Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

[match308]

I've done the mods I found on the web, but my new Powder dispenser on my 650 sucks. W/ N133 it throws a deviation of up to .7 Gr. What should I do?

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

I have not found any powder cutter style that works no matter what mod you use. The only option is a dipper and trickle up or a chargemaster style powder throw. Saw a WICKED powder thrower on here somewhere that even has a light behind it that is inside what looks like a lexan box or something that works better than anything I have ever seen but IIRC it is BIG BUCKS$$$$$

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Match308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've done the mods I found on the web, but my new Powder dispenser on my 650 sucks. W/ N133 it throws a deviation of up to .7 Gr. What should I do? </div></div>

How much do you think .7 grains, +/- really makes out to say 500 yards?

Not much.

Get a ChrageMaster 1500 if you want to be at +/- .1 grains.

You won't notice +/- .7 grains unless you're shooting at 1k, if that and then, there will probably be other factors that matter more.

It's a volumetric measure, so get some rest and kiss your wife and hug your dog.

Chris

 

[match308]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

Enough difference to keep you out of the top placement in a 600 yd F-Class match. I have the RCBS Chargemaster, but I would like to load match grade progressively. Guess its going to take more research to figure this one out. I could go to a granular powder, but I have 16 pounds of N133 and I love this powder for my Grendel.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisGarrett</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Match308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've done the mods I found on the web, but my new Powder dispenser on my 650 sucks. W/ N133 it throws a deviation of up to .7 Gr. What should I do? </div></div>

How much do you think .7 grains, +/- really makes out to say 500 yards?

Not much.

Get a ChrageMaster 1500 if you want to be at +/- .1 grains.

You won't notice +/- .7 grains unless you're shooting at 1k, if that and then, there will probably be other factors that matter more.

It's a volumetric measure, so get some rest and kiss your wife and hug your dog.

Chris </div></div>

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

this does not take research you just need to buy a chargemaster or its equivalent, or use a digital scale with a powder dipper and trickle up. No complex theory.

 

[dmg308]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

The way my Dillon worked for me is using the powder throw and seating dies only.I put a primed brass in the powder station and throw a charge thats set a few tenths light.Then I remove the case dump the powder on the scale and trickle it up to spec.I then place it in the seating position insert a bullet.Then I put another case in the powder position and pull.Not realy a full progressive thing but goes pretty well.You could also incorporate the priming process.
Now I've incorporated a Harrels thrower and its within .2 grs and I roll with it.

 

[1911fan]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

Mmmmkayy... This is not news. Most/all progressives don't like stick powder. Even my Harrell's isn't consistent with Varget. Switch to ball, or get a different measure and mount it on the Dillon. Raise the ram, cycle the dispenser, repeat. I forget who makes the adapter, but you can mount an RCBS measure on the Dillons. Don't know if there's one to mount the Harrell's though.
FWIW, my 'play' ammo is loaded on a Dillon 550 or 650. Match stuff gets weighed on the Chargemaster or thrown in the Harrell's if it's ball.

1911fan

 

[PKelley]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1911fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mmmmkayy... This is not news. Most/all progressives don't like stick powder. Even my Harrell's isn't consistent with Varget. Switch to ball, or get a different measure and mount it on the Dillon. Raise the ram, cycle the dispenser, repeat. I forget who makes the adapter, but you can mount an RCBS measure on the Dillons. Don't know if there's one to mount the Harrell's though.
FWIW, my 'play' ammo is loaded on a Dillon 550 or 650. Match stuff gets weighed on the Chargemaster or thrown in the Harrell's if it's ball.

1911fan </div></div>

I have used the Harrels with the Dillon threaded adapter on a 650 and 550. I just used some book binding tape around the base of the measure where it threads into the adapter. It works fine.

 

[Mag 300]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

I have tried all of the powder measures with stick or long grain, they dont work.
this goes for Harrels, dillons, accutek,rcbs,redding
I have been weighing each charge with an acculab VIC-123 to .1 gr and replaced the posder measures on both my dillon 550's with a FUNNEL
i drop the powder in at the top of the stroke after each is weighed

Save your time and frustration
You have to decide if your beleif is in mass or size of the charge or weight
Mine is weight??
Bill

 

[BillCominos]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

I've been using a Hornady PM w/the case activated drop with pretty good results on my Dillon 450's....ymmv...

 

[Queequeg]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

I see variation of +/- .2 grains in .223 and .308 a little more in 30-06, 8mm and .270, when using Varget, Rl15 or 4064. Never used the VV powders. Are the sticks significantly longer than my typical powders?

.7 grains is a very large swing that should be responsive to adjustment,i.e., powder bar/bushing polishing and ,possibly, static reduction/grounding.

 

[Mag 300]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

RL 15 and 22 are longer I beleive that the variation he is refering to is plus or minu .35 graing
i.e 70.35 to 69.65 gr

 

[Queequeg]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

I'm only on my first cup of Java. Missed the subtlety of the .7 grains. Took at as both ways rather than the total. Still .35 grains should still be tweakable to the .2 grain range that legend offers!

Perhaps a different powder bar?

 

[HiCapMag]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

I have read about the polishing of the powder measure but that has not worked for me...as apparently it has not worked for you.

I just load "semi-progressively" when making the good ammo -- take each case out after priming and dump in the powder from the Lyman electronic dohicky.

It slows youd down, but .7 grains off do matter.

Good luck

 

[Queequeg]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

I've grown accusttomed to polishing my gear: barrel throats, powder bushings, powder bars, knives; Ole woody when Mrs. qq puts me in the doghouse!

Ole woody doesn't need a mirror shine to signify completion though!

 

[Guest]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild Bill C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been using a Hornady PM w/the case activated drop with pretty good results on my Dillon 450's....ymmv... </div></div>

+1 here. The case actuated Hornady works perfectly on the dillon 650, and is CRAZY accurate, to a variance of .1 for me with stick (varget, 4895). This is how I load all my precision ammo, and out of a bone stock FN SPR it's a reliable 5 shots into .3" at 100Y.

I had the same problem with my dillon powder measure, and now it's sitting under the workbench never to be touched again. That thing SUCKS, but the rest of the press is superb.

Just a suggestion, but if you're going to use a progressive loader for a precision rig, look into the OCW process. That way you're shooting in the middle of the accuracy node, and slight variations in charge weight don't affect POI. Probably many threads here about it.

--Fargo007

 

[Falar]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

Just remove your powder dispenser and place an AT500 powder die with funnel in its place and dispense with your Chargemaster and hand dump. It's what I do for Varget.

 

[Doc Holiday13]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild Bill C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been using a Hornady PM w/the case activated drop with pretty good results on my Dillon 450's....ymmv... </div></div>

Yup the hornady has been pretty accurate for me so far. I haven't used a big stick powder in it yet so I can't speak for big stick. However i will say it throws flake very very accurately

 

[Mag 300]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

FALAR has the right Idea, the funnel is the right way to go
Bill

 

[Falar]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Stoffels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FALAR has the right Idea, the funnel is the right way to go
Bill </div></div>

You can still load pretty damn fast this way too. My chargemaster only takes about 11 seconds to dispense my .308 charges so including time to dump it you can see how over 100 rounds per hour is still possible. You won't get single digit SD with a stick powder and the Dillon dispenser.

 

[Downzero]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

I use a Lyman 1200 for my precision ammo. A progressive press is simply not for match ammo.

 

[Bronco]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

Guess I'd better quit loading my 1/2 moa match ammo on my 550, since it can't be done.
Couple things to check.
How sturdy is your loading bench? Vibration is not your friend.
How consistent is your stroke. (queequeg, leave it alone)
My brass is already sized so flows very smoothly through sizing die. I use a Dillon trimmer and sizing die, this gets a lot of the credit for consistency of powder throw.

I’ve had good success with the following:
N-133
N-135
RL-15
Benchmark
BL-C2
2520

Yes Varget is a bitch out of any powder measure.

 

[Mag 300]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

REALLY DISAGREE that the Dillon cannot load Match Ammo
read above here in this post
the first stage for the deprime and sizing and reprime is no issue
the second stage for the powder is the issue
I use a funnel and an Acculab vic 123 to weigh each charge to .1 gr
then dump it in when the press is at the top stroke
the third stage works great I am using redding comp dies and can set the oal to withing .001 for each load but you know that .
YES its slower but your a hell of lost faster than a single
I have 2 550's set up like this and have has great results the key for me is the Acculab scale and the funnel

for .45 pistol loads I just use the ball powder and the Dillon measure, the only differance is the I used FLITZ metal polish and polished all of the powder dispenser internals and the charge bar making it a mirror finish it helped the .4.0 loads for the .45 are all within .1 gr
Bill

 

[Bronco]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

the first stage for the deprime and sizing is no issue
the second stage for the powder is the issue

Bill, it is my contention that the first stage does affect the second. As stated vibration is not your friend, ie: pack factor. The difference in resistance between unsized cases adversely affects the powder drop.
There is always a significant drop difference (less powder dropped by as much as .5 grain) when no brass is being sized (empty first stage).
I'm dropping 44.2 gr. RL-15 for my 175 SMK loads. I pull 1 in 10 to check powder weight and they vary from 44.1 to 44.3 consistently, high percentage are 44.2.
I'm not out to change your mind, but a blanket statement that match ammo cannot be loaded on a 550 is not true in my case as well as many others I know.

 

[EddieNFL]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

Mine will throw N135 to +/- 0.1 grains. As I recall N133 granule size is about the same. I'll add a roger to Bronco's advice.

 

[Mag 300]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

Bronco
I have not run into this and being the same seemed to be the best for my reloading , I am basically using the first stage to deprime, size and reprime as expected.
for the second stage I have removed the powder measure opting for the funnel and weighting each charge.
to each his own though arcaic its working for me
Thanks for the advise it was just my opinion

I appreciate your view.
Semms to be that your are loading match ammo if your staying at .2 gr??
Am I wrong ??
Thanks

As always here to learn and try to help
Bill

 

[Bronco]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

I loaded for years on a single stage, pistol and rifle. When I started shooting 3 pistol matches a month the loading had to be speeded up. Then came the 3 gun bug, man that eats ammo.
I shoot mainly 40 S&W, .223, and .308.
.223 loads are 55 gr. hoser ammo, 69 SMK for 3 gun, 77 SMK. for DMR match and long range. Yes I love my Redding adjustable seating dies!
.308 loads are 155 SMK, my LR-308 loves these. 155 Lapua for bolt gun and 175 SMK for same in F-class and tac matches.

We agree on the outcome just have different method of getting there. Accurate consistent ammo is what we are both after!

 

[match308]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

Thanks guys. I dusted off the chargemaster and now I throw single charges and dump when ready. I guess I shouldve done my homework before getting the 650. And Dillon, (for the price they sell them for), should be ashamed that they don't have a better design that enables the use of extruded grain powders.

 

[Mag 300]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

Bronco,
I agree,
Thanks for the new info as you have me thinking about it .
I will be reloading tonight .
Good shooting
Bill

 

[madmax56]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

I have a 550 RL also and have the same problems. Is there a powder that burns as slowly as RL25 in ball? I'm also using AR2225, same question?

 

[Falar]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Match308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks guys. I dusted off the chargemaster and now I throw single charges and dump when ready. I guess I shouldve done my homework before getting the 650. And Dillon, (for the price they sell them for), should be ashamed that they don't have a better design that enables the use of extruded grain powders. </div></div>

I don't think it is a problem unique to Dillon. I've yet to hear of any progressive press powder dispensers that are accurate to within .1gr with Varget.

 

[dmg308]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Match308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks guys. I dusted off the chargemaster and now I throw single charges and dump when ready. I guess I shouldve done my homework before getting the 650. And Dillon, (for the price they sell them for), should be ashamed that they don't have a better design that enables the use of extruded grain powders. </div></div>

The shame should be on the buyer for not knowing what he is buying.Five minutes worth of searching will turn up all kinds of info and with few exception's no thrower is .1 gr accurate with stick powders.

 

[Falar]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dmg308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Match308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks guys. I dusted off the chargemaster and now I throw single charges and dump when ready. I guess I shouldve done my homework before getting the 650. And Dillon, (for the price they sell them for), should be ashamed that they don't have a better design that enables the use of extruded grain powders. </div></div>

The shame should be on the buyer for not knowing what he is buying.Five minutes worth of searching will turn up all kinds of info and with few exception's no thrower is .1 gr accurate with stick powders. </div></div>

You are 100% correct, if you google it or search these forums, ar15.com, brianenos.com, etc you sure get a lot of info on this. Most guys do the modifications listed on one of the forums about polishing a lot of the surfaces and claim they can get stick powders to within .3gr or less. This is good enough for the majority of handloaders, and exceeds the standards of much factory ammo. Even when I tried using mine and was only getting within .5gr or so my SDs were better than factory ammo. I initially bought my XL650 to duplicate military loads with 5.56 and 7.62 NATO. An XL650 is perfect for that, as ball powders are metered accurately in the Dillon measure and you can crank out ammo by the 1000s. When I first developed an interest in "precision" handloading I had to make a choice, use the Dillon in a different way than it is intended or get a single stage and all of the accesories needed for that. I think using the 650 with a funnel die and hand dumping charges is a great way to still make precision ammo, but make it faster than you could on a single stage. On a site like this one I can see where there won't be many loading ammo on a progressive since the goal here is extreme precision, but if you check the reloading section on a handgun or AR site most will be using a progressive since they need to make large quantities of ammo. It seems the general consensus though is progressive=quantity and single-stage=quality, though obviously that doesn't mean you can't make quality ammo on a progressive.

 

[match308]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

DMG- read my post again. I stated that I shouldve done more research. Thanks for your helpful post and restating what I already wrote. Be advised, as well, that I never expected .1 deviation.Thats your misquote. Your philasophical prose astounds me. I still believe that the industry should be able to find a way to put 43.3 grains in the f'ing case when I f'ing tell it to.BTW, the research I did manage to find the time for, concluded that many, through many part polishing and retrograding tricks, enabled their dispensers to drop stick powders consistently within .2 grains. That'd be good enough for me, but it does'nt look like its going to happen.

 

[Two Shoes]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

Match, if it is like most Dillons, and any others, try keeping the setting (powder level( in dispenser) as close to the same as possible).
You will see a lot of fluctuations, as the measure goes from full to half, etc.

Also, I would (since your dead set on not using the CM), make it a point to set it up to as close to your desired charge, and then dumping, and trickling to you exact weight desired, using a balance beam scale.

Using your current set up.....I would still OPT for the CM, as every Dillion PM, will CUT KERNELS,...............affect burn rates.

Going with loading blocks, and trickling to exact weight w/ CM, will be a far better way to fly.( INHO, and experience).

 

[dmg308]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

"And Dillon, (for the price they sell them for), should be ashamed that they don't have a better design that enables the use of extruded grain powders."

You throw out that Dillon should be ashamed right after admitting you did not do your home work. You took a little personal responsibility but then proceeded to blame Dillon.Did you happen to ask Dillon what to expect as far as extruded stick powder accuracy?By the way ever pull some Gold Medal Match .5-.7 gr deviation is pretty normal.
So Federal with their multi million dollar machines cant accomplish what you expect a sub 1k machine to do.I was not trying to bust your balls just suggest you not bust Dillons they are a very stand up company and did'nt deserve your coment.
Good luck with whatever works for you.

 

[match308]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

Thanks. True,I should'nt have just listed Dillon as the only manufacturer that didn't have a way to deliver stick in a more consistent manner. They're all guilty of this. I also know that Dillon is, in my opinion, the best for progressives. I should've stated that I would benefit by MORE homework, not any. I did'nt go into the 650 totally blind. Dillon has been helpfull to some degree as they advised me to use ball powder due to the limitations of their powder dipensing syatem. Again, the deviation expectation I had after doing my research before buying the press was +/- .3 grains and it won't do that. I stand firm on my statement of shame about the industry not having a way to make a progressive setup drop extruded powder between +/- .3 grains. They are not trying hard enough. I would still buy the 650 knowing its limitations as I wanted to get back into pistol and .223 plinker reloading. And shame on Federal to if .7 grains is their standard deviation. I hold all important products that I buy to a high standard. I buy once/cry once and I'm not a cheap-ass. I'm still pissed at GM for the brand new Z71 I bought when I ETSd that could'nt manage to get 10K out of it's tranny before loosing 3rd gear. I did'nt ask GM about that limitation either before I bought it. I'm angry at the whole US Auto industry for forcing me to drive a Honda pickup and the Acura my wife drives.
BTW the press with all the accessories was over 1K.
Rant over.
I appreciate the wish of good luck. I will just accept that the 650 is as good as it gets and use the chargemaster to feed the cases.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dmg308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"And Dillon, (for the price they sell them for), should be ashamed that they don't have a better design that enables the use of extruded grain powders."

You throw out that Dillon should be ashamed right after admitting you did not do your home work. You took a little personal responsibility but then proceeded to blame Dillon.Did you happen to ask Dillon what to expect as far as extruded stick powder accuracy?By the way ever pull some Gold Medal Match .5-.7 gr deviation is pretty normal.
So Federal with their multi million dollar machines cant accomplish what you expect a sub 1k machine to do.I was not trying to bust your balls just suggest you not bust Dillons they are a very stand up company and did'nt deserve your coment.
Good luck with whatever works for you.
</div></div>

 

[Mag 300]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

I agree its not just a Dillon issue , I am more than happy with it but the matcha mmo needs the funnel treatment
read below I agree 100%
You are 100% correct, if you google it or search these forums, ar15.com, brianenos.com, etc you sure get a lot of info on this. Most guys do the modifications listed on one of the forums about polishing a lot of the surfaces and claim they can get stick powders to within .3gr or less. This is good enough for the majority of handloaders, and exceeds the standards of much factory ammo. Even when I tried using mine and was only getting within .5gr or so my SDs were better than factory ammo. I initially bought my XL650 to duplicate military loads with 5.56 and 7.62 NATO. An XL650 is perfect for that, as ball powders are metered accurately in the Dillon measure and you can crank out ammo by the 1000s. When I first developed an interest in "precision" handloading I had to make a choice, use the Dillon in a different way than it is intended or get a single stage and all of the accesories needed for that. I think using the 650 with a funnel die and hand dumping charges is a great way to still make precision ammo, but make it faster than you could on a single stage. On a site like this one I can see where there won't be many loading ammo on a progressive since the goal here is extreme precision, but if you check the reloading section on a handgun or AR site most will be using a progressive since they need to make large quantities of ammo. It seems the general consensus though is progressive=quantity and single-stage=quality, though obviously that doesn't mean you can't make quality ammo on a progressive.

 

[Nocalphoenix]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

Or you could just buy some Ramshot tac and be done with it, runs within .1 on my dillon and Im considering trading 16lbs of Varget for more TAC.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

i guess i'll have to find the picture of the Prometheus gen 2....

 

[Accraholic]

Re: Stick powder + Dillon Powder dispenser = @#$%$#@$%

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Match308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And Dillon, (for the price they sell them for), should be ashamed </div></div>


That's funny right there. Dillion is the best company I've ever delt with. I would not be surprised if they offered you a full refund. I would be damn surprised if you accepted it.

YOU are talking about a volumetric devise not a scale..........hence the term powder thrower. There ar plenty of ways for the same volume of powder to have different weight.....poor operating technique is high on that list.