Suppressors Suppressor Purchase (FL Specific)

[dx_caliber]

Good afternoon fellas,

Thanks to a group buy I'll be picking up a suppressor. Since it is indeed my first NFA purchase, I have a question or two. I just got off the phone with my dealer and it seems that he's rather partial (for fear of a trust getting kicked back and starting the process over) to getting it transferred directly into my name. I, on the other hand, would prefer to set up a basic living revocable trust via software such as Quicken Will-maker or Intuit to have the suppressor transferred to & avoid all the hoops of the alternate route. My question (to FL guys preferably) is, which method did you use or which would you recommend? I have searched this topic extensively (or perhaps my google-fu is weak) but I cannot seem to get any FL specific information other than fear-mongering from Guntrustlawyer.com!

In the mean time, I plan to get in contact with my local CLEO's agency and inquire whether or not they would sign off on the paperwork.

Any information/advice is greatly appreciated!

 

[cflgunandtactical]

Re: Suppressor Purchase (FL Specific)

We have had several people use the quicken trust and none of them have been refused by the ATF

 

[Icallem]

Re: Suppressor Purchase (FL Specific)

Good morning,
Glad to see this question, as my dealer called yesterday afternoon and told me my suppressors are in and that I need to come up and start the paperwork.
My wife and I already have a revocable trust in place, but I’m not sure how it works from here. I have searched for info about putting the suppressors in a trust name, but it seems like people start a trust just for this item. Is that right? Can the trust we have work for this?
Hope this is not considered hijacking the thread, but it seems we are looking for the same info.
Thanks for any info.

 

[Eurodriver]

Re: Suppressor Purchase (FL Specific)

I used Davis Basta Law Firm in Palm Harbor, FL because he was close and I'd heard nothing but good reviews. He has doubled his price, but I would gladly pay it. It is a one time purchase and the peace of mind it provides is great.

I personally do not want to mess with something like a quicken will maker type program because I have absolutely no idea what a trust IS, let alone how to make one.

I feel much more confident knowing I have a lawyer that they can contact with any questions as opposed to me.

As far as trust vs. individual route, my local CLEO will not sign BATF forms so a trust is the only way to go.

 

[normbal]

Re: Suppressor Purchase (FL Specific)

guntrustlawyer.com might be a good place to start. I 'JUST" sent a response to a friend about this question, take what you can from this:

I would start HERE: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=7074

Post #10 outlines the trust.

Post #14 links to a sample trust.

Post #110 (and many others) are from a local attorney, who has some good things to say.

Several people are using the sample trust with good results.

I found several other samples and threads online that mentioned "language specific to NFA regulations" and edited the sample trust to get my own (PM me, I'll send you copies):

Which I edited and submitted 4 months ago for two suppressors. Look for the NFA-specific language referencing 1932 NFA.

Still waiting. I called ATF's NFA branch about a month ago (ph: 304.616.4500) with the SN of one of the cans I'm waiting for and was told the paperwork went "pending" July 28, 2011.

Last I heard my examiner, Dana Pickles, is working on paperwork from July, so it could be days, or months yet. No telling. If you've done NFA transfers you know the drill. Wait times of 4 to 6 months are "normal".

I got the idea from the FFL dealer I use to handle NFA transfers. The last time I did a transfer, since Maryland has "consolidated" (i.e. - made it MUCH more difficult to get done) the paperwork process into only ONE of their state police offices, it requires I take, literally, an entire day to get photographs, fingerprints, paperwork submitted for their approval ("not disapproved") which takes another month to get returned.

A trust requires none of those things. You basically complete the trust form, amend it if necessary with NEW items added to the trust and submit it anew.

Local attorney I spoke with wanted $500 for a cookie cutter format trust she says has worked. I'm a doctor. I charge usual and customary fees, I don't believe in raping patients and telling them I'm doing them a favor.

My dealer suggested I start with guntrustlawyer.com

I also spent (spend) a lot of time on:

http://www.snipershide.com forums (there're a couple of threads dealing with this issue),

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2623250

and

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1308858

also on

AR15.com

silencertalk.com

and I used to hang out on subguns.com until it became a more or less private/favorites forum for about ten guys.

I have heard of people spending as little as $150 with out of state attorneys which is reasonable to me. This being Maryland, this close to DC, reasonable is a fungible term of the lawyer's art, "usual and customary fee" is how lawyer "price gouging" was explained to me once.

"Funding the trust." This is really vague and there are about as many definitions and recommendations as there are lawyers.

Two basic methods: open a bank account with the trust's name, OR, since you are in a sense funding the trust with property, which is in essence "value," that in itself "funds the trust." It's like saying you use money to buy gold, but is gold - bullion - money? Or an object of varying value which you buy WITH money? But if you put physical gold in your estate planning, it adds value (i.e. - money) to your estate.

So I chose the latter. I put the cans in the trust as funding.

As far as paying for NFA items goes, since you are the principle actor for the trust, you are in a sense, the trust itself, you can buy anything you want and put it IN the trust. Just keep detailed notes for tax
purposes if/when it comes to that.

Keep in mind if you have NFA items you already own that are registered on an ATF form 4, you (the trust) will have to pay another $200 transfer tax to get the item registered TO the trust.

In this instance you and the trust are NOT one in the same, but the trust is considered under the law to be a person. It's how corporations are, by tradition, by law, and by recent US Supreme Court ruling, "people." Of course they are. No different from a union. But that's a little off the track here. The trust is, effectively, an individual.

I'm not a lawyer, but I can twist a tale or two, spin a political position with the best of 'em.

Hope this helps.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: Suppressor Purchase (FL Specific)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dx_caliber</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good afternoon fellas,

Thanks to a group buy I'll be picking up a suppressor. Since it is indeed my first NFA purchase, I have a question or two. I just got off the phone with my dealer and it seems that he's rather partial (for fear of a trust getting kicked back and starting the process over) to getting it transferred directly into my name. I, on the other hand, would prefer to set up a basic living revocable trust via software such as Quicken Will-maker or Intuit to have the suppressor transferred to & avoid all the hoops of the alternate route. My question (to FL guys preferably) is, which method did you use or which would you recommend? I have searched this topic extensively (or perhaps my google-fu is weak) but I cannot seem to get any FL specific information other than fear-mongering from Guntrustlawyer.com!

In the mean time, I plan to get in contact with my local CLEO's agency and inquire whether or not they would sign off on the paperwork.

Any information/advice is greatly appreciated! </div></div>

Not a Florida guy, but in WI people use Quicken Willmaker and add the suppressor to the property sheets, head to the bank and get it notarized and witness signed and those are real trusts in WI and the transfers get approved.

Some people prefer lawyers, but most in WI prefer Quicken.

 

[dx_caliber]

Re: Suppressor Purchase (FL Specific)

@norm - Wow, thanks for the wall of information! I'm well aware of the funding of the trust issue.

Through my research I have found the reasons most do-it-yourself trusts get revoked is because people make the trust prior to getting a can and do not fund it with anything. People establish a trust before the can is registered to them. If you establish a trust and fund it with a can that is not yet yours, the trust is invalid because you established it with property that wasn't yours; if amended later with a can you can get in all sorts of trouble since it's registered to an invalid trust. You can fund it with anything from property to one U.S. Dollar....as long as something (that belongs to you) is listed. Another way people seem to screw it up is when creating it they name themselves the Grantor, Trustee, & Beneficiary which also invalidates the trust since the prime purpose of a trust is to determine what happens to your property upon your passing. So, as long as these mistakes are avoided, I'm fairly certain I should be good to go. I'll just create the trust and list either one of my cheaper pistols or list One U.S. Dollar as the property in the initial trust.

To recap:
A. Fund the trust with something already owned by you. Don't fund it with the can you are establishing the trust for.
B. You can be listed as Grantor & Trustee but others need to be listed as Successor & Beneficiary.

If I follow those guidelines I (hopefully) should be GTG.

@Griffin - I forgot to mention my father practiced law for over 20 years and has been a judge for ~10. So, I think I'll go the quicken route, while avoiding the mistakes above, and then have him glance over it to make sure it's a legally binding trust & that I'm not doing something stupid. Thanks for the reassurance!

@Icallem - If it were me I would create a separate trust solely for NFA items. I wouldn't want any of my other assets linked to my NFA items if something were to go wrong.