State of the Industry

[lash]

I get to read threads on this subject at least once a year here. Today, while going through the responses and agreeing with many, I realized that we may be missing the forest for the trees. I see comparisons to other shooting sports, racing and others but we are missing the other obvious comparisons. Sports like golf, biathlon, Tour de France, and similar that are very long format and boring to watch the whole thing.

To my point:

• You film the popular competitors and or teams. Amateurs only if they’re known or peak interest in another way.
• You don’t make the program 6-8 hours long. You focus on key stages or competitors/teams that are neck and neck.
• Use multiple cameras and angles, including go pros or occasionally trigger cams, but make sure you’ve got capable production crews that quickly adapt from one angle or competitor or location to another.
• Don’t expect that people will want to see all competitors and all stages.

Further comparing to Golf:

• A golf tournament is five days long, but most people tune in on Sunday for the final stretch where they focus on the players that are on the top of the leaderboard and key holes (stages).
• Regular informed commentators that have knowledge and style.
• Quick replays of big shots or big misses.

In other words, it has to be a full production and garner interest without expecting the general audience to either know much about the sport or to have to spend a whole day watching everything.

The average racing fan sucks at driving, the average golfing fan sucks at golf. Same with all the sports. Shooting is no different.

All that matters is whether or not big money is interested in making it work or not. Because it will take big money to do it right.

 

[flogxal]

It can't be done correctly, because the actual audience, those interested already -- they are a tiny number. So if Big Bucks Billy (hypothetical person/entity) wants to "make a show of it" then it will be altered forever to make it cartoonish, silly, and irrelevant (to its original path) for "increased viewership" or the like.

If you ever have watched little niche sports seek and receive "popularity" and "greater income prospects" you will notice, the sport itself disappears and is replaced by entertainment. The former participants/athletes will say the changes make no sense to the athlete/participant, but they will have no say in the changes. They are treated like serfs to the Lord of the Manor.

 

[308pirate]

Sooo...what you are all saying is:

Naked ladies facilitating mag changes and making hit/no hit calls
Trannie freaks running around a live range during the match
Circus freaks lubing up cases

And grandmas driving Ferraris around the periphery

And explosions...

Oh and midgets and dwarfs need to be included in some way

With all that...you're saying there is a chance?

A very small chance

 

[308pirate]

It can't be done correctly, because the actual audience, those interested already -- they are a tiny number. So if Big Bucks Billy (hypothetical person/entity) wants to "make a show of it" then it will be altered forever to make it cartoonish, silly, and irrelevant (to its original path) for "increased viewership" or the like.

If you ever have watched little niche sports seek and receive "popularity" and "greater income prospects" you will notice, the sport itself disappears and is replaced by entertainment. The former participants/athletes will say the changes make no sense to the athlete/participant, but they will have no say in the changes. They are treated like serfs to the Lord of the Manor.

A poster in this thread described exactly that as what happened to the top tier autocross series in the US, and by increment to the more accessible racing classes.

 

[308pirate]

Sooo...what you are all saying is:

Naked ladies facilitating mag changes and making hit/no hit calls
Trannie freaks running around a live range during the match
Circus freaks lubing up cases

And grandmas driving Ferraris around the periphery

And explosions...

Oh and midgets and dwarfs need to be included in some way

With all that...you're saying there is a chance?

So this is an example of the most "athletic" and dynamic of the mainstream shooting sports. The guy in the video is an 11-time US national champion and three-time world champion both in Production division.

Tell me what his score was for every stage. Can you tell how he's doing against competitors? Dat soundtrack tho......


And that was the best in terms of action......it goes downhill all the way to this snoozefest

 

[lash]

Tell me what his score was for every stage. Can you tell how he's doing against competitors? Dat soundtrack tho......

What you are pointing out are exactly my points.

• Leaderboard pops up every so often between shooters.
• No commentary by a knowledgeable person
• No multi angle shots or impact shots

 

[hlee]

So this is an example of the most "athletic" and dynamic of the mainstream shooting sports. The guy in the video is an 11-time US national champion and three-time world champion both in Production division.

Tell me what his score was for every stage. Can you tell how he's doing against competitors? Dat soundtrack tho......


And that was the best in terms of action......it goes downhill all the way to this snoozefest

Prize table drama is where we draw in the eyeballs…

 

[308pirate]

What you are pointing out are exactly my points.

• Leaderboard pops up every so often between shooters.
• No commentary by a knowledgeable person
• No multi angle shots or impact shots

It takes $$$$$$ to do that for no ROI

 

[Stephen Bachiler]

Her is my idea:

Multi-disciplinary event. Each guy/gal has to shoot each event.

Golf has 18 holes with a player taking a shot somewhere on the course at all times...solid camera work and programming and slight tape delay allows the ability to not only have someone on camera at all times but also following the top scores as they shoot AND show great individual shots from players not generally doing well.

The EVENTS:

1. "The Ladder" - 300, 500, 800 & 1000 yard steel targets 5 shots at each (10 minute total allowable time) prone or bench
2. "F-Class" 600 & 1000 paper targets 10 shots each 10 minute time limit
3. "ELR - THE LONG BALL" - Bonus point round 1500 1MOA target (Tanerite) 5 shots
4. Benchrest - 100, 200 & 300 10 shots each 20 minute timelimit
5. Trap (can pick which line to shoot for extra points) 1 round total
6. 22 silhouette 1 round total.

 

[hlee]

4 belly/benchrest events and a round of trap? How are you going to keep the shooters awake long enough to shoot the 22?

 

[FieldGaugeFailure]

So this is an example of the most "athletic" and dynamic of the mainstream shooting sports. The guy in the video is an 11-time US national champion and three-time world champion both in Production division.

Tell me what his score was for every stage. Can you tell how he's doing against competitors? Dat soundtrack tho......

Better yet, can the average viewer even tell me what gun he's shooting? I could spot them the 9 letters of the manufacturer, and they would still say "never heard of it". Meanwhile, I'm sure there are thousands of PSA Dagger videos with 250k+ views in it. Normies want normie content.

 

[DFOOSKING]

Didn't they already televise Kot2M?

 

[Stephen Bachiler]

4 belly/benchrest events and a round of trap? How are you going to keep the shooters awake long enough to shoot the 22?

Visual stimulation of the half naked women involved in the endeavor and our major sponsor 5 hr energy and redbull

 

[doubloon]

I'm sure you will succeed where virtually everyone else has failed.

Just like Top Shot, I love that show.

Remember when that guy with the pistol shot that thing last year ... uh maybe the year before, nope, wait, last decade. I'm sure it will make a comeback next year.

With all that...you're saying there is a chance?

Top Shot didn't make it and pretty much the only thing missing from your list was naked ladies.

 

[308pirate]

This is the only shooting sport worth watching

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

This is the only shooting sport worth watching

That is some tough, tough shit. Think, go out and run two miles, stop and shoot iron sights off hand, head out and run another two miles, except if you miss any target you have to run an extra lap for every missed target of at least 200 yards, finishing that two miles, shoot iron sights, prone at a target of about I inch, again, miss a target, run an extra lap and so forth and then run two more miles to see if your time wins,. Cross Country skiing is as hard a sport to do for speed as any except possibly cycling time trialing (Iwhich takes a special idiot to like, and guess what, your's truly is that idiot., I loves the pain cave)

Point, when I can find an Biathlon event that is televised, I do tune in. Those boys and girls can shoot!

 

[308pirate]

That is some tough, tough shit. Think, go out and run two miles, stop and shoot iron sights off hand, head out and run another two miles, except if you miss any target you have to run an extra lap for every missed target of at least 200 yards, finishing that two miles, shoot iron sights, prone at a target of about I inch, again, miss a target, run an extra lap and so forth and then run two more miles to see if your time wins,. Cross Country skiing is as hard a sport to do for speed as any except possibly cycling time trialing (Iwhich takes a special idiot to like, and guess what, your's truly is that idiot., I loves the pain cave)

Point, when I can find an Biathlon event that is televised, I do tune in. Those boys and girls can shoot!

I'm only there for the ass

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I'm only there for the ass

When you’ve been to the pain cave, you’ll understand.

Kind a like setting up and running a match in 100 degree heat, with 70%+ humidity and being short handed. So, yes it relates to this thread. Match directors charge a bunch, because it can be darned hard and in some cases, even dangerous work. (Heat stroke)

As far as tv and spectator coverage, Those Northern Europeans eat this stuff with a spoon. Stands always crowded, no matter how far below zero it is, and television coverage is everywhere. Don’t know what the athletes get as far as income, but it can’t be sponsorship form the builder(s) of the rifles. They all shoot Anschutz.

And these spectators know their shit. They cheer every successful shot, It looks like fun to me, but then, I’ve probably been to the pain cave a few times too often (so says my doctor who says at 75 its time for me to quit) And I so wanted to be the 100 year old 5 and 10K World Time Trial record holder. .

Now there is a lesson to be learned from this. Rather than have groups of shooters, all standing around watching that one person shoot at a target(s) 400 to 1200 yards away…Have each shooter, shoot for score on the stage, and then he/she immediately move to the next stage and shoot. Have score for shooter posted on a board. Takes some effort, but it’s doable. Use swinger type targets that require a reset for the last shot and be close enough for the spectators to see. And to really make it tough, don’t keep a time for each stage, keep a total time for the entire match, and have to move quickly from stage to stage. Have penalty seconds added for each miss, enough penalty seconds to make missing a serious loss of time.

It’ll be fun.

 

[SanPatHogger]

So this is an example of the most "athletic" and dynamic of the mainstream shooting sports. The guy in the video is an 11-time US national champion and three-time world champion both in Production division.

Tell me what his score was for every stage. Can you tell how he's doing against competitors? Dat soundtrack tho......


And that was the best in terms of action......it goes downhill all the way to this snoozefest

That slide rack at 3:45 is super impressive.
Probably one of he best in the world, and outside the pistol competition shooting world nobody knows his name.

 

[308pirate]

That slide rack at 3:45 is super impressive.

It's pretty standard as the fastest method.

Probably one of he best in the world, and outside the pistol competition shooting world nobody knows his name.

Lots of people in LE and top tier military units know him now, and pay him to train them.

 

[roostercogburn98]

It's pretty standard as the fastest method.



Lots of people in LE and top tier military units know him now, and pay him to train them.

Good recovery on the last mag change. He almost dropped it

 

[308pirate]

Good recovery on the last mag change. He almost dropped it

I literally caught it mid air and jammed it in.

That's why I carry more mags than what the stage round count says I need.

 

[roostercogburn98]

I literally caught it mid air and jammed it in.

That's why I carry more mags than what the stage round count says I need.

Didn’t realize that was you. Good save for sure, spatial awareness can make or break the day.

 

[308pirate]

Good save for sure, spatial awareness can make or break the day.

When you dry fire reloads enough you fumble quite a few doing speed mode. Not giving up in those fumbles in practice builds up the reflex to not give up in a match.

It's like training matters....who knew?

 

[roostercogburn98]

It's like training matters....who knew?

Stop it! Ain’t nobody got time for that

 

[flogxal]

It's pretty standard as the fastest method.



Lots of people in LE and top tier military units know him now, and pay him to train them.

I can't think of any top shooter/paid instructor who has spent more time on the minutiae of getting better and faster/more efficient. Maybe Seeklander.

On that filmed stage -- did you start head down because you started with a mag load? Do you always start head down?

 

[308pirate]

On that filmed stage -- did you start head down because you started with a mag load? Do you always start head down?

I do start with my eyes locked on the first magazine for unloaded starts.

I do that because I place my first magazine on a magnet for unloaded starts. But the magnet can let the mag slide around if the grab isnt perfect. So i look at the mag to prevent that fumble.

That allows me to reload from the same pouch I always use for my first reload rather that having to reload from the second one back.

 

[flogxal]

That was what I assumed, but didn't want to be an ass!

That step back over the shooting line barrier, looked like the reload upset your step-timing but you nailed it regardless. Very smooth.

 

[flogxal]

Cross Country skiing is as hard a sport to do for speed as any except possibly cycling time trialing (Iwhich takes a special idiot to like, and guess what, your's truly is that idiot., I loves the pain cave)

Point, when I can find an Biathlon event that is televised, I do tune in. Those boys and girls can shoot!

I've done a little bicycle racing in XC and road. You pain cave lovers are another species. HR redline most are seeing double/triple, and you love it. How does someone transition to shooting with a high HR, and settle down for a precision shot?

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I've done a little bicycle racing in XC and road. You pain cave lovers are another species. HR redline most are seeing double/triple, and you love it. How does someone transition to shooting with a high HR, and settle down for a precision shot?

Well, the training including intervals, hill repeats extended time trial practices and long rides in the country which tends to leave a fellow with a really low BP and a very low resting heart rate. The secret is, that as soon as you back off the ride, the heart rate drops immediately. My Aerobic Threshold was 143-150. This is the level I rode 10K TT’s at Or at least tried, I always jacked it up when the finish line approached, not wanting to leave anything. As soon as I eased off on the peddling and sat up, my heart rate went from say 155 - 160 to double digits in less than a minute. It’s the joy of being in excellent physical condition. (Do keep in mind, my age was in the high 60’s and low 70’s. 75 now and the last race was when I just turned 74, in very late 2022. So, my heart rate was above the normal expected for my age. Highest I ever recorded was 169)

Now the funny part and this is the very first time I have ever publicly admitted it. When I was shooting handgun silhouettes 24 Years ago up to and including the years I first started riding, I was on a beta blocker for BP. The WADA bans beta blockers for shooting sports, When I was shooting I was not aware i was taking a banned drug. It lowers the heart rate. Now, I am not a big fan of beta blockers. I see them as fairly dangerous for anyone excepting dedicated “waiting to die” couch potatoes. I started trying to race and had trouble getting my heart rate anywhere near where it was supposed to be. I begged my med pro to change the meds and he refused. Said they were good for me. Finally I changed doctors and he changed the bp meds. The other fellow could have killed me.

So, I have in the best of times the VO2 max of an asthsmatic caterpillar and the Hemoticrit level of almost an anemic girl. I asked my current doctor if he wouldn’t mind slipping me a few does of EPO jokingly of course (Four year suspension for using it) However I though about taking some low dose iron pills, which are legal. Never did though.

So, I’m gonna get my Time Trial bike going and see how my shoulder tolerates me being in the aero bars and since my knees seem to be kind ok with cycling, get to doing some intervals and maybe give it another try. I loves to go fast.

 

[Mr.BR]

That is some tough, tough shit. Think, go out and run two miles, stop and shoot iron sights off hand, head out and run another two miles, except if you miss any target you have to run an extra lap for every missed target of at least 200 yards, finishing that two miles, shoot iron sights, prone at a target of about I inch, again, miss a target, run an extra lap and so forth and then run two more miles to see if your time wins,. Cross Country skiing is as hard a sport to do for speed as any except possibly cycling time trialing (Iwhich takes a special idiot to like, and guess what, your's truly is that idiot., I loves the pain cave)

Point, when I can find an Biathlon event that is televised, I do tune in. Those boys and girls can shoot!

In Europe Biathlon is actually the most popular winter sport , extremely mainstream ,

By leaps and bounds the most televised with large audiences

 

[308pirate]

In Europe Biathlon is actually the most popular winter sport , extremely mainstream ,

By leaps and bounds the most televised with large audiences

That sport has huge assets

 

[flogxal]

Well, the training including intervals, hill repeats extended time trial practices and long rides in the country which tends to leave a fellow with a really low BP and a very low resting heart rate. The secret is, that as soon as you back off the ride, the heart rate drops immediately. My Aerobic Threshold was 143-150. This is the level I rode 10K TT’s at Or at least tried, I always jacked it up when the finish line approached, not wanting to leave anything. As soon as I eased off on the peddling and sat up, my heart rate went from say 155 - 160 to double digits in less than a minute. It’s the joy of being in excellent physical condition. (Do keep in mind, my age was in the high 60’s and low 70’s. 75 now and the last race was when I just turned 74, in very late 2022. So, my heart rate was above the normal expected for my age. Highest I ever recorded was 169)

Now the funny part and this is the very first time I have ever publicly admitted it. When I was shooting handgun silhouettes 24 Years ago up to and including the years I first started riding, I was on a beta blocker for BP. The WADA bans beta blockers for shooting sports, When I was shooting I was not aware i was taking a banned drug. It lowers the heart rate. Now, I am not a big fan of beta blockers. I see them as fairly dangerous for anyone excepting dedicated “waiting to die” couch potatoes. I started trying to race and had trouble getting my heart rate anywhere near where it was supposed to be. I begged my med pro to change the meds and he refused. Said they were good for me. Finally I changed doctors and he changed the bp meds. The other fellow could have killed me.

So, I have in the best of times the VO2 max of an asthsmatic caterpillar and the Hemoticrit level of almost an anemic girl. I asked my current doctor if he wouldn’t mind slipping me a few does of EPO jokingly of course (Four year suspension for using it) However I though about taking some low dose iron pills, which are legal. Never did though.

So, I’m gonna get my Time Trial bike going and see how my shoulder tolerates me being in the aero bars and since my knees seem to be kind ok with cycling, get to doing some intervals and maybe give it another try. I loves to go fast.

You must have both a very efficient heart, relative to about 99.5% of others, and a very high volume of blood in your system. I recall similar things being said about Miguel Indurain.

I get your point about sitting up and feeling the workload increase. I didn't experience much of that when I lived on the E Coast but after moving west and riding into strong headwinds, I got the picture. One of my early routes had me facing a headwind on some of my rides, for the return leg. Out and back loop. First time the headwind was there, I rode out thinking "man my legs are strong today". Then hit the turnaround, and found the reason my legs felt strong earlier. I was being pushed by a wind that wasn't huge, but enough to boost me. On the ride home I couldn't sit up for the reason you said, it was like hitting a wall, or releasing a drag chute behind me.

Cycling and nordic ski disciplines are where the true top 0.01% of cardiovascular efficiency folks dwell, genetics gifts wise, if you ask me. I've seen people on a bicycle who you wouldn't think an endurance athlete, morphology etc wise, but they can locomotive at big watts like nobody's business. Jan Ullrich was a very well trained version of that.

 

[kthomas]

PRS is boring as fuck for a spectator sport.

I really don't think you can change that to any meaningful degree.

Very few people shoot it, and even less will watch it. There are more competitive Dungeons and Dragons players than PRS shooters - by a decent margin.

PRS/NRL/etc are a neat little hobby, but IMO that's all it's going to be. I don't think there will ever be broader appeal, unless something dramatically changes.