PRS Talk Suggestions for stages.... not a bitch thread!

[bschneiderheinze]

If we are simulating hunting or combat how about a NO reshoot unless theres a target malfunction!!!! No reshoot if your gear didnt work or you didnt comprehend the stage.

You guys get to reshoot if we have a malfunction we’re shit out of luck clear and go

 

[ThePretzel]

How on earth can you think that deploying the bipod on the clock, while no other gear has any restrictions, a level playing field? There's nothing level about it. Everyone else gets to step up get into position and shoot. But a bipod user is not allowed to approach the stage with their equipment ready to go? Do you realize how stupid that sounds?

No other gear is allowed to be pre-staged either. You can't place your bag on top of the barricade before the stage starts, and you can't have your rifle in position. All gear is deployed on the clock, it's just that tripods happen to take longer to deploy than other simple pieces of equipment.

And again that the tripod is more relied upon by new shooters is some narrative you are trying to push as that is not what I have seen. New shooters rarely have them.

This is the truth. Tripods are expensive, usually $1,000+ when you factor in the cost of a good ball head, and shooters don't go out and buy one immediately when they already just dropped the cash on a nice rifle and scope. They generally wait until they have shot several matches and they see the advantages that a tripod can provide.

 

[Birddog6424]

Understand, by newer shooter I dont mean the guys at their first match. I mean the guys who have been at it a year or two, maybe even longer, and are still improving. That's 70% of the field of any given match.

The large majority of them aren't spending $1000 on tripods. They are buying Leofoto and other decent less expensive options. Or they are buying aluminum off Ebay or used carbon. But make no mistake, nearly every shooter in the squad either owns a bipod or can borrow one.

And having an open tripod is no more pre-staging your equipment than having your bipod down.

It's not in position on the stage any more than the bag on top of the barricade used in your analogy. It's in the exact same position all your other gear is per the usual stage description, "all gear in hand".

 

[Mormegil87]

Why is this even a discussion?

If a guy/girl doesn't like how MD designs his CoF, they can take their money elsewhere. Arguing over it on here does nothing.

 

[ThePretzel]

And having an open tripod is no more pre-staging your equipment than having your bipod down.

It's not in position on the stage any more than the bag on top of the barricade used in your analogy. It's in the exact same position all your other gear is per the usual stage description, "all gear in hand".

The explanation given for the tripods in an undeployed position at the start of a stage was to simulate a real-world scenario.

Nobody carries their tripod around with the legs extended and locked out into position. Regardless of if you're hunting or if you're in a combat environment, you just don't do it. On the other hand, there are people who do carry their rifles with the bipod legs already set in position. It doesn't interfere with a rifle sling, and since I personally don't have a sling I find it substantially easier to pack my rifle with the legs extended on my Atlas bipod than them flush with the rifle (the legs rest on my shoulder, the butt stock in my hand).

Bipod deployment also takes less than 5 seconds to complete, while tripod deployment will take substantially longer. The MD could easily say that you have to deploy your bipod on the clock, but that doesn't fundamentally affect the match in any way because bipods are a 5 second or less deployment. They only specified tripods because only tripods make a fundamental difference in how the stage will play out, the bipod deployment literally doesn't matter at all because it's so quick.

Understand, by newer shooter I dont mean the guys at their first match. I mean the guys who have been at it a year or two, maybe even longer, and are still improving. That's 70% of the field of any given match.

By that definition you're including some of the top shooters even as "newer shooters", because not all of the top shooters have even been competing in PRS for more than a year or two and everybody in the series is still improving. It means nothing with that definition really, because it's broad enough to include shooters of all skill levels.

The large majority of them aren't spending $1000 on tripods. They are buying Leofoto and other decent less expensive options. Or they are buying aluminum off Ebay or used carbon. But make no mistake, nearly every shooter in the squad either owns a bipod or can borrow one.

A Leofoto tripod will run you $650. A good ball head will cost you $200. A good dovetail clamp will be an extra $75. Add in any extras like tripod feet or a hog saddle (if you don't have a dovetail rail on your rifle) and you're still easily over $1,000 for the tripod setup. In two years of shooting matches, including several national matches, I have only seen 4 aluminum tripods brought to PRS matches in total while having similarly seen dozens and dozens of carbon fiber tripods.

As far as borrowing tripods go, that's certainly possible but the people who borrow a tripod at the match aren't the same people who rely on tripods for their stage strategy. They remain unaffected by this rule because they're already used to practicing with no tripod. The only people affected are those who rely on a tripod to effectively engage their targets.

It should be noted I have nothing against the use of tripods, but I do agree with the assessment of many that it's a bit of a "gamer device" to add stability without having to practice. I also believe it's entirely reasonable for a match director to design stages with a reasonable scenario in mind, and no reasonable scenario includes someone carrying around a fully extended and deployed tripod instead of a collapsed and folded one. Shooters should be tested in their ability to shoot both with and without tripods, because it's a useful skill but not one that should be used as a crutch.

I'll just leave you with the following question, since you believe tripod deployment on the clock provides some shooters with an unfair disadvantage:

Do you similarly believe that stages requiring the use of a tripod (such as at matches sponsored by RRS, where one stage requires you to use their stage tripod) provides some shooters with an unfair disadvantage? It would be logically consistent for you to believe this, since not all shooters have the opportunity to practice regularly with a tripod in the same way that tripod shooters might not practice regularly at either deploying quickly or not using their tripods.

 

[Birddog6424]

Haha, 5 seconds to set down your rifle, extend and lock three legs? Not a chance.

Twist it how you want fellas. Run your matches and shoot your matches how you want.

But dont come on here and try to bullshit me that singling out a single piece of equipment, making it more difficult to use than the plethora of other ridiculous equipment available to us, is fair play. No matter how you spin it.

 

[Birddog6424]

Do you similarly believe that stages requiring the use of a tripod (such as at matches sponsored by RRS, where one stage requires you to use their stage tripod) provides some shooters with an unfair disadvantage? It would be logically consistent for you to believe this, since not all shooters have the opportunity to practice regularly with a tripod in the same way that tripod shooters might not practice regularly at either deploying quickly or not using their tripods.

Name one PRS shooter who doesnt know how to shoot off a tripod. The last match I went to where we had a sponsored tripod stage was the Quiet Riot in Utah. Pretty sure just everyone crushed that stage.

Everyone knows how to shoot off a tripod.

And your tripod estimates are way too high. For people on a budget, Leofoto, Feisol, Slik, and Manfrotto, can all bring in a decent total package for $300 to $500.

But honestly, this isnt getting anywhere. We can toss out nonsensical scenarios all day long. But bottom line, no other piece of equipment is being singled out in this manner.

 

[Lunabear]

I feel like this thread got thrown so far into the weeds from where it started that it needs renamed “bitch thread”

Now that I got my .02¢ out of the way I think a fun match idea is when you call everyone up to do your match brief/shooters meeting that’s when you inform them that whatever is currently physically attached to their gun is all they get to run. No bags no tripods none of the “extra” gear and generous targets(mostly?) would be a fun match. Now the guy that showed up with a gun and a bipod is competing the same way as the guy with the custom gun and all the extra attachments. If the guy runs a rail system or whatever then so be it. The new shooter can afford that one piece going forward and be just as leveled out as everyone else. I think it would really play into the field match/hunting/real world scenario where ppl aren’t carrying bags and bipods and packs and dope cards and blah blah blah. Would be interesting to say the least

 

[ThePretzel]

Haha, 5 seconds to set down your rifle, extend and lock three legs? Not a chance.

I said 5 seconds for a BIPOD which is very different from a TRIpod, something you seem to be confusing.

The reason they allow bipod deployment off the clock is because bipod deployment on the clock makes no difference. Harris bipods are deployed in 1 second or less. Atlas bipods are deployed in 5 seconds or less (if you're slow, 3 seconds or less otherwise). Tripod deployment has different rules at those matches because it takes a long enough time to matter - more than 5 seconds.

Name one PRS shooter who doesnt know how to shoot off a tripod. The last match I went to where we had a sponsored tripod stage was the Quiet Riot in Utah. Pretty sure just everyone crushed that stage.

Everyone knows how to shoot off a tripod.

Everyone knows the general idea of how to shoot off a tripod. Everyone also knows the general idea of how to shoot without a tripod.

Whether you can do either of those things well is a question of how much you practice shooting with and without a tripod. Shooters who practice one more than the other will be better at one than the other.

And your tripod estimates are way too high. For people on a budget, Leofoto, Feisol, Slik, and Manfrotto, can all bring in a decent total package for $300 to $500.

Leofoto tripod - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1340216-REG/leofoto_ln_404c_40mm_carbon_fiber.html
$650

Leofoto ballhead and dovetail clamp - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1375174-REG/leofoto_lh_55_low_profile_ball_head.html
$250

$900 for a Leofoto tripod setup right there, with no accessories beyond a tripod and a ballhead.

Pig saddle (cheaper steel hog saddle for guns without dovetail rails) - https://www.bisontactical.com/shop/pig-saddle/
$135

$1,035 for a Leofoto tripod setup with a pig saddle if your rifle doesn't have a dovetail rail.

But honestly, this isnt getting anywhere. We can toss out nonsensical scenarios all day long. But bottom line, no other piece of equipment is being singled out in this manner.

The only nonsensical scenarios being tossed out here are by you. You claim that people who practice with a tripod are disadvantaged when tripods are deployed on the clock, but you also claim people who practice without tripods have no disadvantage on stages where tripods are required.

Tripods aren't singled out - it's a realistic deployment scenario for all equipment. That means shooting bags must be carried, not staged. Rifles must be carried, not staged. Tripods must be carried in a configuration that some sane person would actually carry it in, not staged or with the legs already deployed.

It simply balances the field out so that people who can't afford tripods aren't left in the dust. Tripods undoubtedly can provide a more stable position than shooting bags in many scenarios. Deployment on the clock for tripods means that you can have an easily stable position, but you'll have ~10-15 seconds less of time to shoot the stage. Avoiding the tripod means that you have additional time to line up your shots, but it will be more difficult to build an equally stable position.

And yes, tripod deployment does only take 10-15 seconds. I would know, because I used a tripod in one stage at the match. I'm not somebody who practices with a tripod and it still only took me 2 seconds per leg to extend the legs (6 seconds to that point), another 2-3 seconds to spread the legs (9 seconds to that point), and a final 3-5 seconds to slap my rifle down on top of the clamp and flip the locking lever (12-14 seconds total overall). From that point forwards the actions required to complete the stage (get behind the gun and shoot) are no different than if I had not used a tripod at all.

 

[hlee]

For reals? This is probably the only shooting sport where this happens. In other sports you'll see countless people start with flags in, scope caps closed, no mags on the belt, pistols missing etc.
It's always on the shooter to make himself ready.

About 1/2 the states I shoot, I start with the scope caps closed, mag in my pocket, bipod deployed or not incorrectly, or some combination of (and not limited to) the above. I'd like to say it is on purpose, to add a bit of pressure, but I'm just forgetful. Some of the best stages I've ever shot started with some combination of shooter not ready and/or equipment malf (mags not feeding).

 

[jsimonh]

One of my new favorite stages we shoot is a modified chaos stage. Targets are shot 1 2 3 2 1 2 3 and you must hit to move on. Any remaining rounds out of the 10 you start with count as a point. So a clean run of 7 plus the 3 left in the mag would get you a 10. If you have to reshoot 2 targets then you'd end up with 8. We usually do 1min time limit.