Stop “practicing” wind at the range.

[Dthomas3523]

This keeps coming up over and over. Everyone talks about practicing wind with a .223, 308, or .22.

Unless the wind is very switchy, once you get your wind call (usually first few shots), your wind “practice” is done for the day. Wind reading should be practiced anywhere except the range. Take a wind meter with you in normal life. Make a wind call based on what you see, feel, and hear. Compare to wind meter and learn.

The only guys losing matches due to a wind call or a few wind calls are the top 1-10% of the pack. No one else at a match is getting skull dragged because of the wind. I hear that shit all the time. “The wind changed.” Even if that is true, why didn’t you see your impact and make the correction? Because it’s just an excuse, that’s why.

The other 90-95% of shooters lose matches for the following:

Too much reticle wobble and trying to time their trigger slap
Not seeing their shots (misses or impacts)
Poor time management

The first two are from poor fundamentals and position building. The last one is from poor position building and poor economy of motion.

You can get all the practice you need to become an upper pack shooter at 25, 50, and 100yds with a barricade and/or a few other props. 25 and 50 with .22 and 100 with centerfire.

Hammer fundamentals and position building/time management. Don’t even bother with the wind. When you start losing competitive local matches by a point or two (that you cannot blame on the things I listed above), then you can possibly start contemplating about how to become a better Johnny on the spot wind reader.

 

[TheGerman]

 

[Gee Kay]

isn't it tornado season somewhere? good time to practice in the wind

 

[Olen_4504]

It’s just an excuse for them to build a second gun - let’s be real lol.

however - 90% of the places I shoot for practice and matches have actual switchy wind. It’s usually a head wind changing slightly and pushing you just off left or just off right. Sometimes gusts up and sometimes lays down. It changes a few times during a 90s stage even. So in that case - it’s worth trying to deliberately practice in. I’m still not great at it. I’m not good at catching when it switches before it makes me miss. I can see the miss and adjust - of course assuming there is something behind the target to see a miss on, or catch some trace (which I’m also working to be better at). But those targets that are hiding in the shade, or bright spots in the morning, or heavy mirage, or no backstop (just woods for example) - make it difficult to 100% of the time see a miss to adjust off of. That’s where I bleed points.

 

[acudaowner]

That would be funny running out side in a hurricane as houses are floating back and forth just to get your wind calling practice in . I know that's not what you said I could just picture someone trying it standing there looking at there kestrial come on come on as a house floats by or a car or two and a cow .

 

[Mike Casselton]

That would be funny running out side in a hurricane as houses are floating back and forth just to get your wind calling practice in . I know that's not what you said I could just picture someone trying it standing there looking at there kestrial come on come on as a house floats by or a car or two and a cow .

You mean something like this?

 

[seanh]

It must be nice shooting at those ranges that have consistent wind. Where I shoot it'll change from shot to shot. It's funny though, to watch people with their wind meters, go plug everything into their ballistic computer, make adjustments only to miss the shot because the wind change before they could even complete the ballistics calculation.

 

[A&8's]

My version of "practicing wind" is cranking on windage when there isn't any (or very little). Since I rarely (read never) dial for wind when there actually is wind, dialing wind during practice helps me hold off. It seems, our eyes want to naturally gravitate to the center dot, cross, vertical stadia. However, when we encounter wind and try to hold off, we tend to naturally migrate back to that 'center' holding point. By dialing for artificial wind in practice, it "trains" my brain that it is "OK" to not look at the center. I'll crank on an odd number, say 3.7mils and shoot. At least it has helped me.

 

[Gustav7]

That would be funny running out side in a hurricane as houses are floating back and forth just to get your wind calling practice in . I know that's not what you said I could just picture someone trying it standing there looking at there kestrial come on come on as a house floats by or a car or two and a cow .

Hahaha... that kestrel would be winding up like a turbo. "NNNNEEEEEE!!!!!"

 

[Dthomas3523]

Everyone always says where they shoot has the worst wind possible or switchy wind.

That and the “I know a guy that can run circles around everyone with his hunting rifle” are the two claims everyone seems to have everywhere.

Even if you have switchy wind, I promise that 90% or more shooters should be practicing 100 other things as they don’t shoot well enough to benefit from being a 2mph wind caller.

 

[308pirate]

Everyone always says where they shoot has the worst wind possible

I started shooting NRA highpower in Kansas..........I don't know if it's the worst place for wind, but it's close.

 

[OG10]

A simple exercise as you drive down the road observe grass, trees, and anything moving.Then compare to your weather conditions on a cell phoneie. I phone weather icon it's a good learning tool.I used to drive from Williston ND. to Dallas Tx a couple of times a month, I used this to get better at wind and keep from falling asleep. You can also do this with a range finder to get better at distance evaluating.

 

[hlee]

Just keep your wind meter on you as you’re doing your daily activities. Find yourself outside, just standing around, waiting on something? Bet there is a bit of wind from somewhere. Make a call. Then measure it. Were you close? If not, make a mental note. Back to daily tasks. Takes a few seconds...

But yeah, if you’re not doing what you need to do to benefit from that wind call, what does it matter? I’m pretty sure it was @Dthomas3523 in another thread that mentioned something like “Imagine that you had perfect fundamentals and never missed seeing an impact (whether on target or off). Now imagine you couldn’t make a wind call. Now further imagine you put your first round of every stage down range with just a rudimentary understanding of where it might hit, but could correct from there. Over the course of an 8 stage match you’d drop 8 points (and may well make impacts on some of those first rounds). Where would you place hitting 90%?” This is the point I think he is making.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Just keep your wind meter on you as you’re doing your daily activities. Find yourself outside, just standing around, waiting on something? Bet there is a bit of wind from somewhere. Make a call. Then measure it. Were you close? If not, make a mental note. Back to daily tasks. Takes a few seconds...

But yeah, if you’re not doing what you need to do to benefit from that wind call, what does it matter? I’m pretty sure it was @Dthomas3523 in another thread that mentioned something like “Imagine that you had perfect fundamentals and never missed seeing an impact (whether on target or off). Now imagine you couldn’t make a wind call. Now further imagine you put your first round of every stage down range with just a rudimentary understanding of where it might hit, but could correct from there. Over the course of an 8 stage match you’d drop 8 points (and may well make impacts on some of those first rounds). Where would you place hitting 90%?” This is the point I think he is making.

Basically this. Point is, wind should be the last thing on 90% of people’s minds when they are planning what they intend to train at the range.

Obviously wind plays a factor in our shooting.

But do you shoot well enough to exploit being a 2mph wind caller? Probably not. Become good enough to exploit it and then worry about it (as well as practicing everywhere else you are except the range).

 

[Deleted member 10043]

This keeps coming up over and over. Everyone talks about practicing wind with a .223, 308, or .22.

Unless the wind is very switchy, once you get your wind call (usually first few shots), your wind “practice” is done for the day. Wind reading should be practiced anywhere except the range. Take a wind meter with you in normal life. Make a wind call based on what you see, feel, and hear. Compare to wind meter and learn.

The only guys losing matches due to a wind call or a few wind calls are the top 1-10% of the pack. No one else at a match is getting skull dragged because of the wind. I hear that shit all the time. “The wind changed.” Even if that is true, why didn’t you see your impact and make the correction? Because it’s just an excuse, that’s why.

The other 90-95% of shooters lose matches for the following:

Too much reticle wobble and trying to time their trigger slap
Not seeing their shots (misses or impacts)
Poor time management

The first two are from poor fundamentals and position building. The last one is from poor position building and poor economy of motion.

You can get all the practice you need to become an upper pack shooter at 25, 50, and 100yds with a barricade and/or a few other props. 25 and 50 with .22 and 100 with centerfire.

Hammer fundamentals and position building/time management. Don’t even bother with the wind. When you start losing competitive local matches by a point or two (that you cannot blame on the things I listed above), then you can possibly start contemplating about how to become a better Johnny on the spot wind reader.

View attachment 7429817

What brought this up?

 

[Bigwheels]

Shoot across mountain valleys much?
Where I shoot 90% of the time I have to read the wind direction. Inc up/down drafts. Speed which changes every 15sec. Then there are the multiple wind columns to deal with.
I'll be practicing the wind for the rest of my life. But I don't shoot at "ranges".

 

[Nik H]

I started shooting NRA highpower in Kansas..........I don't know if it's the worst place for wind, but it's close.

Try living on an island. You get battered from every direction and it always is changing direction due to the landscape. I can watch the flag on my property move every which way.

Too bad I can't shoot here...LOL

With all due respect though @Dthomas3523 has a point with what he is saying. I built a rig that was shown in this thread

Do dot drills off of a barricade at 100 yards while someone is timing you. For me it was a very humbling experience

 

[Dthomas3523]

Of course, everyone is a bad ass wind caller and has the most crazy wind ever.

Yet 90% of everyone gets skull dragged at matches.

 

[Dthomas3523]

What brought this up?

Everyone constantly talking about using .22, .223, and .308 for wind practice.

 

[Matches Malone]

Shoot across mountain valleys much?
Where I shoot 90% of the time I have to read the wind direction. Inc up/down drafts. Speed which changes every 15sec. Then there are the multiple wind columns to deal with.
I'll be practicing the wind for the rest of my life. But I don't shoot at "ranges".

The OP was pretty specific with talking about training wind for PRS. At least that’s how the words were displayed, and that’s probably because of where the majority of people’s experience are at. Not so much real world ridge to mountain type shooting with up/down drafts, wind gradients, and terrain affected winds like katabatic wind and relying on one shot to matter.

I would agree anyways that buying a “training” gun is stupid still none the less.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Did you get your bolt lift thing with 6GT figured out

Yes. Went to 6x47 and 6dasher. The problem cleared right up.

 

[ScottDWallace]

Yes. Went to 6x47 and 6dasher. The problem cleared right up.

6x47 is the next tube. Really looking forward to it.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

Shoot across mountain valleys much?
Where I shoot 90% of the time I have to read the wind direction. Inc up/down drafts. Speed which changes every 15sec. Then there are the multiple wind columns to deal with.
I'll be practicing the wind for the rest of my life. But I don't shoot at "ranges".

Wind at one's square range / favorite spot in the woods blows in a predominate direction based on the time of year and the terrain features are set, ie if you shoot there a lot you should be able to / most likely can, read the wind from the shooter's position just by sound and what you feel against your face.

IMHO once a person has a handle on speed and direction, Wind Practice is really more about shooting in different locations and most particularly different terrain features.

Terrain is what throws a wrench in all things, particularly where it splits wind or in the case of cross wind and a steep draw where it will boil back in the opposite direction of what your reading. Flat ground makes a big difference.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

“The wind changed.”

Code for " I didn't pay attention to the wind between shots."

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

This keeps coming up over and over. Everyone talks about practicing wind with a .223, 308, or .22.

Unless the wind is very switchy, once you get your wind call (usually first few shots), your wind “practice” is done for the day. Wind reading should be practiced anywhere except the range. Take a wind meter with you in normal life. Make a wind call based on what you see, feel, and hear. Compare to wind meter and learn.

The only guys losing matches due to a wind call or a few wind calls are the top 1-10% of the pack. No one else at a match is getting skull dragged because of the wind. I hear that shit all the time. “The wind changed.” Even if that is true, why didn’t you see your impact and make the correction? Because it’s just an excuse, that’s why.

The other 90-95% of shooters lose matches for the following:

Too much reticle wobble and trying to time their trigger slap
Not seeing their shots (misses or impacts)
Poor time management

The first two are from poor fundamentals and position building. The last one is from poor position building and poor economy of motion.

You can get all the practice you need to become an upper pack shooter at 25, 50, and 100yds with a barricade and/or a few other props. 25 and 50 with .22 and 100 with centerfire.

Hammer fundamentals and position building/time management. Don’t even bother with the wind. When you start losing competitive local matches by a point or two (that you cannot blame on the things I listed above), then you can possibly start contemplating about how to become a better Johnny on the spot wind reader.

View attachment 7429817

Time on Task.
Nothing better than talking shit with a mate, and plinking away on a property.
No stress required.

 

[SmartDonkey]

Really this thread should be titled how you deal with wind.... and you shouldn't assume that its the same across the board. I haven't shot in Kansas or Texas so I wont give advice on how to deal with it there...

Yes, everyone thinks that the wind is the worse where they live. Where I'm at we don't usually get the crazy high speeds, but lots of 20 mph days with gusts and direction changes. Its not uncommon to see the flags at the Post Office and the Library blowing different directions- and they are only a few 100yrds apart.

It's very rare that I can use the same wind call the whole time. Just the other day I was shooting and using a 4moa hold (MOA is a linear measurement that was popular with cavemen hunting dinosaurs.) The wind died down at where I was shooting from, but I actually had to start holding 5-6 moa because of what it was doing down range. If you were going by a wind meter you would have decreased the hold.

Also, "the wind changed" isn't necessarily an excuse. It's still my fault, I didn't notice the change or I didn't correctly compensate for it. But stating a fact isn't making excuses.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Really this thread should be titled how you deal with wind.... and you shouldn't assume that its the same across the board. I haven't shot in Kansas or Texas so I wont give advice on how to deal with it there...

Yes, everyone thinks that the wind is the worse where they live. Where I'm at we don't usually get the crazy high speeds, but lots of 20 mph days with gusts and direction changes. Its not uncommon to see the flags at the Post Office and the Library blowing different directions- and they are only a few 100yrds apart.

It's very rare that I can use the same wind call the whole time. Just the other day I was shooting and using a 4moa hold (MOA is a linear measurement that was popular with cavemen hunting dinosaurs.) The wind died down at where I was shooting from, but I actually had to start holding 5-6 moa because of what it was doing down range. If you were going by a wind meter you would have decreased the hold.

Also, "the wind changed" isn't necessarily an excuse. It's still my fault, I didn't notice the change or I didn't correctly compensate for it. But stating a fact isn't making excuses.

The “wind changed” is always an excuse for 90% of shooters. 2moa targets under 600 make up for quite a bit of wind. Usually the same shooters claiming the wind changed are the mid to low pack. You don’t see guys shooting 80% of the cof talk about the winding chanting more than a shot or two.

Thread is titled as it should be. You don’t need to be shooting to practice wind for most people’s purposes. The exception would be across canyons it odd terrain, as you would need to send a round to verify your call.

This is very rare for most people.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Disclaimer: if you’re a top pack shooter, many of these posts aren’t for that audience.

 

[Gustav7]

most ignorant comment I have read on the 'hide' in quite a while.. and that is saying something

first.. you have to specify what kind of 'match' .. if your target is 2MOA tactical shoot.. yeah.. you can do OK with a +/- 5mph wind call for all but the longest shots..

if your game is 1/2MOA at 1000 .. where for every 1 knot of wind you are off by more than a scoring Ring and dropping points in a game where perfect scores are now required on multiple strings to place.. you are a fool for saying that practicing winds sub caliber on a range is 'worthless'

you show me any other than a perfect day.. and I will show you the wind varying by several knots moment to moment..
and when shooting sub caliber at a distance that closely matches the MOA wind drift of your match caliber.. you will gain VALUABLE expertise in making a wind call on mirage, grass, leaves etc in 1 knot increments.. and on long shots you might have multiple winds between you and the target all of which a real wind guru can spot and shoot...

keep your ignorant opinions on practice and skills to yourself.. but the guys that can shoot.. ALL of them call wind far better than I ever will ...
you can teach someone to shoot tight up close and I have.. the fundamentals as you call it.. that can't hit the 5MOA backer on a breezy day at 1000 because a 5mph on and off breeze blows them off target...

and for those that suggest just using a wind meter...

the wind at the shooters position means nothing compared to wind at the target where the round has slowed way down... and conditions at the barrel rarely are the same as at the target unless you are shooting inside 100 yards

Am I the only one who actually read everything he said???

Its a generalization. It applies to the 75% of shooters who are still novice to intermediate... the same 75% who miss targets at 400-1000yds because of their fundamentals ....and then blame it on wind, or worse they actually genuinely believe it wasn't their own shooting issue and the wind is really the problem. It also really sounds like he's referencing PRS style matches. He's not talking about 1000yd F-Class and that seems very obvious to me.

We RARELY give advice based on the minority... thats why most instructors don't teach fringe theories and oddball situations. They teach to the majority of shooters for the majority of rifles for the majority of situations.

This forum/site is made up of the 75%.... If you're in the 25% then go practice wind all you want.

But as a newer precision shooter, this is the advice alot of guys on here need. Stop spending 90% of your time practicing wind and ignoring your fundamentals.

I feel like the message was pretty clear and everyones like ...."WeLl WhAt If ThE wInD wAs NiNeTy MpH??!!"

 

[hlee]

most ignorant comment I have read on the 'hide' in quite a while.. and that is saying something

first.. you have to specify what kind of 'match' .. if your target is 2MOA tactical shoot.. yeah.. you can do OK with a +/- 5mph wind call for all but the longest shots..

if your game is 1/2MOA at 1000 .. where for every 1 knot of wind you are off by more than a scoring Ring and dropping points in a game where perfect scores are now required on multiple strings to place.. you are a fool for saying that practicing winds sub caliber on a range is 'worthless'

you show me any other than a perfect day.. and I will show you the wind varying by several knots moment to moment..
and when shooting sub caliber at a distance that closely matches the MOA wind drift of your match caliber.. you will gain VALUABLE expertise in making a wind call on mirage, grass, leaves etc in 1 knot increments.. and on long shots you might have multiple winds between you and the target all of which a real wind guru can spot and shoot...

keep your ignorant opinions on practice and skills to yourself.. but the guys that can shoot.. ALL of them call wind far better than I ever will ...
you can teach someone to shoot tight up close and I have.. the fundamentals as you call it.. that can't hit the 5MOA backer on a breezy day at 1000 because a 5mph on and off breeze blows them off target...

and for those that suggest just using a wind meter...

the wind at the shooters position means nothing compared to wind at the target where the round has slowed way down... and conditions at the barrel rarely are the same as at the target unless you are shooting inside 100 yards

Jesus fucking Christ jumping on a pogo stick. You must be the only one here that doesn’t realize that dthomas specifically called out prs style competitions for this thread. You know, where most of the stages are not shot while laying on the ground, but from rickety props or improvised positions. Where you have 90 seconds to make 10 or more hits, often on multiple targets from multiple positions. Not 20 or more minutes to make 20 or less shots, all after shooting a bunch of shots that don’t count for record. Build a position, take the shot, move, repeat. Maybe 10 or more times in 90 seconds. And, the first shot of the day counts. Oh yeah, and there is no one to tell you where your bullet hit, except for you. No one in the pits pulling targets and putting up those scoring discs. The spotter behind you is just calling hits and misses.

Yeah, ignorant...

 

[Dthomas3523]

most ignorant comment I have read on the 'hide' in quite a while.. and that is saying something

first.. you have to specify what kind of 'match' .. if your target is 2MOA tactical shoot.. yeah.. you can do OK with a +/- 5mph wind call for all but the longest shots..

if your game is 1/2MOA at 1000 .. where for every 1 knot of wind you are off by more than a scoring Ring and dropping points in a game where perfect scores are now required on multiple strings to place.. you are a fool for saying that practicing winds sub caliber on a range is 'worthless'

you show me any other than a perfect day.. and I will show you the wind varying by several knots moment to moment..
and when shooting sub caliber at a distance that closely matches the MOA wind drift of your match caliber.. you will gain VALUABLE expertise in making a wind call on mirage, grass, leaves etc in 1 knot increments.. and on long shots you might have multiple winds between you and the target all of which a real wind guru can spot and shoot...

keep your ignorant opinions on practice and skills to yourself.. but the guys that can shoot.. ALL of them call wind far better than I ever will ...
you can teach someone to shoot tight up close and I have.. the fundamentals as you call it.. that can't hit the 5MOA backer on a breezy day at 1000 because a 5mph on and off breeze blows them off target...

and for those that suggest just using a wind meter...

the wind at the shooters position means nothing compared to wind at the target where the round has slowed way down... and conditions at the barrel rarely are the same as at the target unless you are shooting inside 100 yards

See your way out of the thread then.

You brought up every thing this post was specifically not about to make counter points, dumbass.

 

[SmartDonkey]

These are a few reasons I respectfully disagree with your view.

"Wind reading should be practiced anywhere except the range." I don't see it that way, if you would have said that wind reading should be practiced at more than just the range then I'd agree. At the range is the only place where you can get instant feedback on your wind reading skills. Yes, you can have a wind meter give you instant feedback on speed- but now you also have to determine the direction of the wind relative to your shooting position and determine an actual wind value.

It's also good to practice learning distances with a rangefinder- but that is still different than wind. With a rangefinder you get the distance and you are done- you can truly do that one anyplace. With the wind even if you do correctly identify the wind speed you are not done. If you have a 10 mph full value wind at your location it is rare for that to be the same conditions to a target 900-1000yrds away. Often it is much less because of wind speed or a cross wind- occasionally it is a larger effect on the bullet. The only way you will get good at that is at the range- hopefully learning as much from your missed shots as your hits.

If it worked to just learn the wind at your location then wind would be as easy to address as distance- because shooting in a constant wind is really the same as shooting in no wind.

 

[Dthomas3523]

These are a few reasons I respectfully disagree with your view.

"Wind reading should be practiced anywhere except the range." I don't see it that way, if you would have said that wind reading should be practiced at more than just the range then I'd agree. At the range is the only place where you can get instant feedback on your wind reading skills. Yes, you can have a wind meter give you instant feedback on speed- but now you also have to determine the direction of the wind relative to your shooting position and determine an actual wind value.

It's also good to practice learning distances with a rangefinder- but that is still different than wind. With a rangefinder you get the distance and you are done- you can truly do that one anyplace. With the wind even if you do correctly identify the wind speed you are not done. If you have a 10 mph full value wind at your location it is rare for that to be the same conditions to a target 900-1000yrds away. Often it is much less because of wind speed or a cross wind- occasionally it is a larger effect on the bullet. The only way you will get good at that is at the range- hopefully learning as much from your missed shots as your hits.

If it worked to just learn the wind at your location then wind would be as easy to address as distance- because shooting in a constant wind is really the same as shooting in no wind.

Wind at most ranges where one will practice at isn’t going to be challenging enough to be of any beneficial practice.

I promise you that if you ask any world class wind caller how they got good, it was not sending rounds. It was one of two or both ways:

Using a wind meter to check their guess at their location.

Having someone down range with a meter at a location where they read the wind visually and get confirmation from that person via phone or radio.

Sending rounds is much better value with any other skill one needs working on, until a shooter is being hindered by their inability to read wind down to 2mph or so.

I’ve clarified several times this post (and most on this site) are not for the top tier/elite level shooters. This is for the 90% of shooters who are out there worried about the wrong shit.

 

[Ray40]

it was the wind is like a bow hunter saying I missed because I hit a branch.

 

[308pirate]

Shoot across mountain valleys much?
Where I shoot 90% of the time I have to read the wind direction. Inc up/down drafts. Speed which changes every 15sec. Then there are the multiple wind columns to deal with.
I'll be practicing the wind for the rest of my life. But I don't shoot at "ranges".

You missed the point entirely

But thanks for playing

 

[308pirate]

The OP was pretty specific with talking about training wind for PRS. At least that’s how the words were displayed, and that’s probably because of where the majority of people’s experience are at. Not so much real world ridge to mountain type shooting with up/down drafts, wind gradients, and terrain affected winds like katabatic wind and relying on one shot to matter.

I would agree anyways that buying a “training” gun is stupid still none the less.

The point is still the same. Being a kick ass wind caller is worthless if your fundamentals suck.