Rifle Scopes Steiner Military 5-25x56, Premier Heritage 5-25x56 and S&B 5-25x56 PMII

[Vihtavuori]

Hey guys,

first post here, but I hope you will apologize if I cut down the introduction to a minimum as there really isn't much to say about me I'm 27, from Austria/Europe and seeking to consult your guys' expertise on some rifle scopes.

The above mentioned scopes are up for consideration and I have searched my a** off for reviews (and even found a few). most of them say: the PR and the S&B are about at eye level with the steiner a little bit behind. However there is also some that say they are all about the same quality... Almost all of them however mention that the steiner might be more value since it is much cheaper then the other 2.

Now I cant realy understand that because prices seem to be different here in Austria. I will get the PR for around 2.900, the Steiner for about 2450 and the S&B for about 2500 (all euros).

What would you guys suggest? S&B = no brainer? I wish I had the chance to look at them personally but there is no dealer for any of those within a 600km so I have to order online.

Oh, and has anyone given them a rough time yet because I am likely going to treat i hem like my wife... which means I am probably going to bang them regularly

Rifle is a Savage 110 FCP HS Precision in .338 Lapua Magnum.

Thanks in advance!

Sg
Alex

PS: Sorry if there's already been a post like this i couldn't find it using the search function.

 

[hk dave]

Never looked through the Steiner, although i'm seriously contemplating picking one up.

Between the S&B and Premier, I felt the Premier had the better image, I prefer the reticle, an the turrets are just a tad better than the S&B.

But that's just me.

 

[strike33]

I like the MSR reticle. I would take the Steiner over the S&B as the consensus believes that the quality has been slipping. However, with the pricing the way it is for you the cheaper price point of the Steiner is moot here.
It's never an easy decision

 

[Kiba]

Being you're in Austria I'm surprised you don't have the Kahles 624i on your list.

I've yet to use a Steiner so I can't offer a comparison but I own an S&B 5-25 and have used a Premier 5-25... my preference is the S&B even though they've been having problems as of late (the MTC LT turrets seem to be mentioned frequently as a source of problems...) While both are excellent I preferred the DT turrets, glass, and H2CMR reticle of the S&B over the Gen II XR Premier that a friend has.

 

[Flyingbullseye]

Everyone's eyes will be different. I own a steiner and a friend is a schmidt guy. Can't tell any difference between the two glass wise, read other posts/reviews and some say the Schmidt is better others say Steiner and both are so close to each other its splitting hairs. Cost wise here in the US I can't think of any reason other than just wanting the name, to purchase a Schmidt over a Steiner. Ditto what Kiba posted about Kahles.

 

[sinister]

Scopes have slightly different retail cost here in the USA due to import taxes and tariffs. A Premier direct from Optronika in Germany would be an excellent value.

The Schmidt-Bender is the current standard to measure from as far as worldwide military use. They are having problems maintaining their professional engineering staff, and meeting market demand.

The Premier was designed and built by the engineers who built the Schmidt-Bender PM II, then left for Optronika. For all intents and purposes some specialists call it a "Police Marksman III." I have heard reports of older Premiers having extreme cold weather problems with the internals not moving due to the cold. The US Marine Corps uses their 3-15X scope.

The Steiner has the advantage of the licensed MSR reticle. The glass quality may not be as good but the telescope has some nice features and appears to be a good value.

 

[CSTactical]

Both scopes are made very well. I prefer Premier myself but whatever one you get you will love.



Mike @ CST

 

[Quickdraw40]

Scopes have slightly different retail cost here in the USA due to import taxes and tariffs. A Premier direct from Optronika in Germany would be an excellent value.

The Schmidt-Bender is the current standard to measure from as far as worldwide military use. They are having problems maintaining their professional engineering staff, and meeting market demand.

The Premier was designed and built by the engineers who built the Schmidt-Bender PM II, then left for Optronika. For all intents and purposes some specialists call it a "Police Marksman III." I have heard reports of older Premiers having extreme cold weather problems with the internals not moving due to the cold. The US Marine Corps uses their 3-15X scope.

The Steiner has the advantage of the licensed MSR reticle. The glass quality may not be as good but the telescope has some nice features and appears to be a good value.

Steiner glass is just as good.

 

[jbell]

My vote gors for the Bender... I would put the Kahles in second.

 

[avidflyer]

Ive had them all, and go back to the SB everytime....I dont know what it is about it, but it just works...great glass nice clicks easy to focus....etc...I'm looking for new glass for my 300 win mag and it WONT be a SB...Just getting to damn pricey....Two of my Premiers have came from Mike at CS....I just think the scope market is getting out of line in a bad economy....May go back to a Razor

 

[PatrickChewing]

I have a Premier 5-25 and a Steiner 5-25. I have not had a chance to put the Steiner through it's paces but I like it so far. I absolutely love my Premier and I have become very fond of the Gen2XR. Any of the scopes mentioned so far will serve you very well. Good luck and keep us updated.

 

[turbo54]

Has anyone with the Steiner noticed that black ink on white paper targets appear purple?

 

[ronas]

I have a Premier 5-25 and a Steiner 5-25. I have not had a chance to put the Steiner through it's paces but I like it so far. I absolutely love my Premier and I have become very fond of the Gen2XR. Any of the scopes mentioned so far will serve you very well. Good luck and keep us updated.

I have two 5-25x56 Premiers with Gen2 XR. I echo you opinion on Premier.

I do need another 5-25x56 and would be most interested in you opinion on Steiner overall. Particularly, the crispness with which the turrets turn, smooth but firm turning parellax, easy to get behind eyebox, glass as it relates to color, and crispness and clarity of image, and subtensions on reticle crosshairs comparied to preimer

 

[Abq-Defense]

Scopes have slightly different retail cost here in the USA due to import taxes and tariffs. A Premier direct from Optronika in Germany would be an excellent value.

The Schmidt-Bender is the current standard to measure from as far as worldwide military use. They are having problems maintaining their professional engineering staff, and meeting market demand.

The Premier was designed and built by the engineers who built the Schmidt-Bender PM II, then left for Optronika. For all intents and purposes some specialists call it a "Police Marksman III." I have heard reports of older Premiers having extreme cold weather problems with the internals not moving due to the cold. The US Marine Corps uses their 3-15X scope.

The Steiner has the advantage of the licensed MSR reticle. The glass quality may not be as good but the telescope has some nice features and appears to be a good value.

As Sinister mentioned, the Premier scopes may be a good option for the OP since he lives in Europe. The 5-25x56 scope is very good in many respects.

In the US, they are imported by ATI. In my experience, ATI is unresponsive. If you call during business hours someone may or may not answer the phone. If you leave a message, you wont get a call back. IF you go to the website and send an email to them, they won't reply. In the odd event you do get to talk with someone, they seem to have a basic sales knowledge of the product, but I think they have only read the sales literature. A few times they said they would research things and get back to me. They never did.

The 2nd level support guy is very good, but ATI won't put you in touch with him readily. If I were to by a Premier scope again, I would only do it if I could find a dealer (such as CS Tactical) that knows the Premiers VERY well, and buy if they would be willing to support it. Don't rely on the US importer for help. I'm not sure why ATI imports the Premiers, as it seems they have no interest in it.

 

[ElectricFuneral]

Why don't you include the Kahles since you live in Austria? In Europe it is the best value for the money by far.

 

[Vihtavuori]

Wow, thanks for all the great feedback!

I had the Kahles in mind at the beginning but i decided to rule it out completely because it is Swarovski, and I had a shitload of bad experience with Swarovski back in the days when I served in military and we did some testing for the swarovski prototypes. They fell apart on the 50s one after another.

Thanks to you guys I did some research on the 624i and people seem to have a lot of good stuff to tell about it. Might be worth a close look - however it seems as if it is extremely hard to get around here in central europe... only found 1 shop in germany where they offer it for 2500 but it says "on backorder". I'll take a look around the local shops maybe they have it (one would think that being an austrian glass there would be a lot of shops offering it - but I tell you guys, this country sucks if you are into shooting ). Would be great though to support an austrian company...

anyway thank you very much for assuring me that i won't make a big mistake going with either of those!

 

[turbo54]

[MENTION=61633]Abq-Defense[/MENTION]

Bummer you had a bad experience with ATI.

I had the exact opposite experience with them. My Premier had a tracking issue. I emailed Paul and got a prompt reponse to contact the guy (name escapes me) at ATI. I called him and had him on the phone in less than a minute. I briefly explained the issue, he asked for my email address, and before I was off the phone, had received the "form" to fill out, so that I could send my scope in for service. I sent the scope in, and received it back within 10 business days.

The experience was smooth and quick. Zero complaint.

 

[hk dave]

As Sinister mentioned, the Premier scopes may be a good option for the OP since he lives in Europe. The 5-25x56 scope is very good in many respects.

In the US, they are imported by ATI. In my experience, ATI is unresponsive. If you call during business hours someone may or may not answer the phone. If you leave a message, you wont get a call back. IF you go to the website and send an email to them, they won't reply. In the odd event you do get to talk with someone, they seem to have a basic sales knowledge of the product, but I think they have only read the sales literature. A few times they said they would research things and get back to me. They never did.

The 2nd level support guy is very good, but ATI won't put you in touch with him readily. If I were to by a Premier scope again, I would only do it if I could find a dealer (such as CS Tactical) that knows the Premiers VERY well, and buy if they would be willing to support it. Don't rely on the US importer for help. I'm not sure why ATI imports the Premiers, as it seems they have no interest in it.

Just contact Paul Lange on this forum, he's extremely quick to respond and very helpful. Hes the Premier tech support and warranty guy.

 

[Abq-Defense]

Just contact Paul Lange on this forum, he's extremely quick to respond and very helpful. Hes the Premier tech support and warranty guy.

Yes, Paul is the 2nd level support person I was referring to. He is very helpful with the technical items. I didn't know Paul frequented the forum. That is good for Premier customers to know.

RANT ON: If you call ATI, they don't hook you up with Paul. They take your question, then say they will get back to you, then never do. If you look at their website, Paul or technical support is not mentioned. From what I gather, he doesn't work with ATI at their facility. If you email ATI, you don't get a response. If I pay $3500 for a scope, I don't expect to have to place several calls, emails, and some forum posts to finally get a hold of someone that will help. ATI's support of Premier scopes, in my experience has been for shit. RANT OFF:

Again, Paul has been terrific and very responsive. I separated ATI and Paul in my comments because they do seem to be separate. If ATI does refer you to Paul, there is a separate email and phone number. For people here on SH, HK_Dave's reply will save you the hassle of going through ATI.

 

[paulyosh]

[MENTION=61633]Abq-Defense[/MENTION]

Bummer you had a bad experience with ATI.

I had the exact opposite experience with them. My Premier had a tracking issue. I emailed Paul and got a prompt reponse to contact the guy (name escapes me) at ATI. I called him and had him on the phone in less than a minute. I briefly explained the issue, he asked for my email address, and before I was off the phone, had received the "form" to fill out, so that I could send my scope in for service. I sent the scope in, and received it back within 10 business days.

The experience was smooth and quick. Zero complaint.

This was my experience also. I had dealt with Paul before, so emailed him directly. He pointed me to ATI, who generated an RMA very quickly, and I sent the scope in. Should be back on its way to me already...very happy with the service.

 

[XL Mammal]

Yes, Paul is the 2nd level support person I was referring to. He is very helpful with the technical items. I didn't know Paul frequented the forum. That is good for Premier customers to know.

RANT ON: If you call ATI, they don't hook you up with Paul. They take your question, then say they will get back to you, then never do. If you look at their website, Paul or technical support is not mentioned. From what I gather, he doesn't work with ATI at their facility. If you email ATI, you don't get a response. If I pay $3500 for a scope, I don't expect to have to place several calls, emails, and some forum posts to finally get a hold of someone that will help. ATI's support of Premier scopes, in my experience has been for shit. RANT OFF:

Again, Paul has been terrific and very responsive. I separated ATI and Paul in my comments because they do seem to be separate. If ATI does refer you to Paul, there is a separate email and phone number. For people here on SH, HK_Dave's reply will save you the hassle of going through ATI.

I called ATI yesterday. The rep didn't know the answer to my question, but he took down my cell number and I got a call from Paul within the hour. Very good service in my experience.

 

[Jedi]

As i want the MSR reticle
Kahles 6-24i
Steiner 5-25

either should work but my preference would be Kahles, not that i would bitch running a Steiner

 

[Vihtavuori]

I've been doing some research now and it seems like there is no way to get the kahles with MSR or Mil6 reticle around here only the Mil3 and Mil4 (which I am not really keen on). Sometimes I wonder if people really want to sell their stuff around here in Europe, or if the just want to shy away every potential customer

 

[pmclaine]

I've been doing some research now and it seems like there is no way to get the kahles with MSR or Mil6 reticle around here only the Mil3 and Mil4 (which I am not really keen on). Sometimes I wonder if people really want to sell their stuff around here in Europe, or if the just want to shy away every potential customer

I wish people around here could understand what you are observing.

Socialism leads to a market that tells the consumer what they want.

Capitalism reacts to and provides what the market wants.

The big push in this country is toward Socialism. I'm not crapping on Europa, I respect its history and realize where my roots are but at 45 my past makes me really resistant to having suppliers tell me what I will buy.

As an American Ive come to expect that if I want a pink dura coat CounterSniper dual reticle daylight red dot anti aircraft scope someone will provide it for some amount of money. This is how it should be.

PS - SuB is licensed for MSR can they help you?

I was going to go MSR but went with H2CMR. I dont regret it at all. It has .1 mil marks if you need them, is cleaner (to me) and as a newb was easy to understand. The open mil dots are easy to pick up at lower mag for me.

 

[JC Steel]

Only have experience with Premier and Schmidtty. IMHO, the premier is a step up. Better turrets and feel, more positive clicks, quick re-zero if needed, and I am loving the Gen2XR. Although the MSR is pretty awesome too!

Glass looks the same with my eyes. The premier has a better low mag field of view if needed.

 

[Abq-Defense]

I called ATI yesterday. The rep didn't know the answer to my question, but he took down my cell number and I got a call from Paul within the hour. Very good service in my experience.

I had sent Paul an email telling him about the lack of response from ATI. Maybe he called ATI and suggested they make some adjustments. I hope more people get more responses from ATI like you did. Customer Service isn't optional for scopes in this prices range.

To the OP, the scopes you are looking at are all terrific and have great quality glass. I suggest you look at the specific turrets, reticles, and other useability features to narrow your choices.

 

[Plange]

I had sent Paul an email telling him about the lack of response from ATI. Maybe he called ATI and suggested they make some adjustments. I hope more people get more responses from ATI like you did. Customer Service isn't optional for scopes in this prices range.

To the OP, the scopes you are looking at are all terrific and have great quality glass. I suggest you look at the specific turrets, reticles, and other useability features to narrow your choices.

I have talked with ATI and we both are working together to correct the issue you had about not getting a return call. Again I apologize.
Thanks,
Paul