F T/R Competition Starting out in F T/R

skydiver

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Minuteman
Mar 2, 2010
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I am looking to start out in mid range F T/R this summer.
I currently have a Savage 10FCP-K in .308 which has a 24" barrel and a 1 in 10 twist rate.
On my 10FCP-K I have SWFA SS 10x mil-dot scope.
For the bi-pod I have a Harris.
Most of my shooting will be at mid ranges as most matches around my location have 300 to 600 yard ranges.
Right now I have 500 Sierra 168gr matchkings and I realize that these bullets are not good for long range, but up to 600 yards I think they should be good to go in my rifle.
Also I realize that I will have to take the muzzlebrake off of my rifle, but that isn't an issue as it is threaded on as opposed to being welded on.
Also I have a nice shooting mat, mid range spotting scope and a nice bean bag rear rest.
So what do you guys think about this set up for starting out and getting my feet wet?
 
The 10x won't be too bad at 300, but 600 won't be ideal. I am running almost the same setup with the exception I have a vortex viper PST 6-24 on top and I have swapped to the Choate stock. Depending on how many shooters there are if there is enough room to put a space or two between you and another shooter you may be able to shoot with your brake. The place I have shot a few times puts all the braked guys at one end. I shoot with mine and last time there was a braked rifle on both sides of me. Depends on the range rules.

I like the 168's at the shorter range more than the 175's.

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I would not let the 10x scope keep me gaining some experience. go ahead and find some matches. I used a 14X lupey for a couple of years on 1000yd ranges before I upgraded and did not embarress myself doing it. Jump in! the waters fine! You will soon learn what is needed to continue.
 
The best advice for getting into ANY shooting competition is to use what you have and start shooting matches. Find out what you need when your current setup fails you on the line and look at what everyone else uses. You could shoot 1000 yards with a 6x...you likely won't win, but it will get you started.

I recently started shooting FTR with the same rifle, btw (different scope and stock, but same specs). It should be more than adequate. Your gear list is probably more complete than most new shooters anyways.

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I assume that you are handloading your ammo? If yes, food for thought:

- Per above, you can shoot the 168s, but it is going to be a "ballistic dog" compared to a 175-180 grain bullet. Given what goes into proper load workup, I would sell or trade the 168s, and pickup a heavy bullet. When the wind starts blowing, with a .308 shooting 168s, you are going to have to earn every shot the hard way!

- Also per above, some matches will let you shoot with a brake, but legally they should not in F-T/R. If you are going to have to shoot without your Brake, then make sure you do your load workup without the Brake, or at least do some good comparison of your groups both with and without it to see what is going on. Some Rifle / Brake combos will change the group size, so make sure you don't go from shooting sub MOA with the Brake to shooting 2 MOA without it.

Finally, remember to Have Fun & Learn Something! Seen to many people get caught up in the competition aspect, and get way to frustrated just focusing on scores. Compete against yourself, if your scores go up with every new match, then you are winning!
 
Two things from experience:

Sell the 10X right now and buy something with a minimum of 24 power. It's nearly impossible to hold off (compensate for wind without scope adjustments) unless you can clearly see the target rings. A bigger view of the target can ONLY help you. Especially at this stage.

2) You'll learn more in one day shooting a match at 600yds than you will shooting for a year at the 100 yard firing line.

As to your 168s, they will perform fine at the distance you mentioned. It was designed as a 300 meter projectile. While it runs into a wall beyond 800, that shouldn't affect you in the least.
 
While a 168 BTHP will remain stable with the proper load & twist rate out to 800 yards (or maybe beyond), a 168 BTHP is a Ballistic Dog at long range when compared to something such as 178 BTHP.

Per below, you would be giving up a significant advantage by not running a heavier bullet:
Wind drift values for 10 MPH Full Value
168 - 300 yards = 8.08" / 600 yards = 38.07"
178 - 300 yards = 6.40" / 600 yards = 28.51"
If you don't think that 10" makes a difference at 600 yards, more power to you, but don't be surprised with your actual results!

Sorry, but running a 168 at anything beyond 300 yards, is unnecessarily handicapping yourself from the start.
 
I can agree with the statements made for advice to a new shooter but a 168 will win a 600 yard match if the shooter and set up is right no doubt , matches have been won with 155s but most shooters are moving to the heavier bullet , why not if it's in your favor but you have to remember what your rifle likes. And make sure you have the twist for what you want to run

My 1st 600 match was with a x14 lupy and a stock remmy 5r and did ok at my skill lvl then

But +1 what killshot44 said you need decent glass

I'll be running 168 Berger hybrids next match and pushing them pretty hard on the upper end of nod but anything over 168 I'll usually fly them on the low side

if all you have is the 168s don't worry you'll be fine man

Good luck
 
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There are a couple things about 168s that should be made clear for anyone reading this that might not be aware of them. First: the reason Sierra 168 Matchkings don't perform well past 700-800 yd has to do with instability caused by the steep angle boattail design. Notably, this is specific to Sierra 168 gr Matchkings, NOT necessarily other 168 gr match bullets, of which there are some very good ones. Second, the reason the 168 SMK will be outperformed by a 175 SMK, 178 LRBT, or even a good 155 bullet, is strictly based on its poor ballistic coefficient (0.218 G7 BC). Higher BC means better wind resistance and performance, regardless of bullet weight. As an example, the Berger 168 Hybrid has a very high BC for a 168 gr bullet and will significantly outperform many older bullet designs with weights in the 170s range.

As to the OP's use of 168 SMKs in F-TR, they will do just fine. Yes, you'll be giving up a little bit to bullets with higher BCs, but you'll also be giving up something to anyone running an F-TR gun with a 30" pipe on it, even if they're using 168 SMKs. A longer barrel means more velocity and improved wind resistance. However, none of that means the 168 SMKs won't work. If those are what you have, then by all means bring them to the game. The most important thing for you to do is show up and get started with whatever you have. Regardless of how you do, you should try to have fun, which is what will keep you coming back. Also, talk with as many of the shooters as you can and learn as much as you can. If you stay with it, you will figure out as you gain more experience what you'll need to do put yourself on a more even footing equipment-wise. Even if you had the latest greatest F-TR gun, uber high-end scope, and zippy fast high BC load, it is unlikely that you would be at the very top of the pile your first time out. But don't worry, improvement will come as you gain experience. So load up what ya got, show up at the match, shoot what ya brung, learn a little, and have some fun. You'll do fine. Let us know how things go. Best of luck.
 
Good advice. Shoot what you got to get in the game. You will learn something every match. Unless you are a seasoned shooter already, you aren't going to win a match right out of the gate. Learn stuff first.
 
Load what you have for 600 yards right now. By the time you use them up you'll have figured out something about the wind and how to reload and you can get something else in the next batch.

Don't get to wrapped up in the perfection of internet shooting. If you read too much you'll be convinced that you couldn't hit the target frame with less than a bullet that has been pointed, trimmed, weighed, and ogive sorted, and we haven't even started to talk about brass yet. (I've heard that there are people who weigh primers :rolleyes: )

Make bullets, go shoot, and learn
 
There are a fair number of good shooters who are interested in getting started in competitive shooting, as a way to have some fun and take their shooting to the next level. If you want to get better at something, you can reinvent the wheel or you can hang out with people who are already good at it. Go shoot the match!

It looks to me like you have what you need to get started. Take the rifle and the ammo that you have, along with a sunny attitude and willingness to learn, and go shoot a match. You need a good zero and some semblance of reliable ballistic data for your rifle and ammo (elevation required to get to the distance you intend to shoot). If you think you might need help getting on paper, ask for it right off. DO NOT be too embarrassed to say "I am a new shooter, I've never fired any rifle / this rifle and ammo this far, can someone please spot me?" Even experienced shooters sometimes show up with new combinations, new ammo, new rebarrel, new scopes just mounted, etc, and they have a good 100 yard zero and an estimate for elevation for 800 yards or whatever and they ask for a spotter. Many of us don't have a 600 yard range out back and will be shooting the new combination for the first time at a match. ASK.

If you don't know what to do or how the matches are run, ask the range officer / match director. If he / she can't help you right away they should find someone who can. People are always willing to help out. If you don't have an Empty Chamber Indicator (ECI) either get one or call ahead and see if the range you're going to has one to sell you.

Take a hat. Consider taking a folding chair. Later in the season be sure to add insect repellent and sunscreen to your kit...

Note that there normally is no break for lunch, so take a cooler with drinks, sammich, snacks, etc. No eating on the line but you can munch in the pits and / or while scoring.

A well-run match has a rhythm / routine that experienced competitors are very familiar with. It might seem a bit hectic and unfamiliar at first but after awhile, if you pay attention, you will see you have plenty of time to do what you need to do.
 
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Not exactly sure why anyone would want to knowingly start off shooting with an easily fixable deficit, but I guess different strokes for different folks. Mind you, I am not talking about replacing an off the shelf $1,500 rifle with a $3,000 custom build, or replacing a $750 scope with a $2,000 scope, but I am talking about replacing a bullet that cost pennies with a better bullet that also costs pennies.

F-T/R is obviously far from being the gear/equipment race that F-Open is, however the shooters on the winners platform are not accomplishing their winning results by starting off with less than optimal gear/equipment. 155s have won a match, however the heavies above 180 are on the winners platform much more frequently.

In F-T/R, there is no question that shooting skill wins matches, however if you take 2 shooters with an equal skill set, the one with the better gear/equipment is obviously going to have the better chance of winning.

As someone who teaches and coaches new long range shooters, I am the first one to say that winning matches is not everything. Reality is, our local matches frequently have shooters from the various US / National Teams, so best of luck coming home with a win unless you can beat shooters who win and compete at an National or International level.

My advice, if you are new to long range competitive shooting:
- When the match is over, ask yourself what you learned? If the answer is nothing, then no matter what your score, you lost. If you learn anything new at a match, you won regardless of your score.
- Compete against yourself, because it is the only true way to evaluate your performance. If your scores continue to improve, you are winning. If your scores don't improve, then ask for some outside help to get you headed in the right direction.
- You have to be a true critic of your skill set, don't let the focus shift from your skills to a gear/equipment race. If you shoot long enough and well enough, you can reach a point where your gear is the limiting factor, however most people want to quickly focus on gear when they should be focused on skill.
- Based on what your budget will allow, start with the best possible gear/equipment that you can afford. Avoid the rush to run out and purchase things, if you do so without proper research and evaluation, you will find yourself quickly disappointed and having to replace it.

Back to the OP and original issues:
- It appears that your bank account is determining your gear at this point, which is reality for most shooters. As such, where can you make a change, that will cost you the least and produce the best results? Answer - your ammo.
- BC is the key when it comes to bullets for long range target shooting. A 168 SMK is at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to BC, and there are many other bullet options in the 175-185 range that will have a much higher BC. Reality in terms of G7 BCs:
168 Sierra MK = .218
175 Sierra MK = .243
178 Horn HPBT = .257
185 Berg HYB = .291
At closer ranges the BC differences will be less evident, but at the longer ranges, you will quickly appreciate the difference between a BC in the low .200s versus the high .200s.
- You can shoot your 168s, but you will have spent all of that time and effort trying to do your best with that bullet, to only have to start that process all over again when the 168s are gone and you move onto another bullet.

If the 168s are all that you can put together at this point, then by all means go out and shoot them. However, IMHO you have other options that you can look at which will ultimately pay off much better in the long run. Welcome and best of luck either way.
 
Wow what a great wealth of advice and knowledge!
At this point it looks like the store where the 168 SMK's were purchased is willing to exchange them for 175 SMK's.
Also I have to agree that until my skills are to the point that my equipment becomes the factor that limits my progress. I will be better served to use what I have (equipment wise) until that point and concentrate mostly on obtaining those skills.
The purpose of my OP was to get a feel if what I have in equipment would be up to the task of getting me started on a good learning curve. And from what I am seeing it seems that for the most part my equipment will be up to the initial intended task.
Thanks for the great advise.
 
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LRShooter101, gave some very good information and advice in the post above, and if the vendor will exchange the bullets then you are even better off.

Now the OP was regarding shooting 300/600 yards. If you're shooting that range, and you already had the 168s I'd say shoot them vs going out and spending another couple of hundred on bullets to start out.
 
+1 here. If you can exchange the 168s for a better BC bullet, now is absolutely the best time to do it...BEFORE going through the process of load development. My though after reading your original post was simply based on availability and not losing the $175.00 or so you already have spent on the 168s. LRShooter101's post is very well written and thought-out. Following the advice it contains will only put you ahead in the game.

The only thing I would add regarding bullet selection when you exchange the 168s is to have some idea of your chamber specs. If your Savage 10FCP-K is not throated long enough for something like a 185, you're better off sticking with a [shorter] high BC bullet that is better matched to your chamber. The SMK 175s are certainly better than the SMK 168s, and you will be much better off starting out with those. However, if the rifle isn't throated for a longer (heavier) high BC bullet, you might also think about Berger 175 Tactical OTMs or 168 Berger Hybrids if the store has them in stock. Both are relatively short compared to something like a 185, but have very good BCs. You can easily get an idea of how your chamber is throated before making the exchange.
 
Skydiver, shoot your 168's. They will be fine to 600 yds. You have a good setup for midrange. Go shoot and have fun. The very best bullet I have ever shot at midrange was a Lapua 185 Scenar. But it would not hold up at long range. But man, it would sure sizzle at 600. Your 168's are the same. They are a great midrange bullet.
 
Skydiver, shoot your 168's. They will be fine to 600 yds. You have a good setup for midrange. Go shoot and have fun. The very best bullet I have ever shot at midrange was a Lapua 185 Scenar. But it would not hold up at long range. But man, it would sure sizzle at 600. Your 168's are the same. They are a great midrange bullet.

Care to explain how a 185 Scenar "sizzles" at 600, but does not "hold up" at long range?

Sorry, but I am not understanding your comment?

Are you talking about stability issues in the transonic range?
 
LRShooter101, I really don't know why those bullets didn't shoot well at 1000, however they just didn't. I always assumed that it was because it was a tangent ogive bullet, and most LR shooters (no pun intended) use secant ogive bullets. In fact, I thought the Lapua 185 Scenar would be designed as a secant ogive like it's little brother, that is why I bought a whole bunch of them. Lucky for me they shot well in mid range so I could use them up.
 
LRShooter101, I really don't know why those bullets didn't shoot well at 1000, however they just didn't. I always assumed that it was because it was a tangent ogive bullet, and most LR shooters (no pun intended) use secant ogive bullets. In fact, I thought the Lapua 185 Scenar would be designed as a secant ogive like it's little brother, that is why I bought a whole bunch of them. Lucky for me they shot well in mid range so I could use them up.

Depending on the velocity that you were launching them, you could be seeing some transonic stability issues.

At any speed below 2,600 fps, they would be going transonic before they made it to the 1,000 yard line.

The judgement on Scenar transonic performance seems to still be out, some people are reporting issues, others are not?

I am sure someone like Bryan Litz could dig deeper into trying to calculate the stability and performance likelihood, but it is beyond my capability.

Per your results, I am sometimes just limited to what I see on paper!
 
I'm going to agree with everyone who has said, "Take what you have, and go shoot!" When you sign in, tell the match director that it's your first match. You'll get told something like, "That's Bob, over there. Follow him and do what he does."
I've never been to a match, any match, where fellow competitors would not take the time to help new shooters learn, and often you can get to try different equipment too.
Have fun!!


1911fan