super trickler

[Sigma]

Anyone happen to see this on their reloading product page .

Looks like the auto trickler may have some competition??

The SuperTrickler – Area 419

www.area419.com

 

[SD Carpenter]

My only concern is it costs $130 more then the autotrickler v4, and it's brand new and not proven by thousands of people and years of r n d. The only positive would be if they can keep supply up so it's in stock and not a multi-month backorder.

 

[kindabitey]

If you go to the website for the trickler, it's made in Australia. Shipping may be an issue. I've only had one personal experience dealing with
an Au. manufacturer (waterjet cutting machine) and I would put them 2nd to last on CS with every company I've dealt with personally and professionally.

 

[Holliday]

If you go to the website for the trickler, it's made in Australia. Shipping may be an issue. I've only had one personal experience dealing with
an Au. manufacturer (waterjet cutting machine) and I would put them 2nd to last on CS with every company I've dealt with personally and professionally.

Yep, I discontinued a product because the supplier was an Australian company. One time I sent them a case of scotch just to get product shipped......

 

[Sigma]

darn, I remember seeing this on fb now. I was under the impression it was from area419. I should have known from the lack of billet aluminum

 

[Kentucreed6]

I’d say if Area 419 is involved it’ll be good to go for the most part. And as far as the v4 goes it’s not proven by thousands of people yet.

 

[TXcoach]

I spoke with Area 419 and the fella I talked to over there gave it good reviews and said the user interface was better than the auto trickler they have. He also said they were going to be manufacturing it and selling it and that he thought it might be on the market early next spring.

 

[Gtar]

I've got an autotrickler and love it but have been following the development of the supertrickler and it definitely seems to be a step up. Automatic powder calibration, a built in user interface, a solution to most of the environmental issues (wind/breathing) and what looks to be a lot more advanced electronics/software. I think it will be well worth a look once it hits the market. I imagine there will be quite a few head to head comparisons with the V4 autotrickler when they are both released.

Competition drives innovation so it cant be bad for us as end users

 

[Kentucreed6]

I run the v2 AutoTrickler now. I’m going to be switching to the super trickler and run it with 2 cups. Should be a good set up. Looking forward to getting rid of the v2 auto throw

 

[Pkowald]

Hi everyone, if you have any questions regarding the SuperTrickler, please feel free to contact me. [email protected], please use the subject SUPERTRICKLER.
I can answer a few things from what I have read above.
The SuperTrickler, is made in the USA by Aera 419 it will not be made in Australia.
The SuperTrickler is a collaboration between Modgun in Denmark, Urban Assets in Australia and Area 419.
The project started in 2019 after no suitable powder dispenser was available (including the Auto Trickler) that met the needs of Modgun.
I as the software developer become involved to develop a highly accurate, fast, feature rich self contained powder dispenser, I am involved in all aspects of the design along with Modgun. Area 419 is the manufacture and distributor.
We are more expensive than the Auto Trickler, we never set out to compete with Adams machine, we setout to make a very flexible, very accurate stand alone machine with future proofing and robotic interface that is in a new class of dispensers. Our machine can easily be taken and operated on the range as it has excellent wind technology. You can do laddering, it uses extensive Artificial Intelligence, multiple cups can be used, warm up timers, data logging, custom preset loads and a database of all the powders available etc etc etc.
The SuperTrickler is not a copy of the Auto Tricker, in fact it was two months after we announced our system development (we have always been open with that) that Adam suddenly had a prototype V4.
We have always been open as we wanted feedback and ideas about what re-loaders in the market wanted. We always listen to ideas and when we can will incorporate it into our design. We have never rushed the development just to get it on the market.

There will always be Auto Trickler die hard's and defenders, I have no issue with that. I have also seen some very nasty criticism of the picture only on the Area 419 page. This picture is a PROTOTYPE as the text describes. We are the pre production stage now and hope to have the real thing on the market by very early 2022. We wanted the same things and many other re-loaders wanted that the Auto Trickler is not. The Auto Trickler will always have a place in the market and that is a good thing. The SuperTrickler is in another class at the attention to precision accuracy (not apparent accuracy like the AT) is and has always be at the fore front of out design.
The other big focus has been meeting the needs from down to earth re-loader and at the same time meeting the needs of the nerdy re-loaders who want to control in detail the profile (characteristics) of the powder and presets. You can operate very simply or can get into the nuts and bolts, its up to you. if you want 0.00 tolerance you can, if you want to operate it noisy as fast you can or you can operate it silently with very little cost in charge time. "You have control or it can do it for you" has been a strong philosophy.

Please don't assume or go on hearsay, if you have any questions please ask me.

Thanks you
Peter Kowald

 

[Cynical]

Meh, I kinda think that’s a dick response/advertisement. Adam “suddenly” came out with v4, etc. Man there’s plenty of space for two good products in the market, you don’t have to make passive-aggressive comments to try and say your product is better. We (the buyers) will figure that out when there’s actually a product to compare.

 

[orkan]

I’ll look forward to trying the super trickler. I’ll compare it directly to the V4 I have. Based on what I’ve seen of my V4… you guys have a high bar to clear. The auto calibration on it, works like magic. If you’d like me to do a detailed review on yours, I’d be happy to arrange it.


-----------

 

[Pkowald]

Cynical, I was not knocking Adam for doing what he is doing - he in fact made that comment about us, implying otherwise. I have no interesting in taking over Adams space in the market. And you are right there is plenty of space for all. There would have been no point in making the SuperTrickler if did the same thing as the Auto Trickler in the same manner.​

 

[ChipC7]

Very interested, will there be an option to work with the Sartorius Entris 64?

​

​

 

[Pkowald]

Very interested, will there be an option to work with the Sartorius Entris 64?

​

​

Sadly no - original and at the heart of the core the system was designed to operate on any set of scales/balances, however we had to make the very hard decision to only support the A&D FX/FZ120i or similar in the range. It came down to a mechanical cost blow out, and would have meant a significant increase cost for all. To overcome wind issues and the platen system (our own) meant moldings the unit around the A&D unit.

 

[Huskydriver]

Sadly no - original and at the heart of the core the system was designed to operate on any set of scales/balances, however we had to make the very hard decision to only support the A&D FX/FZ120i or similar in the range. It came down to a mechanical cost blow out, and would have meant a significant increase cost for all. To overcome wind issues and the platen system (our own) meant moldings the unit around the A&D unit.

Man I would love to beta test one

 

[TXcoach]

I have a V4 on order but must admit I can't wait to try out the Super Trickler, if it works as advertised this bad boy will be a game changer.

 

[Kentucreed6]

@Pkowald if a guy uses 2 cups and alternating how long is the drop time on average for a 35-38 grain load of powder? Just a rough average would be good. I know times can be dependent on settings but is the super trickler capable of dropping this kind of load in 10 seconds or less using the 2 cups? Thanks for any response and looking forward to seeing this thing hit the market.

 

[Raydee38]

Very interested in this one

 

[Kentucreed6]

Newest video on FB group show the super trickler dropping 39.9 grains in under 10 seconds on average from the time the cup is set until charge is ready within.02 up or down. With a 2 cups a person could stay pretty steady dumping and moving the funnel.

 

[Pkowald]

@Pkowald if a guy uses 2 cups and alternating how long is the drop time on average for a 35-38 grain load of powder? Just a rough average would be good. I know times can be dependent on settings but is the super trickler capable of dropping this kind of load in 10 seconds or less using the 2 cups? Thanks for any response and looking forward to seeing this thing hit the market.

Hi Ken

Naturally there are many dependencies, Rex just put a video up on the Facebook group, he was loading 3000 rounds; 39.90 grain of VV N133.
He was running at 100% speed and knocking them out at about a rate of 5~8 seconds, there is also an additional 2 second final settling delay.
so from start to ready in under 10 seconds, We found that running it at around 30% is dead quiet with little penalty with time around 10~12 seconds (the reason is the characteristics and dynamics of power in the tube at speed).
You can use 2 cups, its not cup sensitive.

I hope this helps

 

[Huskydriver]

Hi Ken

Naturally there are many dependencies, Rex just put a video up on the Facebook group, he was loading 3000 rounds; 39.90 grain of VV N133.
He was running at 100% speed and knocking them out at about a rate of 5~8 seconds, there is also an additional 2 second final settling delay.
so from start to ready in under 10 seconds, We found that running it at around 30% is dead quiet with little penalty with time around 10~12 seconds (the reason is the characteristics and dynamics of power in the tube at speed).
You can use 2 cups, its not cup sensitive.

I hope this helps

Lol do you need another beta tester!?

 

[bluegrasspicker]

I'm excited for the Supertrickler because it doesn't rely on a cell phone to work. I'm a grumpy old cuss who doesn't like cell phones.

That's the only thing that kept me from the V4, and I was a little worried that I'd die old and alone with an RCBS beam scale still on my bench. Now there's hope!

I've emailed Peter a couple of times with various questions. I'm happy to report he's really on top of his game in responding with solid answers. I know customer service means a lot to most of us. His actions inspire confidence.

 

[secondofangle2]

Any updates on the Ubertrickler? I have my V4 on pre-order but this has me rethinking the whole decision. The V4 is a known quantity with reliable support and I should have mine in March, so I don't want to forego that option, wait countless months during delays and beta testing and then wind up with an unproven product. First to market definitely confers advantage

ETA, the Prometheus is fast becoming a Pterodactyl - there just doesn't seem to be a point anymore. You could have several V4s and Supertricklers for one of those

 

[orkan]

You could have several V4s and Supertricklers for one of those

No way a $500 digital scale will ever produce what a prometheus can produce. Perhaps in the future? but definitely not now, and I have both sitting on my bench.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

I'm pretty sure the only question is, what will come out first? The Supertrickler or the billet accessories? J/K

 

[alamo5000]

No way a $500 digital scale will ever produce what a prometheus can produce. Perhaps in the future? but definitely not now, and I have both sitting on my bench.

I have long wanted a prometheus but I don't have any extra organs that I can sell to fund one.

 

[Kentucreed6]

Any updates on the Ubertrickler? I have my V4 on pre-order but this has me rethinking the whole decision. The V4 is a known quantity with reliable support and I should have mine in March, so I don't want to forego that option, wait countless months during delays and beta testing and then wind up with an unproven product. First to market definitely confers advantage

ETA, the Prometheus is fast becoming a Pterodactyl - there just doesn't seem to be a point anymore. You could have several V4s and Supertricklers for one of those

Craig at Area419 said on FB that it will not be in the next 3 months for sure due to shortages on parts. Better settle in for a wait, but it’s going to be worth it in my opinion.

 

[secondofangle2]

No way a $500 digital scale will ever produce what a prometheus can produce. Perhaps in the future? but definitely not now, and I have both sitting on my bench.

That could be adjudicated with a comparison with the appropriate sample size but what would be the Gold Standard anyway? No sense debating it, but my position would be that whatever difference that's there, even if statistically significant, is too small to matter

 

[orkan]

is too small to matter

It matters to me. When I fire 100rnds in the pdog town... I expect to have 100 corpses. Doubles and triples can put me up to 103-110 corpses. So that 1 or 2 misses I can get back by using the Prometheus instead of the auto trickler... matters to me.

I completely understand that it won't matter to a lot of people, and I still think the auto trickler V4 is the best thing going for people on a budget right now, and have recommended it a lot.

The gold standard, IS the Prometheus. lol

 

[Cynical]

It matters to me. When I fire 100rnds in the pdog town... I expect to have 100 corpses. Doubles and triples can put me up to 103-110 corpses. So that 1 or 2 misses I can get back by using the Prometheus instead of the auto trickler... matters to me.

I completely understand that it won't matter to a lot of people, and I still think the auto trickler V4 is the best thing going for people on a budget right now, and have recommended it a lot.

The gold standard, IS the Prometheus. lol

you say that, and have the experience to support your opinion, but this still bothers me/intrigues me about the Prometheus:

The Prometheus is typically within 0.1 grains of the desired charge weight the scale is set to. This means if you adjust the scale to 40.0 grains, it will typically produce a charge within 0.1 grains of the setting.

That’s not really that spectacular. The Autotrickler is well within that margin of error even with the amount of drift some report as the scale warms from an off state. So where’s the magic sauce for the Prometheus that causes you to have that strong opinion (and again, I’m not questioning your opinion or experience as much as I’m hoping you’ll share what makes it clearly better from your experience).

 

[orkan]

you say that, and have the experience to support your opinion, but this still bothers me/intrigues me about the Prometheus:



That’s not really that spectacular. The Autotrickler is well within that margin of error even with the amount of drift some report as the scale warms from an off state. So where’s the magic sauce for the Prometheus that causes you to have that strong opinion (and again, I’m not questioning your opinion or experience as much as I’m hoping you’ll share what makes it clearly better from your experience).

You very much do not understand that statement.

What it means is that the scale setting, can be off by .1, just like every other balance beam, (but it usually is within a kernel or two) but it will still be ULTRA precise. So it's the difference between precision and accuracy. If you're loading all your ammo on the prometheus, then the node you work will be at that setting on the scale... and it will be repeatable. However, if you want to ensure it is dead on, you'll need to get to know the individual scale in that particular prometheus. Each click on the prometheus secondary poise is about 1 kernel of powder. Sometimes less. So you can dial it in wherever you want it.

It's not a big thing, at all. ... but it didn't stop me from grilling Brand for an hour about this very thing before I bought mine. So you're not illogical for having the question. Now you know it's not a problem at all.

 

[secondofangle2]

Well all right then, Greg, I'll tell you what, the next time you're a fix'n to go PDoggin' give us advance notice on here and when the day comes turn on that live stream gizmo and I bet I'm not the only one who would like to tune in and watch live and see just how that Prometheus enables a 103% hit rate on them PDogs. Heck I may be inspired to buy one myself after seeing such a feat!

 

[orkan]

Well all right then, Greg, I'll tell you what, the next time you're a fix'n to go PDoggin' give us advance notice on here and when the day comes turn on that live stream gizmo and I bet I'm not the only one who would like to tune in and watch live and see just how that Prometheus enables a 103% hit rate on them PDogs. Heck I may be inspired to buy one myself after seeing such a feat!

Easy... I just don't shoot at any past 300yds.

Seriously though, a Prometheus is just one of those things you need, or you don't.

You don't... that's fine. If mine got crushed by a rogue comet today... I'd call Brand before evening to get another one.

 

[Cynical]

I guess I’m still not tracking. If I have an acclimated fx120, and calibrate it with a 100 grain weight, and set it at 40.0 grains, then I’ll use any measured charge from 39.98 to 40.02. If accuracy in that context is 40.0, I’ve done well. If precision is doing it again and again, I can control any “misses” by not using anything outside my acceptable margin of error (which is the scale’s accuracy of .02 grains).

If Varget and H4350 both usually come in about .02 for a kernel, in the circumstance admittedly limited to those two powders I just don’t understand how the Prometheus can be so much better. But, I busted some guys balls earlier about shitting on Autotrickler in this thread, so I don’t want to derail too much in this Supertrickler thread. We could pm and go to email if you’re still offering to educate me.

 

[secondofangle2]

#cultofPrometheus

 

[spife7980]

I guess I’m still not tracking.

Absolute (matches exactly with the international bureau of weights and standards in France for pure scientific accuracy) vs Relative (accurate to this one machine only)

 

[ThePretzel]

The Prometheus is accurate +/- 1 kernel of Varget in weight, or about +/- 0.05gr of powder.

The thing is, that kind of accuracy isn't required to accomplish the above stated goal (not missing a prairie dog) and it's not even required to achieve more difficult tasks like winning F-class and benchrest national titles. Many a Prometheus user has been defeated by those with ATV3's or even just a Harrel's powder throw alone at the 100, 200, 300, 600, and 1000 yard lines for benchrest and F-class alike (though there are a lot more Prometheus users in BR than F-class).

The repeatability of the Prometheus is a nice peace of mind to have, knowing the powder charge will be more or less identical in weight each time, but the thing is that +/- 0.05gr accuracy doesn't provide any measurable benefit downrange compared to the +/- 0.1gr accuracy offered by the ATV3/ATV4/SuperTrickler or similar systems. Whether it makes a difference or not is entirely up to the shooter - if the placebo effect helps you relax and shoot better than a Prometheus might appear to work better but there isn't empirical evidence to suggest that it will guarantee better outcomes.

I say all of this as somebody who owns and uses a Prometheus myself, I'm not some biased owner of another system simply trying to defend what I use. I've managed to produce ammo in the past with a repeatable ES less than 10 over 7-shot groups using a hand-trickler and a Hornady pocket scale. I've also loaded ammo with the Prometheus that had repeatable ES's greater than 25 using 7-shot groups. One disadvantage to the Prometheus is that it's very sensitive to being perfectly level - I had an issue for a while where my velocities seemed exceptionally high for the powder charges I was throwing and the problem was resolved as soon as I went through the re-leveling procedure (I had left it hardmounted to a bench in a carpeted room for 2 years without moving it, the carpet underneath the bench's feet had settled slightly in that time).

Yes, the Prometheus may be more precisely repeatable than the digital systems that are currently widely available - no, that doesn't make any consistently measurable difference downrange. It's nice for peace of mind and simplicity of use/setup (just work the powder throw with the case under the funnel, no other steps required), but doesn't provide any quantifiable performance advantage.

 

[akmike47]

Looks like a Keurig. Not saying that to be a dick, it just looks like a coffee machine.

Still way better than my RCBS lite

 

[orkan]

no, that doesn't make any consistently measurable difference downrange.

Guess it depends on how small you're shooting.

Folks forget that F-class and benchresters get sighters. So if the rounds are falling a bit different, they can easily adjust.

Field shooters like me, I don't get sighters. That's where the Prometheus shows its worth. I don't chase my zero.

 

[secondofangle2]

The Prometheus is accurate +/- 1 kernel of Varget in weight, or about +/- 0.05gr of powder.

The thing is, that kind of accuracy isn't required to accomplish the above stated goal (not missing a prairie dog) and it's not even required to achieve more difficult tasks like winning F-class and benchrest national titles. Many a Prometheus user has been defeated by those with ATV3's or even just a Harrel's powder throw alone at the 100, 200, 300, 600, and 1000 yard lines for benchrest and F-class alike (though there are a lot more Prometheus users in BR than F-class).

The repeatability of the Prometheus is a nice peace of mind to have, knowing the powder charge will be more or less identical in weight each time, but the thing is that +/- 0.05gr accuracy doesn't provide any measurable benefit downrange compared to the +/- 0.1gr accuracy offered by the ATV3/ATV4/SuperTrickler or similar systems. Whether it makes a difference or not is entirely up to the shooter - if the placebo effect helps you relax and shoot better than a Prometheus might appear to work better but there isn't empirical evidence to suggest that it will guarantee better outcomes.

I say all of this as somebody who owns and uses a Prometheus myself, I'm not some biased owner of another system simply trying to defend what I use. I've managed to produce ammo in the past with a repeatable ES less than 10 over 7-shot groups using a hand-trickler and a Hornady pocket scale. I've also loaded ammo with the Prometheus that had repeatable ES's greater than 25 using 7-shot groups. One disadvantage to the Prometheus is that it's very sensitive to being perfectly level - I had an issue for a while where my velocities seemed exceptionally high for the powder charges I was throwing and the problem was resolved as soon as I went through the re-leveling procedure (I had left it hardmounted to a bench in a carpeted room for 2 years without moving it, the carpet underneath the bench's feet had settled slightly in that time).

Yes, the Prometheus may be more precisely repeatable than the digital systems that are currently widely available - no, that doesn't make any consistently measurable difference downrange. It's nice for peace of mind and simplicity of use/setup (just work the powder throw with the case under the funnel, no other steps required), but doesn't provide any quantifiable performance advantage.

^^^This.

I too like having luxury items just cuz they give me the jollies. I just bought a $1200 Turban Prazipress 150 (and a 105 on the way too) and it has done basically ZERO for my runout compared to the run-of-the-mill RCBS press I was using and that doesn't bother me one bit. To me it is a piece of art that I admire, as well as a tool I use. My WTC 50 BMG dies I THINK make a difference (or there's more reason to believe they do), but again I don't care. As another poster once said, the WTC dies are "the finest piece of steel you will ever own." That's valuable to me.

If I got a prometheus (I was turned off early on because of the lease thing) I would do it out of admiration of the beauty and engineering, not because of an expectation that the accuracy it provides will make a difference down range.

Same thing with my AMP annealer.....better result than my Giraud? Sure. Difference down range? Unsure. Cool factor? Off the charts.

ETA, BTW Orkan, got my SRS rail today, pretty sweet, thanks!

 

[akmike47]

^^^This.

I too like having luxury items just cuz they give me the jollies. I just bought a $1200 Turban Prazipress 150 (and a 105 on the way too) and it has done basically ZERO for my runout compared to the run-of-the-mill RCBS press I was using and that doesn't bother me one bit. To me it is a piece of art that I admire, as well as a tool I use.

If I got a prometheus (I was turned off early on because of the lease thing) I would do it out of admiration of the beauty and engineering, not because of an expectation that the accuracy it provides will make a difference down range.

Same thing with my AMP annealer.....better result than my Giraud? Sure. Difference down range? Unsure. Cool factor? Off the charts.

ETA, BTW Orkan, got my SRS rail today, pretty sweet, thanks!

Not a thing in the world wrong with buying something because you like it. It's weird people get all up in arms about someone spending their money how they want.

I'm over here borrowing an Annealeez lol

 

[secondofangle2]

Not a thing in the world wrong with buying something because you like it. It's weird people get all up in arms about someone spending their money how they want.

I'm over here borrowing an Annealeez lol

I'd need some Anal-Eez before I bent over and forked out the cash for the Prometheus LOL

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I'm excited for the Supertrickler because it doesn't rely on a cell phone to work. I'm a grumpy old cuss who doesn't like cell phones.

That's the only thing that kept me from the V4, and I was a little worried that I'd die old and alone with an RCBS beam scale still on my bench. Now there's hope!

I've emailed Peter a couple of times with various questions. I'm happy to report he's really on top of his game in responding with solid answers. I know customer service means a lot to most of us. His actions inspire confidence.

Yeah he responded to me a good while back after I stumbled on to the machine. Have to like that he responds like that and not just some canned response either, he actually answered questions in detail. Pretty cool.

 

[akmike47]

I'd need some Anal-Eez before I bent over and forked out the cash for the Prometheus LOL

I keep telling my buddy I'm going to return his annealeez with some missing letters eventually

 

[ThePretzel]

Guess it depends on how small you're shooting.

Folks forget that F-class and benchresters get sighters. So if the rounds are falling a bit different, they can easily adjust.

Field shooters like me, I don't get sighters. That's where the Prometheus shows its worth. I don't chase my zero.

It doesn't depend how small you're shooting, it literally doesn't matter when the same repeatable small SD/ES numbers can be achieved on a number of other powder measuring platforms. The exact precision of your powder charge's weight is meaningless compared to the consistency of the end result - velocity when the round is fired.

Field shooters don't require more precision than F-class or benchrest shooters, and to pretend that's the case is honestly hurting your argument here more than helping it. Shooting prairie dogs in the field without missing means consistently hitting a 5"x12" target, the size of the average prairie dog. If your gun is half decent (even just 0.5 MOA groupings) and you can load to an ES of 20 or less you will have no issues doing that out to 500 yards if you correctly read the wind conditions. At 500 yards a 25fps velocity difference (24940fps vs 2965fps, using 105 Hybrids as an example) is not even enough to create 1 tenth of a mil of difference in your elevation, much less any difference to your windage, at 0ft DA. To require 2.2 MRAD of elevation instead of 2.1 MRAD of elevation you have to drop the velocity all the way from 2965fps to 2920fps, a 45fps drop - all to accomplish an elevation difference of only 1.8" at 500 yards (0.1 MRAD = 0.36" at 100 yards --> 1.8" at 500 yards). You're still not missing a prairie dog at 500 yards even with a 50fps ES, unless either your load sucks (in group size, not just SD/ES) or you suck as a shooter at reading wind/shooting fundamentals.

Meanwhile those F-class and benchrest guys? They're shooting groups smaller than prairie dog heads at 600 and even now 1,000 yards (new record of 2.6566" at 1,000 yards was set just this June). They also aren't chasing their zero - they're measuring the effects atmospheric changes have on whatever load they're using because even with a Prometheus your 600/1,000 yard zero is different from day to day based on current conditions.

The only zero shift anybody with a decent load (single digit SD and ES) is seeing between shooting sessions is caused by either crappy equipment or atmospheric changes. Atmospheric differences can and will shift everybody's zero, particularly depending on the type of powder you use and how temperature sensitive it may be, even if you measured your powder charge accurate to 0.00001gr. At 1,000 yards even using my Prometheus my "zero" will shift by half a mil at 1,000 yards just from the morning to the afternoon of the same day if it starts out chilly/dry and ends up a hot/humid afternoon.

 

[Cynical]

The quote I posted earlier about ”.1 grain“ accuracy was from Prometheus. Thats not an Autotrickler standard. I don’t even think it’s really apples to apples with Autotrickler/fx120 because of the digital scale.

However, in every context, “+/-.02” is more precise than +/-.1. If the digital scale is calibrated with an ASTM Class 4 or better weight and doesn’t drift and has the right room environment, it’s clearly more precise than a mechanical beam scale. The point I can’t get comfortable with about the Prometheus being superior, is that the mechanical scale is less precise than an appropriately calibrated and located digital scale. If I don’t like a .04 overcharge I toss it back in the hopper on an Autotrickler. I would never know that with the Prometheus because it’s within a kernel or within the precision of the mechanical scale (as advertised by Prometheus).

I do acknowledge this isn’t true/the same issue with ball or flake powders, just extruded with higher kernel weights. I seriously considered buying a Prometheus recently but couldn’t get my mind convinced it was even a theoretical upgrade for what I’m doing with extruded powder. I would have one ASAP if it even remotely seemed to be better than running two Autotricklers.

what I really want is for someone, I don’t care who, to bring to market the auto-fill setup where I put a 100 cases in a block and some machine fills them for me while I’m doing something else. This is the worst part of reloading for me.

 

[secondofangle2]

There is a [big] difference between intellectual prowess and intellectual honesty and that's why we are at an impasse and it is not going to be settled here, anywhere else, now, or ever

I do still want to watch a live stream of 100% hit rate on 100 prairie dogs. That would be quite a feat.

 

[orkan]

They're shooting groups smaller than prairie dog heads at 600

Shooting groups smaller than prairie dog heads at 600yds with sighters on a square range with wind flags is all together not the same as what I'm doing.

Not even remotely the same.

 

[ThePretzel]

Shooting groups smaller than prairie dog heads at 600yds with sighters on a square range with wind flags is all together not the same as what I'm doing.

Not even remotely the same.

Correct, as I proved with basic ballistic calculations what you are trying to do is substantially easier than F-class and benchrest, particularly when it comes to the requirements for ES/SD. The full-value windage difference at 500 yards with that 50fps ES I discussed to go along with the 1.8" vertical spread? 0.0 MRAD, too small for a calculator (or shooter) to bother differentiating.

Look, I own and use a Prometheus and I like it. The peace of mind for the single kernel accuracy is nice to have, and the ghostly green glow is pretty to look at. That said, pretending it gives quantifiably better results is simply not truthful or accurate.

Sighters have nothing to do with the SD/ES of your loaded ammo. They are used to confirm wind reading from the flags. A Prometheus, even if it did give better SD/ES guaranteed (it doesn't, it can help but other methods can achieve equivalent SD/ES results without a Prometheus) would not make sighters any more or less valuable because that's not what sighters are used for.