieces I've put it back and just loading the Nosler and Lapua until it fails. Just depends on how far you want to go for accuracy. I've found careful brass prep is just as important as load development.