Advanced Marksmanship Stock fit + recoil mgmt and affect on accuracy

[Aquatic_Robotic]

I've been reading several some of the threads here about accuracy. I am a long time hunter and shooter with what I consider above average shooting skills, but I am sure below average for the group of shooters I am addressing here.

I am in the process of setting up my first true LR bolt gun and fired it for the first time earlier this week. I place two or three shots in one hole and then I get a shift in POI. I fire another string and the same things happens again. I will have three in one hole and two in another hole, but 1 1/2" high and 1/2" left etc.

The rifle scope was set up using existing bases and rings from another rifle. They do not fit the gun correctly and the correct rings are on order. I will not fire any more rounds until I get the proper height rings.

Also I have rarely fired a rifle with an adjustable stock and have never owned a rifle with an adjustable stock. My new LR 300 WM has a McMillan A-5 stock. It feels good, but much different than I am used to. I also am using a Harris bipod and although not new to bipod use, shooting from a bench on a short bipod is different.

My observations when firing the rifle.

1. proper alignment with the scope, because of scope mounted too high, was difficult

2. LOP on stock was too long and I did not have allen wrenchs for adjustment NOW IN MY RANGE BAG

3. felt recoil from seated position off bench was strong, but not unbearable.

4. after a few shots, I began to noticed the rifle would end up in a slightly different position on the bench in relationship to the target. In other words, recoil was pushing the gun out of alignment. Bipod was bouncing all over the place. I am used to shooting off sand bags.

5. 5 shot groups 1.25" - 1.5", but looked like two seperate 2 and 3 shots groups in one hole, if that makes sense

QUESTIONS??


1. Can some or all of these issues I have described account for the shifting POI??

2. How much does proper stock fit affect accuracy?

3. What can I do more consistently for recoil management when using a bipod off a bench in the seated position?

4. Any other advice is more than welcomed


Thanks

 

[lroseen]

Re: Stock fit + recoil mgmt and affect on accuracy

1. Improper or inadequate rings and base could account to changing POI however so could x,y and Z. In other words the problem could be an assortment of different forms of shooter error.

2. If the fundamentals are applied properly improper stock fit shouldn't matter however with a relatively new shooter it more than likely will. It takes a fair amount of understanding and experience to shoot a rifle well when it fits right let alone if it doesn't. It comes down to the fundamentals.

3. Load your bipod and use proper body alignment.

Check out how to load your bipod here: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1177781 look for a post by "shaggyback" he explains it fairly well and the next post has a link from lowlight to a video that he explains it also.

Next check out this link I explain how to do it from a bench or table style platform, well kinda I just give some form advice. http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...137#Post2428137

4. Find a experienced shooting partner or take a couple classes from somewhere, preferably the later. It will help more than anything else. You can learn more from an experienced shooter than you will on your own or by a computer.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Stock fit + recoil mgmt and affect on accuracy

First off, I recommend getting off the bench and onto the ground. Recoil management involves getting meat behind the rifle to properly absorb the recoil, and there's a reason you see lightweight rounds instead of magnums in BR competition. Also, what MN SS was talking about with proper body alignment involves getting proper natural point of aim. Get it and check it often. He also referenced proper loading of your bipod, so I won't go more into that.

You're shooting a 300WM. Do you have a muzzle brake? That's a whole lot of rifle, and without some type of mechanical recoil management you're likely to have your natural point of aim thrown off as you were experiencing already. The heavier felt recoil can also start to affect your trigger control and follow through, so that can also be a cause.

As for proper stock fit affecting accuracy, again we fall back to being capable of acquiring and maintaining natural point of aim. Too long LOP will cause you to not be able to control the rifle properly by forcing you to make compromises in your position. You should see the difference when you adjust it.

Finally, work on your position and trigger control through dry fire work. Then you can apply those skills onto the range by shooting the Practical Tactical Practice drills. It changes things up by getting you off of shooting standard groups, and also if you use it in the manner of coming off the rifle between each shot, you will see how well you're developing your NPA.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Stock fit + recoil mgmt and affect on accuracy

Either you make the rifle fit you, or you make yourself fit the rifle. The bottom-line is the relationship between you, the gun, and the ground must be consistent from shot to shot, as well as steady. There are three elements to this: bone/artificial support, muscular relaxation, and NPA. Do not overlook the element of muscular relaxation. When muscles are relaxed there's less movement. Also, recognize a consistent relationship between you, the gun, and ground is described by its 5 factors: stock-weld, butt-to-shoulder placement, grip, non-firing hand placement, and elbow placement. You want the position to be built, not only for NPA to honor the target/sight picture you're seeking, but to be mechanically perfect shot to shot to better maintain consistent control over the rifle.

 

[Aquatic_Robotic]

Re: Stock fit + recoil mgmt and affect on accuracy

I appreciate all the info and advice.

I do not have a brake on the 300 WM and would prefer not to place one one it. I do not like the report of the muzzle brakes. I own and fire a number of heavy recoiling rifles, but fire them in the offhand standing position. All of these guns have SVL recoil pads on them I find these pads reduce felt recoil by as much as 25-30%. Anyone here have a good reason why this recoil pad should not be used on my 300 WM?

Is the opinion here(SH) that a muzzle brake is a requirment for the 300 WM to achieve accuracy?

When the new Badger low rings get here, I will remount the scope and this should take care of that problem. Once I have a good scope mount, I should be able to adjust the stock for proper fit and resolve that issue.

I am not quite sure I know what "loading the bipod" does to improve accuracy? I will watch the suggested video and hopefully it will answer that question.

This form (style) of LR shooting is new to me and I am seeing very quickly that it involves some techniques that are new to me. I am excited about being able to consistently hit targets out to 1000 yds.

Thanks for your tips. I do have friend that has been firing LR for a number of years. He has been trying to get me interested, but I just now got the bug. I will lean on him for some instruction and help.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Jedi]

Re: Stock fit + recoil mgmt and affect on accuracy

Where u shooting @ bro ... location?
i,m in Round Rock n shoot @ BOTW
Wot is it your shooting that needs a 300WM?

A good 6/6.5 will kill anything in the lower 48
ballistically they will match 300WM with right bullets

Thats alot of gun, if your a new shooter, not ideal paltform to learn on ... you dont wanna develop a flinch

 

[TimK]

Re: Stock fit + recoil mgmt and affect on accuracy

I'm no expert, but here's my recent experience. It might be useful.

I've been shooting long range for just over a year. I compete every month, and in that year's time I saw my scores improve and then level off.

I just switched from an H-S precision stock to an AICS. The improvement in my scores was huge, like on the order of 25%. Two things are at work here, I think. One, the AICS is adjustable and I now know enough to be able to adjust it for what works for me. When I started I would have had no idea what to change or in which direction to change it.

The second thing was the trigger hand position. The AI (and the McMillan's I've been behind) give a trigger hand position that is much more conducive to a straight back pull. I still find I can screw up a shot with the AICS if I deliberately grip the stock wrong.

To sum, I think fit could easily be the cause of your problems. Knowing what little I know, I'd suggest some dryfire to find the position that yields no movement of the reticle when the trigger breaks.

 

[SavageStag]

Re: Stock fit + recoil mgmt and affect on accuracy

I would definitely sign up for the online training. Then you will know what all o these terms are and how to apply them. I went shootin with a fellow hide member today and thought I knew what I was doing. I was wrong! Try to connect with someone from here in your area.

 

[bigg_sexy1]

Re: Stock fit + recoil mgmt and affect on accuracy

Here is a great article on stock fit by one of the best in the business

http://defensiveedge.net/articles/Fitting%20the%20Long%20Range%20Rifle.pdf

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Stock fit + recoil mgmt and affect on accuracy

Bang-on.

If you have a bad cheek weld, you're only likely to shoot to the rifle's potential if some form of miracle occurs.

Add in some improperly compensated parallax, and things can only get worse.

My technique for taming bipod hop requires the addition of a slack sling attached to the stock at both ends. The non-trigger hand gets passed between the forend and sling and the arm is inserted so the elbow bears down on the sling, and the hand grips/helps adjust the rifle butt.

The sling is adjusted just right when the elbow is suspended just clear of the ground/bench, allowing the upper body's weight to counteract hop. Do it right and you can watch trace all the way into the target.

Greg

 

[Wanderlust]

Re: Stock fit + recoil mgmt and affect on accuracy

Greg,

Sounds quite interesting, do you have a picture of this in action?

 

[plh]

Re: Stock fit + recoil mgmt and affect on accuracy

Is it safe to say that the position of the adjustable riser will be different for bench vs. prone or should one be able to find a single position that provides correct cheek weld/eye position for both bench and prone?



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MN sharpshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
2. If the fundamentals are applied properly improper stock fit shouldn't matter however with a relatively new shooter it more than likely will. It takes a fair amount of understanding and experience to shoot a rifle well when it fits right let alone if it doesn't. It comes down to the fundamentals.

Next check out this link I explain how to do it from a bench or table style platform, well kinda I just give some form advice. http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...137#Post2428137
</div></div>

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: Stock fit + recoil mgmt and affect on accuracy


The following combination will relieve recoil, of course depending on the weight of the rig, and the hold (tight, white-knuckle tight, really tight, kinda tight, not tight flopping around loose...,) the shooter might use while firing the rifle. Use not some of these, but all of these on one gun for the full affect, obviously .

1) Brake that vents only up and maybe to either side too to some degree, but not more than 45 degrees. Or no brake at all.
2.) Lighter fill stock than sniper or magnum we've become used to in tactical circles. But if you're strong, buff or want a heavy rig that goes without saying.
3.) Run two, and even three (will come to 1.5lbs), if they will fit, mercury recoil reducers in the butt. But at least one. A model I checked on weighs 8 ounces, 9/16" diameter x 5" length by Graco retailing for $54.00.

Recoil reducers add weight. However, that is not the only reason they reduce recoil. However, because we are running heavy barrels and scopes the added weight should not cause an imbalance issue if you go with a lighter stock since the butt area contains weight you're probably coming close to merely replacing. If it does, put another, or one of the two, mercury reducer(s) in the forearm. Hog it out and bed it in. One in front. One in back.

How about this model: 20" barrel and/or Tubb contour.
Top brake to alleviate hop - like a Thompson sub - and more to the side-shooter-friendly.
Light fill stock, or not, if you want heavy.
Lighten up on the mounts; Aluminum, Titanium or Nightforce, for example, or not, again, if you want heavyyy.
Recoil reducers, fore/aft, depending on balance. Tape them on the gun to experiment on how it feels before a more permanent implant.

Incidentally, some of the squishy butt pads we're using are bouncy, disrupting our trace watch. Their utility might be questionable.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Stock fit + recoil mgmt and affect on accuracy

No pictures. I don't do pictures.

I suggest you simply try it as described. It feels a bit unortodox at first, but soon becomes more natural.

I've been posting this method here for years, and my description has been whittled down to barest bones, but it should be pretty clear.

I call it my method because it's what I use personally, but it's so basic and obvious I'm pretty certain I wasn't the first to try it. I understand it's actually taught somewhere in the military, so I'm guessing that's where it originated.

Greg

 

[rickp]

Re: Stock fit + recoil mgmt and affect on accuracy

I had the same problem you had with the 2 shots on top of each other and the third being off a bit. When I was at RO they pointed out what I was doing wrong with this issue. Between shots I was picking up my head off the stock. Believe it or not, even though one can't tell by just looking through the glass, this little bad habit will affect your point of impact.

As for the rest, others have said it well. You need to be setup and properly positioned behind the rifle to be able to achieve consistency. For that to happen the rifle needs to be setup right for YOU. Once your body/setup behind the rifle is consistent, then focus on the fundamentals.

R.

 

[bowhunter_0311]

Re: Stock fit + recoil mgmt and affect on accuracy

Is the opinion here(SH) that a muzzle brake is a requirment for the 300 WM to achieve accuracy?


quote]

It is not a requirement if you bolted that rifle to the table shot it with the break and without it there should be no change good or bad.
All that it is going to do is reduce the felt recoil, so that when you shoot you are not saying to yourself damn this sob is about to hurt. Then you flench.
It will help keep your mind off of recoil and on your fundamentals.

And save your shoulder from a beating on a long day of shooting...

here is a video with and without break
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMLMof4P8Hk

 

[Kanati]

Re: Stock fit + recoil mgmt and affect on accuracy

You mentioned that it's a new rifle. The POI shift may not be just because you are shooting from a bench, although that will affect your shot placement. The shift may be caused by a couple of other factors. One is the barrel may be in the process of being broken in, you will notice a POI shift once it has been broken in. Although, with what you said, it'll group 3 or so shots and then the shift will happen. If that happens time after time it may not be the barrel breaking in. The other is that you may have your rifle canted to the left, that would cause an impact high and to the left, especially at distance. To alleviate this, find a dealer online and buy a scope level that will mount to your scope, that should help you out.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Stock fit + recoil mgmt and affect on accuracy

The bullet ALWAYS goes in the direction the barrel is pointed. Hitting where aimed is about sight alignment and trigger control supported by a steady position, where the consistency of the shooter, gun, and ground relationship is paramount. I don't think most non-competitive shooters understand the importance of these concepts, perhaps, the concepts appear too simple to be important.

The bottom-line regarding rifle fit and recoil is that a shooter who can make himself fit what he's got will come to better understand the consistency of the position from shot to shot, since muscular relaxation is better assured. With shot to shot position consistency recoil will produce an angle and arc between the line of bore at rest and line of departure which is less divergent than when the position is not perfected. Of course, when the position is indeed perfected, angular error will be minimized and zero dispersion made possible.

Making the position consistent shot to shot to realize zero dispersion will require the shooter to commit to a practice schedule which develops motor memory. Since perfecting the position shot to shot cannot just be willed to happen, or made to work simply from an understanding for its importance, work will be actually required to see results. This work requires discipline which is too boring to muster it appears for most folks. They simply don't have the desire to see it through.