strange range rules

[rockwind1]

so i belong to this great range, one of two i belong to. 15 minutes from my house. the other one is 45 minutes. at this range we have a long range section, goes out to 1000 yds. it's a great place to do load developement, but recently, the powers that be put up a sign saying "no magnum rounds or anything over 8mm and of, course, no steel bullets) because of the targets. obviously, we dont' want damaged steel targets, makes perfect sense, especially no steel rounds. totally on board, i've never even shot a steel bullet as far as i know.

but my main hunting rifles are 6.5 saum and 7mm rem mag. so now i am confused though. can't use them i guess which is sad. but if i bought a 6.5 prc, it's not a magnum so it is within the rules but it sends the same berger faster than what i shoot in my 6.5 saum and if i bought a 28 nosler, same thing, not a magnum and it would throw my 180 berger faster than in my 7 rem mag.

how can i convince them that the rules don't make any sense in some regards.

what do other ranges do? obviously, steel bullets are out of the equation cause that is a no -brainer. it seems like it should be based on muzzle velocity or energy.

also, i thought, i would put up my own paper targets for load development or even zeroing, but for some reason, someone said that also was not allowed.

i just don't want to spend thousands on a 28 nosler or a 6.5 prc.

has anyone else run into this? what are some good intelligent reasons to bring up.

 

[XLR308]

Just because magnum isn't in the name doesn't mean it isn't a magnum. I would think any modern bottle neck rifle round with a .540" bolt face would be considered a magnum even the little WSSM rounds.

But I guess it could be open to discussion.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

As XLR38 said, 6.5 PRC and 28 Nosler may not have "magnum" in their names, but I think they are both magnum cartridges. The 6.5 PRC is basically a necked down 30 rcm, while the 28 Nosler is based on a cut down Remington Ultra Mag case. I would think both of those cartridges would fall under any sort of prohibition on magnums.

I would double check on shooting paper, as it seems that's the most likely route for compromise.

 

[flyer]

If they don't like paper, see if they will let you set up your own steel.

MK Machine has a labor day sale on some AR500 targets.

 

[davsco]

maybe a velocity max or energy max vs 'magnum' terminology. setting up own steel (and/or paper targets) sounds like it should work.

 

[rockwind1]

does anyone know how other ranges handle it with their ar500 steel? cause that is what we have at the range and i have shot it all day long with my saum with zero effect. that ar500 is amazing stuff. not even a dent.

 

[Sniper266]

The range i go to, all steel of for shooting with anything short of a 50 bmg.
It never hurts to ask, “what is a magnum cartridge?” Bolt face, case capacity, case length, velocity, bullet diameter, long action, short action or magnum length action? Or can the cartridge just not have the scary “M” word in its name.

 

[J McGriddle]

We have steel and 50s are allowed. I've seen AR500 eat a .50 BMG several times from 100 yards and nothing more than a scratch.

 

[J McGriddle]

Maybe the berms arent up to code? Page 18.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3BYikWBzi9XMZJv6CEZvWP

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

I doubt the DOE controls the OP's range .

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[308pirate]

Most ranges are run by retards

 

[Fig]

^^^^^THAT

I question wether people who think a magnum will hurt AR500 have ever owned a target. I have a few dozzen with thousands of impacts, many .300WM and .338l, and a coat of spray paint and my targets practically look new. I shoot only match bullets, never bonded, and certainly not steel bullets.

If your steel is getting chewed up you are either shooting steel bullets, or it is not AR500, or it is AR500 cut with heat (no longer AR500).

 

[SONIC SAAMI]

so i belong to this great range, one of two i belong to. 15 minutes from my house. the other one is 45 minutes. at this range we have a long range section, goes out to 1000 yds. it's a great place to do load developement, but recently, the powers that be put up a sign saying "no magnum rounds or anything over 8mm and of, course, no steel bullets) because of the targets. obviously, we dont' want damaged steel targets, makes perfect sense, especially no steel rounds. totally on board, i've never even shot a steel bullet as far as i know.

but my main hunting rifles are 6.5 saum and 7mm rem mag. so now i am confused though. can't use them i guess which is sad. but if i bought a 6.5 prc, it's not a magnum so it is within the rules but it sends the same berger faster than what i shoot in my 6.5 saum and if i bought a 28 nosler, same thing, not a magnum and it would throw my 180 berger faster than in my 7 rem mag.

how can i convince them that the rules don't make any sense in some regards.

what do other ranges do? obviously, steel bullets are out of the equation cause that is a no -brainer. it seems like it should be based on muzzle velocity or energy.

also, i thought, i would put up my own paper targets for load development or even zeroing, but for some reason, someone said that also was not allowed.

i just don't want to spend thousands on a 28 nosler or a 6.5 prc.

has anyone else run into this? what are some good intelligent reasons to bring up.

Kinda sounds like you are talking about range #9 at DSRPC.

 

[shoobe01]

Yeah, probably uninformed people, working off preconceptions, lack of data etc. I'd ask what they mean by "magnum" and ... be gentle, be careful. Be prepared with energy figures et al but you do not want to:
1) Piss them off by showing them up. Many fudds don't do well when called out on their traditional views of anything.
2) Make it worse; you may be able to get them to banish all bottlenecked cartridges or something. I've seen worse happen with range rules arguments.

I'd start with asking, then come back (at a board meeting or whatever they have where you may raise issues like this) with your counter proposal to make sure all your ducks are in a row. Find out if you can get a number of other members to join in, perhaps.

The only places I have seen restrict steel seriously, to avoid damage from High Powered Rifles® simply has a no-point-blank sort of rule. Usually, 100 yards is minimum range, as some mentioned above.

There is a tiny chance they are worried about berm damage or overall range safety. Also be prepared for those discussions or concerns.


Also: jealous of your ready access to 1000.

 

[Mooncake]

‘Tis always better to ask forgiveness than permission.

I’d carry on as you have been and see what happens. It’ll be cheaper to buy your own steel and find a spot to set it up than to buy another rifle to comply

 

[Aggrofish]

That's what I was thinking. There are certain people that run that range that make up rules that suit them. I read some BS about the target frames getting damaged.

Kinda sounds like you are talking about range #9 at DSRPC.

 

[branson1369]

Severe “Elmer Fudd” syndrome! Lots of old bullseye/bench rest shooters and wannabes on club boards cannot come to grips that steel and frames are consumables. It took me and others over 3 years to convince a NC club to allow steel. Once we did it took several more to prove costs actually go down even with repair/replace of steel. The reason is folks seem to prefer steel vs cardboard/paper target for quick sight in and plinking which reduces range cost of cardboard/paper targets

So I relocate to the WNC mountains and join a great club with one flaw no steel allowed...ugh

 

[buffalowinter]

I think there are three possible solutions:

1. Just ask if you can use a particular cartridge.

2. It is easier to ask forgiveness than get permission. Just shoot whatever and plead ignorance if it becomes an issue.

3. Buy the club a target or bring your own. If you had your own range, you'd have to buy your own targets anyway. I probably have over 50 steel targets.

 

[chasedeer]

I guess buying your own steel target would be most practical solution they put up the rules for a reason beat know to them.

 

[lash]

If at all possible, ask if they will let you hang your own steel. Or bring some T-posts and hang your steel that way. It's the quickest setup and removal, but the initial steel targets cost a bit more due to the T-post setup. I also have many many AR500 targets that get set up as needed depending upon where I am and what I am shooting that day.

If researching steel and potential damage due to energy, remember that "speed kills" when it comes to steel. Do a little bit of searching and you'll see that those that have done testing on AR 500 steel have found that it's the speed of the projectile much more than the caliber size or retained energy that does the most damage to steel.

 

[Fig]

I have been told that at Bench Rest in St. Louis they make you schedule a qualification shoot at every distance beyond 200yds, and you can't skip one or knock two out in the same day. Hence it would probably take me 6 months to qualify to shoot 1000m just because of scheduling.

It's a really nice club that I will never belong to because of price and all the idiots who think they know everything there is to know about shooting. Barricade practice would probably make their heads explode.

 

[Bradu]

I have been told that at Bench Rest in St. Louis they make you schedule a qualification shoot at every distance beyond 200yds, and you can't skip one or knock two out in the same day. Hence it would probably take me 6 months to qualify to shoot 1000m just because of scheduling.

It's a really nice club that I will never belong to because of price and all the idiots who think they know everything there is to know about shooting. Barricade practice would probably make their heads explode.

I was looking into joining there and read about the qualifying part. Is it true there is an additional fee to use the 1000 yard range?

 

[lash]

FYI. Here's a snapshot of a post I snagged from the Hide a couple of years ago. It's good information for those trying to decide what steel is best for their application.

 

[308pirate]

Bench Rest in St. Louis

The name says it all.

 

[Campguy308]

I am a member of a range that has always been a 200 yard BR club until recently when we setup a new 600 yard range. None of them know shit. They made some rules about nothing over 30 caliber at range steel, but they let people shoot 22-250 and 220 swift at 200 yard plates. When we started doing practical matches on the 600 yard side with barricades and bolt guns that have DBMs, all the older BR guys shit a brick, and haven't been seen since

 

[Squat]

the range i seldom shoot at in south central FL, doesn't let you bring your own steel, and they shut their 1000 yard down.... because neighbors complained about bullets landing near them..... No one grasps ballistics.

So yeah i would ask to bring steel but dont be surprised when they say no. I am looking to buy land just for that reason. Sick of these rules

 

[Campguy308]

the range i seldom shoot at in south central FL, doesn't let you bring your own steel, and they shut their 1000 yard down.... because neighbors complained about bullets landing near them..... No one grasps ballistics.

So yeah i would ask to bring steel but dont be surprised when they say no. I am looking to buy land just for that reason. Sick of these rules

I'm curious about how far the neighbors were from the range?

 

[Squat]

I'm curious about how far the neighbors were from the range?

Not that far... which made me laugh that no one had the brains to drop a ballistics chart down and say... no bullets would have landed on the land. They said people were launching rounds over the berm.

I think they wanted an excuse not to keep the 1000 yard range.

I did find some land I am interested in. 4670x 500....

 

[Campguy308]

Not that far... which made me laugh that no one had the brains to drop a ballistics chart down and say... no bullets would have landed on the land. They said people were launching rounds over the berm.

I think they wanted an excuse not to keep the 1000 yard range.

I did find some land I am interested in. 4670x 500....

I worry about our club getting into shit with the neighbors. Fortunately, I can shoot to 585 yards off my back porch. And to 1000 by driving into the next pasture

 

[Squat]

I worry about our club getting into shit with the neighbors. Fortunately, I can shoot to 585 yards off my back porch. And to 1000 by driving into the next pasture

Id have a ballistics chart handy... unlike the club near me that killed the 1000 range after i paid dues, that didnt even flinch, they built a huge berm after being told it was out of code..... what code there is no code but they dont listen so what can you say.

I am very jealous of you.

 

[Clearlight]

Any range within distance of housing is going to based on some kind of template , designed and accepted
by whatever authority administers governence over the ranges operating permit . A lot of ranges worldwide
have an energy restriction , and a velocity restriction . My local range is 4000 fps , and around 4000 lb of
energy .

They also need ricochet danger space : steel cored projectiles have the delightful habit of deflecting off
hard surfaces and ending up on nearby roads , lounge rooms etc . Novice and or, stupid shooters like to
shoot at things they shouldn’t , like target frames and other infrastructure . A 308 at 1 k will dint a mild steel
target frame . My 300 NM or 338 LM will mess up mild steel at 1 k with conventional lead cored target
projectiles . The ‘ no Magnum ‘ thing is a bit 1980’s , but is most likely more related to energy and velocity,
but just expressed in a more simple fashion that bubba can interpret .

EDIT : something to consider - an accidental discharge from a 300 NM fired at around 40 deg up angle ,
still has 240 ish pounds of energy , 680 ish fps remaing at : 7500 yards ........

 

[sandwarrior]

FWIW, the silhouette range at NRA-Raton has the same rules, to include centerfire .22's. Which means a .223 or 5.56 isn't allowed on that range. No WSSMs either, although I wouldn't really call them magnums. Yet you can shoot the darling of long range bench which is the 6.5x284 or it's little brother the 6x284.

It doesn't make all that much sense as somebody just wanted to lay down a hard fast rule without checking all the facts. Or, without moving along with technology,

 

[Mike Casselton]

the range i seldom shoot at in south central FL, doesn't let you bring your own steel, and they shut their 1000 yard down.... because neighbors complained about bullets landing near them..... No one grasps ballistics.

So yeah i would ask to bring steel but dont be surprised when they say no. I am looking to buy land just for that reason. Sick of these rules

Manatee?
I hope JTAC opens soon. It's 15-20 minutes from home.

 

[Squat]

Manatee?
I hope JTAC opens soon. It's 15-20 minutes from home.

Tell me more? I am looking for land and might ahve found some but its in GA. I Am not impressed with how the other place runs things. They arent the know it alls they think they are.

 

[McCrazy]

I'm waiting for JTAC Ranch to open too but from what I heard last week, they still haven't turned any dirt yet to start building. I don't know if they are waiting on permits or what.

http://www.theledger.com/news/20170...rs-vote-5-0-to-ok-new-gun-range-near-mulberry

 

[Squat]

I'm waiting for JTAC Ranch to open too but from qhat I heard last week, they still haven't turned any dirt yet to start building. I don't know if they are waiting on permits or what.

http://www.theledger.com/news/20170...rs-vote-5-0-to-ok-new-gun-range-near-mulberry

Wow.... I cant wait.

as to another place near me.
I would just rather not deal with being treated like a total idiot and have to qualify everytime I show up. Then getting told I need to learn to shoot because I questioned the .6 MOA target at 600 as being the standard for 3 hit qualification. I hit it 5 straight for the 4th time... then i went back twice to find the 1000 was shut down. Oh and i could bring steel, but then after buying I cant use the steel. Its just badly run

 

[Bulletsmith]

I have to ask, Can you shoot a .22 Magnum ? Seriously I would see if they can go by velocity not the "magnum" status of some calibers.

 

[McCrazy]

The part that kills me at Manatee with the qualification process is that you have to qualify for every rifle and every caliber, and then requalify every time you do load development. They should just verify whether the shooter can competently shoot out to the distance and be done with it.

 

[TripleBull]

I'm all for a range having safety standards, but don't think I'd be too happy with the situations you're describing. We mostly go shoot on public land and deal with setup/breakdown just to have the freedom to do our own thing. I wish I could afford to buy a 4 x 5 mile piece of property...

 

[Bradu]

The part that kills me at Manatee with the qualification process is that you have to qualify for every rifle and every caliber, and then requalify every time you do load development. They should just verify whether the shooter can competently shoot out to the distance and be done with it.

Holy shit, that's a little excessive. You can either shoot or you can't.

 

[lash]

Holy shit, that's a little excessive. You can either shoot or you can't.

Exactly. That is more than a little excessive, that is ridiculous.

 

[Twitchy]

Manatee has turned the stomachs of a lot of great shooters. I'm a member and used to go out at least twice a month for load development/fun in addition to matches. Now I only go for competitions. The "qualification" is sort of a joke when you can show up to any of the many matches and shoot without even showing a smidge of competency with ballistics/trajectories. I will say that the match directors are quick to kick someone who clearly is out of their depth.

What is killing it with so many seasoned shooters, to include more than a few national record holders, is the BS that keeps popping up down there. The club direction and management seem to change thier minds from one day to the next. All of the "old guard" have been run out of there. I love the club, but like many others am likely not to renew membership. Just isn't worth the money anymore.

As far as JTAC, that place has been saying they're "in development" for more than a few years. I wouldn't hold my breath on firing a shot there sooner than a couple more years, if ever.

 

[Squat]

Blah. I’m looking for land and think I might have found some that goes to almost 5000 feet. It’s hunting land but 5 hours from me.
FYI I’m new to the Tampa area and see everything you are talking about. They remind me of a car club that couldn’t afford to rent the track on their own so they use “memberships “ to get more funds while trying to make it their “own personal club”.

Yup I agree on the qualifications. Getting told by someone that can’t hit the target they want me too is just funny. I will say I’ve never seen so many “ex snipers” in one spot.... my favorites are the ones load testing factory ammo 6.5cm with 10 different boxes and they never zeroed a one.... yup you should be the guy qualifying me.

The worst is hiding behind legalities.... they love that one

 

[Mike Casselton]

I haven't been back there since Gene (Gunny) left.
The ROs were treating everyone (except their buddies) like they were stupid.
The Shoot Shack is 20 minutes away and it goes to 300 yards. The issue is it truly is a shack but Gary and family are really nice people so I can overlook certain things.
I got excited a couple of years ago when I first heard about JTAC.
Nothing seems to be moving forward and the only info for updates is on Facetard. I don't do Facefarce any more.

Looks like I'm stuck at 300 or put up with Manatee again. I guess I'll keep shooting short range...

 

[Mike Casselton]

There's also the Woming Antelope Club in the Largo area. I've been by there but have never done any shooting at the club.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Here's the range at Manatee. The direction of fire faces N-NW.
All housing is south and south east of the range.
Everything to the West and North is crop land.

A very small area to the North East has some houses.
All of them were built long after the range was in operation.

 

[308pirate]

The part that kills me at Manatee with the qualification process is that you have to qualify for every rifle and every caliber, and then requalify every time you do load development. They should just verify whether the shooter can competently shoot out to the distance and be done with it.

 

[Queequeg]

Not that far... which made me laugh that no one had the brains to drop a ballistics chart down and say... no bullets would have landed on the land. They said people were launching rounds over the berm.

I think they wanted an excuse not to keep the 1000 yard range.

I did find some land I am interested in. 4670x 500....

Back in 2013 or so, Ren, Dirt Dart and I were down in the valley spray painting targets while the public line was cold. I worked the steel targets at the banks at 565 and 600 yards while they hit our steel placed in various spots in the valley, all the way to 1000 yards.

A couple of rounds zipped over head, and then a third. I looked down the valley and saw both Ren and Dirt Dart prone, behind the golf cart while I was standing on the left side of the 600 bank.

Another round zipped overhead and I figured I was about to catch it and started waving my arms trying to get the attention of the RO's and other shooters, totally forgetting that our 5 or 6 friends back on the line would never have let anyone shoot while we were down there!

Turned out to be people shooting over at "Area 51", over on the Northwest flank of the club.

When asked by Gunny Pitts what the commotion was all about, we told him that shots flew overhead, going east, north east, in the direction of the homes off of Logue road. His response was "Anyone hit? Then go shoot!"

While my specialty is Gynecology, I understand enough about external ballistics to figure that rounds flying overhead, and well out of and over the berms were going off the property. And definitely well away from the beaten zone North / Northwest of the range.

There were definitely slobs aplenty there, on the public line, in the old days but the people at Area 51 seemed to be able to do whatever the hell they wanted to over there.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Roswell gun club is very protective of their steel targets. Each range has its own limitations. I've seen members lose their key on the spot breaking rules and destroying club targets. But we have some ranges mainly for hunters with expendable hanging silhouette. But at any range you can set up your own steel and shooting anything less than .50 BMG.

 

[308pirate]

they put up the rules for a reason beat know to them.

Most rules like the one the OP is talking about have no basis in fact or reality. As I said before, most gun clubs are run by complete fucking idiots.