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Sub MOA Sniper AR10 dor around $1000 without optics?
- Thread starter AKMsoldier
- Start date
What epoxy are you using for this? How are you swapping barrels as needed or is the upper pretty much a disposable item at that point?
I watched a video about PSA AR10 doing 1/2 MOA bur from the bench. I dont know if it means anything.
I used Loctite 620. It's green and meant to fill voids, not necessarily like an epoxy. I haven't had to take it apart though, but so far so good
Since the 80s I have used plain blue loctite. When you want to change barrels stick a wood dowel/broom stick in the receiver and tap it out.
ive never had a problem with the parts ive bought from psa but i dont think they churn out 1/2 moa rifles on the regular.
For what use and what distance would you want to shoot? Sub-MOA probably wanting a bolt action. Ruger Precision in 6.5 Creedmoor is an excellent shooter but upgrade the trigger and get a quality scope. Order it and get a longer barrel on it. $1200 +/- plus a scope (whole nother thread!)
I don't think you can reliably get a hyper accurate gas gun for $1,000. Sure, you'll come across some that shoot - but that won't be the norm. I put together a large frame AR with a 20-inch .308 barrel that shoots around 1/2 minute, but for what I paid in parts might as well have just bought a JP Enterprises, GAP-10, or Seekins SP-10. I think the parts cost me over 2 grand once it's all said and done and that's not including optics, bipods, etc.
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I'd try
Best bet is probably to build it. Not at simple as an AR-15, but still doable unless you're an ape. Drop the most coin on the barrel, maybe WC, Criterion or BA. I'd be looking at toolcraft BCGs, blemished aero receivers, an a2 stock and a cheap floating rail. Used and blemished parts would be key, but you'd still probably have a some difficulty coming in under $1200. I think MOA is doable though, especially if you stretched the budget a hair. Patience and willingness to shop around would be key.
Best bet is probably to build it. Not at simple as an AR-15, but still doable unless you're an ape. Drop the most coin on the barrel, maybe WC, Criterion or BA. I'd be looking at toolcraft BCGs, blemished aero receivers, an a2 stock and a cheap floating rail. Used and blemished parts would be key, but you'd still probably have a some difficulty coming in under $1200. I think MOA is doable though, especially if you stretched the budget a hair. Patience and willingness to shop around would be key.
It looks like a cheap PSA AR10 would be sufficient if using it for less than 500 yards. More expensive bolt action rifle (I am willing to pay extra for cool tactical looks here) would be better for 600-1000 yards. Basically 2 rifles instead of 1. What do you think?
So I went back through my docs, $1200 must have been what I told my wife. It was going to be about $1800, but with used parts and sales I saved about $400. Came in right at $1400, finished it in March
I picked up a Blackhole Weaponry barrel for about $360. Can customize it to your hearts content. They fall under Columbia River Arms now.
I would also recommend X-Caliber barrels, I havent shot them but it would be my other choice.
I bought the B.A.R.T II from X-Caliber. Laps the receiver and doubles as an upper vice block so you can torque the barrel nut to spec, Its a nice tool to have on hand.
B.A.R.T 2.0
All B.A.R.T. Purchases include up to one (1) .5oz bottle of lapping compound at no extra cost per order. Step 1: Tighten BART's head in a bench vise on the "Flats" provided. Step 2: Put barrel in upper. Slide barrel nut over barrel and finger tighten barrel nut to upper. Step 3: Slide upper...
www.x-caliber.net
I just ordered an x-caliber prefit in 6.5 PRC for an origin. I hope it shoots well. It seems like its a love them or hate them situation with x-caliber. It was $329 threaded and spun up by crown ridge in about a day and a half. They do benchmark barrels for $450-500 too. I don't think they do gas guns though.
If I were going to have a barrel made for a gas gun I'd probably look at a 6 creedmoor instead. The mag length issue with the 6.5 put me off. I like to tinker with things though.
It looks like indeed PSA AR10 is not a good value. I just looked at posts of targets with PSA results. I think even with my Soviet SKS I can do better than that at 100 yards. I called my gunsmith and just the labor to replace the barrel is $120 plus the cost of a good barrel itself. Probably not even worth to consider. But to chase a rat to a dark corner and kill it there at 6 yards - it may be a perfect weapon.
What do you get for that $120? Seems awfully steep to replace an AR barrel.
I have built several AR10's for ~$1200 using Aero receiver sets, Brownell's BCGs, LaRue triggers, Magpul stocks. You just have to shop around and jump on the deals. All of them shoot sub MOA and my 6.5 Creed gets 1/2 minute off a Criterion barrel. I think they are just as easy to build as an AR15, although you do need to keep compatibility in mind. Honestly, if you stick to Aero receivers everything will be just fine.
build what you can afford and get a quality barrel, trigger and bolt. The accuracy will come from those parts if you have the ability to build it competently. Lucky for you black friday is approaching and deals should be present. Hope you have your money saved.
I like your optimism but I have a feeling that this COVID 19 Black Friday may be disappointing. My understanding now is that if I get a cheap AR10 like PSA or Aero Prcision, replace the barrel, trigger and bolt carrier group, I can get to sub MOA level for less. All that makes sense but why is BCG so important? Can I just use the cheaper BCG that comes with the cheap rifle and pilish it little bit? Is it because BCG and the barrel have to match (be made by the same manufacturer)?
strictly talking about building (build is used loosely Assemble is more accurate) but those are usually the 3 elements that factor into precision (precision is what you're after) and where i focus my money. If buying the cheaper PSA i would shoot it first and then upgrade what you need to upgrade. barrel being 1st and trigger being last.
Yes you can use the BCG from a cheaper gun and i think it will be fine... mine shoots and its not matched to the barrel.
its my opinion that great triggers are mostly to lower the handicap of a shooter. Great shooters dont really need great triggers to shoot well, average shooters can benefit from having a really good trigger. Im an average shooter so i need all the help i can get.
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With an unlimited budget, you'd go with a barrel that comes with a bolt headspaced to that particular barrel. JP offers this, as does x-caliber and a few other quality barrel providers. The headspace is preset by the barrel manufacturer, so you shouldn't have any issues with mixing a decent barrel and bolt. IMO, forget about polishing anything except for maybe the feed ramps. With an unlimited budget you could also tweak a low mass bolt with an adjustable gas block and/or the gas port location to minimize recoil and tune the gun to run like a top with or without a suppressor. With your budget that's not going to happen.
Buying a PSA and immediately replacing the barrel, trigger and bolt carrier group is like buying a volkswagen beetle and building it into a drag car. Sure, it can be done.. but why? I started with a Stag a looong time ago, replaced just about everything, including the receivers and realize if I bought <$100 in small parts I could build another rifle. I did, and gave it to my brother, exactly as it came from the factory when I bought it. That's likely the route you're heading if you go with the PSA. When you pick a bcg, just make sure it has a high pressure bolt from a reputable manufacturer and you should be fine. I mentioned Toolcraft as they make a shit ton of them and I don't think I've ever heard of a single problem. I think they're one of the biggest DOD suppliers for AR-15 BCGs. Prices are also reasonable.
Building AR platform rifles is whole lot easier than building AKs and 1911s. If you use decent parts and match them correctly you'll wind up with a far better rifle with the features you want at less cost, and without ending up with a box full of mediocre parts you don't really have any use for. It's like an erector set. No filing, fitting or machining involved. Just bolt it all together and maybe iron out a few kinks along the way. When you build it, you'll learn a thing or two in the process. It won't take more the day to get it together.
Nothing against PSA. I bought a PSAK for my father in law recently and it exceeded my expectations for the price. You wanted a precision setup though... precision isn't really PSA's game.
It's possible with a slapped together Aero Precision upper, Criterion mid-weight 20" 308 barrel, Brownell's BCG shooting basic 168 reloads shot off a bench with a bipod. Maybe I'll true the upper, shim/bed the barrel with Loctite and do some load development to see if there's an improvement. Ten rounds just a hair under MOA:
Wow... Looks impressive! I assume we are looking at 100 yards. I wander what it would look like at 1000 yards with .308. In general, is it even a good idea to use .308 or 6.5 creedmoor for 800-1000 yards? Would bigger calibers like Lapua or something else be the way to go? .50 would be tto heavy for me.
You really need a .50 if you plan to go past 750.
Thank you vinnie... for your time typing such a good and detailed advice. I thik you are absolutely right about the Volksvagen comparison. I agree that putting a nice barrel and other staff on a substandard gun does not make sense. If you did not want to pay for a Ferrari rifle but still would go for something decent , accurate and good value, what would you buy? Also, would you buy lower and upper of this brand or buy the while gun? I assume it it will be more than $2000.
Only thing that will make it out there and not loose group size to coriolis effect.
Neither really. I'd build it. With an AR platform rifle, certain components are going to make or break you in the accuracy department, and certain components matter far less. If I were in your shoes, I'd build something in 6 creedmoor. .308 ballistics aren't ideal for long range. The 6.5 is better, but you'll have a hard time using high bc bullets because you're limited by magazine dimensions. I haven't done adequate research, since I'm not in the market for a gas gun at this time, but I'd probably do something like this if I were on a budget:
1. Aero Precision blemished receivers if you can find them
2. Toolcraft 6.5 creedmoor bolt carrier group w/ high pressure bolt.
3. Luthar adjustable rifle stock or A2 style if you're pushing the budget.
4. Wilson 6mm creedmoor super sniper barrel
5. Seekins adjustable gas block
6. Rise Rave trigger
I'd cheap out on pretty much everything else. For a lot of bolt guns, you can work with a stock trigger. The mil spec AR trigger sucks, so I'd drop the $130 or so on an aftermarket trigger unless you have great trigger control. This might come in a little over your budget, but that's about as far as I'd go in terms of compromising. You'll come in well under $2k if you shop around and you'll be better off than buying a $2k off the rack gun.
The sad thing is that pretty soon people will drive their electric and hydrogen cells cars to laser gun 3 dimensional shooting ranges and all these rifles we build now will become obsolete.
Thank you. It looks like I need to read more about the 6mm caliber. I probably would want some nice name lower since I can afford to spend little more than $2000. It will be RRA trigger most likelt.
You prefer two stage triggers? If so I'd probably spring for the Geissele. Otherwise I'd skip the RRA. With $2k you can put together something nice. Just set aside a good chunk of change for your optics.
This is basically my build except I went 6.5CM, SLR gas block and a Geissele SSA-E trigger
Thank you.I don't know much about triggers but Geiselle gets good reviews. I assume the barrel should be stainless steel.
You wouldn't see a measurable difference in accuracy between a quality stainless vs carbon steel barrel, but most accurate AR barrels happen to be stainless.
That stock looks awesome for the money.
In terms of the 6.5, looking at Hodgdon's load data there's nothing there above 2.82 and even most of the heavier bullets up to 153gr use 2.80. That's still .040 margins on the mag length of 2.84. Should be wholly adequate. The G1 BCs listed on some of the bullets for 6.5 are amazing as well.
That's definitely a build that'd run. Get rifle length or +rifle length gas and a 1/7 twist barrel for heavy bullets and you'd do just fine at range.
That's a lot of bullet in the case though, no? Between the reduced case capacity and the shorter barrels typically used on gas guns velocity would be on the low side. That's why I'd go with the 6. To each his own though. No doubt it would work.
1,000yds is the top-end of 308 capability in an AR, but still works. 6.5 Creedmoor is a better choice. The 6mm CM has the downside of a shorter barrel life than the 6.5 CM.
Here is a target with the same rifle at 1K using FGMM 175gr
Wow! I hope one day I will be able to shoot close to that. From your comments it looks to me like 6.5 creedmoor is the best choice for long distance. It looks like sniping is a fairly complex area and being very inexperienced, my best option may be just to buy a factory assembled Daniel Defense for $2,500 and keep learning. I like the looks S&W M&P but I have read that is not as accurate.
My 0.2 cents are buy the best factory gun that you can afford and put time on the range to improve your fundamentals. $1K, $2k, whatever...
Dont worry so much if your gun is sub MOA. It depends on a lot of factors. You see guys in here posted really nice groups and you're thinking that's how your gun should perform. However, reality is guys in here are very experienced shooters, and most of them shoot their own handload. Point is be realistic with your expectation. Shooting a factory gun and factory ammo is not going to get you the best accuracy, but definitely enough for 1MOA.
You will probably never outshoot the accuracy of your gun, meaning your gun is more accurate then you can shoot it.
Dont worry so much if your gun is sub MOA. It depends on a lot of factors. You see guys in here posted really nice groups and you're thinking that's how your gun should perform. However, reality is guys in here are very experienced shooters, and most of them shoot their own handload. Point is be realistic with your expectation. Shooting a factory gun and factory ammo is not going to get you the best accuracy, but definitely enough for 1MOA.
You will probably never outshoot the accuracy of your gun, meaning your gun is more accurate then you can shoot it.
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Sub MOAs by M&P10s were with a super expensive ammo or with regular ammo? I like the looks of that gun but of course that says nothing about its accuracy.
Super expensive ammo? If you find a model of semi auto that shoots .308 or 6.5 cm for 1k on some pmc bronze it will probably also give you a bj and cause champagne to rain from the sky if you shoot it into the air.
To make the sub moa happen on that budget you are anteing up for not cheap ammo if not expensive components to make yet better ammo.
OK... Thanks for information... So far I was shooting mostly military surplus and was expecting good results even from that.
I think you would be hard pressed to stay at $1000. I think my homebuilt AR-15 was around $800 before optics and $1300 with. I am looking at a -10 in 6.5 but have been buying alot of reloading equipmemt. Set up a second 650 and a new bench for everyt I ing. The new -10 will be semi budget, low price for the most part. Top shelf barrel, it's going to be a budget breaker.
I'm not counting on great sales this year for Black Friday but hope to get my upper and bcg in November. Maybe an RRA lower build kit and handguard if they do 20% off and free shipping again.
I'm not counting on great sales this year for Black Friday but hope to get my upper and bcg in November. Maybe an RRA lower build kit and handguard if they do 20% off and free shipping again.
Check out the OP's thread on ar15 snipers! It's a good read . Also been a member for 7 days and already has 90 posts!
Sounds like you have good plans! I am not smart enough to do reloading or build an AR1O myself. If I can't afford Daniel Defense or something at that level, I will just buy factory assembled S&W M&P 10 and start shooting as often as I can. Colt AR 10 reviews I see are not very good. My first AR15 was a Colt HBAR and I am very satisffird with that weapon. It looks like AR10 gives you very different accuracy results with different ammo which was to be expected but I hope to minimize this difference when shooting.
Wow, just stop Daniel defense, s&w mp 10, can't afford this but I'll buy that , your full of it! Can't reload but good plans here. What the hell are you talking about 90% of your posts are nonsense. Boost that post count 7 days in 91 posts !
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