Suppressors Suppressor Questions

D

Drew_1312

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 15, 2009
141
0
Rochester, Indiana
#1
Ok, I don't want to start this out by asking "what's the best suppressor"...but that's the direction I'm heading.

I've got an 11.5" AR that's my patrol/entry rifle. I've been really considering getting a suppressor but I have some questions first. I'm not going to go out and shoot the shit out of it, but it will get used and I want something that will last. I know I could call one of the manufacturers but I want some honest and unbiased opinions and answers. I'm leaning toward Gem-Tech or AAC, but only because that's what the Class 3 Dealer keeps in stock.

First I would like some opinions on direct thread or quick detach. I'm not so concerned about being able to take it on or off, because I plan to leave it on for the most part. What I do want to know about is which one is best suited for an 11.5" barrel. From what I've read, the baffles will take quite a beating from the unburnt gun powder when using a direct thread can. Is this true or just a myth. Also, I've been looking at maybe a Gem-Tech Trek for the size...it's direct thread but the website states that it's for barrels 10.4" or longer. Also looking at the AAC Ranger for it's size but it's direct thread as well. Is something like a quick detach with a muzzle break attachment (as opposed to flash suppressor attachment) better suited for the SBR. (And I know...quick detach is more like quick attach than anything)

This leads me to my next concern...is small neccesarily better. Does smaller = louder? I guess I'm looking for something compact that doesn't add 6 or 7 inches to the length (which would defeat the purpose of having the SBR), well built, with good sound suppression. From what I've read, the AAC M4-2000 would be the way to go...but I didn't really want to drop $1000 on a can. Was looking at more along the $500-$700 range.

And finally, is it a waste to put a can on a shorty. Is a suppressed SBR still loud? I know it's not going to be "Hollywood Quiet", but what should I reasonably expect for a suppressed shorty. I don't want to spend the money on a can and tax stamp, then still have to wear hearing protection.

Any and all input and/or guidance is appreciated.

Thanks and take care...ANDY
 
#4
Re: Suppressor Questions

I have a G5 that I use quite regularly on my 10.5" LMT and while it isn't whisper quiet in that configuration, I do not have a ringing in my ears after shooting w/o earpro. Remember that there is a lot of blast coming out of 10-11" barrel and the can is having to deal with a lot more than a 14-16" barrel due to powder burn rate. There is a definite difference in sound going to a longer barrel.

As to length, the G5 series adds 5.5" onto the end of the gun.

I went with the QD style because it doesn't shoot loose like a thread-on can (think how hot a can gets after a mag, then think about having to reach up and crank on it to make sure it is tight). You do not want the can to get loose, when I worked for a gun shop, we had a client whose can got loose on his 10.5" full-auto and he blew the end right off of it because he wasn't paying attention to it.

Also, QD style allows you to not have to worry about attaching a flashhider every time you don't use your can.

Having shot the AAC, its a good can as well, but the flashhider offerings (I really like the Vortex) and the qd lugs on the Gemtech sold me.

Hope this helps,
Reed
 
#5
Re: Suppressor Questions

when running a can on an ar like you are wanting to do, a couple of us have done a lot of experimentation in this dept and I have a couple of suggestions, we used a 30 cal can on an ar and believe it or not, it was almost as quiet as a dedicated .224 and may have even been as quiet but here is the kicker, on the short barrel the larger volume of the can distributes the hot unburnt powder due to the shorter length of the barrel, the larger 30 cal cans are heavier but they are also built to handle more volume, therefore they do not create as much backpressure and that means they do not foul your action and barrel nearly as fast, and they seem to dissipate the heat better than the .224 cans plus you have the option to go to a larger caliber later if so desired and not half to worry about another can and tax stamp, I would highly recommend the aac 7.62sd personally, they have held up exceptionally well for me.
 
#8
Re: Suppressor Questions

On an AR (or any semi-auto platform) you should only use a QD can. The bolt/bolt carrier acts like an impact wrench on regular "thread-on" can and will make it work loose eventually. When that happens you can get a baffle strike.

Smaller will almost always = louder.

It's not a waste of time to put a can on a "shorty". Yes, it will be louder than a suppressor on a 16" or 18", but SBRs are brutally loud without the can (it's all relative).

Bryon
 
#9
Re: Suppressor Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Smaller will almost always = louder.
</div></div>

My 5.56mm Daewoo AR-100 was fitted with a DC Vortex from SEI yesterday.
This piston driven AR will host a relatively large .30 caliber M14DC SEI/Fisher can.
IMG_4325.jpg
 
#10
Re: Suppressor Questions

..

<span style="font-weight: bold">"On an AR (or any semi-auto platform) you should only use a QD can. The bolt/bolt carrier acts like an impact wrench on regular "thread-on" can and will make it work loose eventually. When that happens you can get a baffle strike."</span>

Ah...no..

<span style="font-weight: bold">Heavy use </span>full auto cans, thread on cans, that have been used by our military for fifty years have all been successful with the addition of the supplied flat washer. That washer has nothing to do with "impact" (that is accomplished with proper shoulder interface). Light FA and all semi? Nothing needed more than a proper threading and tightening. Current .223 deliveries to the services include thread ons. QD has its place, much less so on an 11" barrel as QD, on a sbr,<span style="font-weight: bold"> makes the least sense of all </span>as it increases over all length, uses the precious internal capacity of any well designed can, increases dwell right at the spot you want unburnt particulate to move efficiently into/thru the can, retains heat where you want things to cool fast, adds weight (always ask for the weight of the QD and <span style="font-weight: bold">add</span> it to the weight of the can, you will be shocked), increases carbonization, requires a proprietary interface, adds expense, increases back pressure, can't be removed anyway when hot, and when you take your can off a sbr you are left a brake that is anything other than, say, a Noveske KX, etc.etc. Some of us remember heavy <span style="font-weight: bold">open bolt </span>suppressed FAs slamming with forces simply unobtained with todays closed bolt systems, endless rounds through properly mounted thread ons...many of those where 4" barrels. I'm ok with all the sales hype but to suggest that thread on creates some counter intuitive reverse physics condition is, well, ridiculous.

When you have a sbr and it is below 14" and it will see high heat cycles, the issue becomes less about internal capacity as that goes hot almost immediately. Even mounting a XL overbored can on an sbr like a thirty, with real use, is a loosing proposition. Suppression at 11" relies on the manner bywhich two things happen well, slowing the gas jets through active, directional gas redirection (redirection other than simple cone face disruption as flow must be maintained.) The second is heat dissipation and its efficiency/impact on structural strength. Depending on the host, we add back pressure issues created by many designs that can be brutally magnified on some sbr gas systems.

Many cans made for the .223 were designed to never actually seen heavy heat cycles, some were deigned expressly for that. This is especially true for sbrs. At 11"? You will need an outstanding can if you want to approach anything close to superb suppression after fewer rounds than one might think. Absolutely no time for hype or "good enough" products.

 
#12
Re: Suppressor Questions

What about baffle erosion? Will the baffles of a thread-on can get eaten up by the SBR?

Also, won't the constant heating and extreme temps effect the threads of the barrel. I know I won't be taking the can off very much, but I do have a couple of .223's that I would like to use it on. It will remain on my entry weapon, but I've got a 16" and an SPR that I would use it on as well.

ANDY
 
#13
Re: Suppressor Questions

Drew,

With the kind of use you are going to be using, you just need to buy a great quality can for a .223 with a barrel that short. Don't be overly concerned about baffle erosion, thread heat, cleaning, QD/thread on, etc. Its all just jibberish. I watched this thread from afar as a majority of the advise you got was great. Just the "must use QD" piece...that, IMO, required intervention.

You issue is pretty straight forward, your suppressing the worst of all platforms, a sbr in .223. You have a choice:

Buying a can that will do the best on an 11" .223 vs buying a can that will do well with all things "normal." When people get very serious about suppressing .223 in 11" they choose from a limited spectrum of available cans, if they are going to shoot FA in that configuration, an even smaller number. Also, remember, "Ear Safe" is the exact same dBs as a jackhammer going off 8" from your ears. "Ear Safe" is dangerously misleading. When somebody says to me they are shooting an sbr in .223 without earpro and they are not getting any tinitus...well, many are very interested in determining whether or not they have a superb can...or are already partially deaf. A majority of the time? Hearing loss.

Do yourself a favor...answer that question first. at 11" you don't have to worry about weight, about long range accuracy, etc. You need the can to be constructed out of excellent materials and robustly fabricated. If your primary is the 11" .223 and you are going to need real suppression, well your can is not going to look like a precision bolt action can. It will need to be a tank.

If it was me? I would be expecting to spend closer to the grand and listening to more cans than just Gemtech and AAC as, IMO for what you are looking to do, only one of those two would be on my short list.

As to your question of "should you do it?" Especially for your host...do it. Your asking all the right questions, search here as this question has come up. Good luck.
 
#17
Re: Suppressor Questions

Those are definitely interesting but I've never heard of them...not that it means anything. Does anyone know anything about them. Can't tell but they look like they're thread cans...is that right?

Thanks for the info on that.
 
#18
Re: Suppressor Questions

I wonder how well they would work on my SBR?

They're compact and relatively inexpensive...seems too good to be true! And in my experience, if it seems too good to be true then it probably is! Just saying.

Still interested though.
 
#19
Re: Suppressor Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Drew_1312</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those are definitely interesting but I've never heard of them...not that it means anything. Does anyone know anything about them. Can't tell but they look like they're thread cans...is that right?

Thanks for the info on that. </div></div>
they are indeed thread on suppressors. i have 7 on order as we speak. i have heard them in person and talked to the owner/designer at great lengths. they are a symmetrical design hence causing minimal POI shift...which matters not on an SBR...they offer greater volume in a compact package because of the greater diameter. like i said, surprisingly quiet. they are also constructed in such a way as to stand up to any torture a Full Auto or semi auto SBR will dish out. the MINI Brevis was tested to failure on an 8" Shrike. then it was redesigned/improved to correct the failure.
 
#21
Re: Suppressor Questions

But what about a thread-on can coming loose? Can't really reach up there and tighten it if you can fry an egg on it. Just another question to add to my insanity!

So many damn conflicting theories that I'm beginning to drive myself nuts over this!
 
#22
Re: Suppressor Questions

In our testing, the 223A almost never comes loose. However, we have a device that in our testing has absolutely prevented the 223A from coming loose. Details to customers, etc.

"QD" or no, you're not getting a can you just dumped four mags through off fast unless you have a set of welding gloves handy.
 
#27
Re: Suppressor Questions

It's not quite as quiet as the 223P-1 because we made it a little bit smaller for the Sabre 7" application. You probably can't tell the difference at the ear with the AR's action sound, though.

BTW - we don't publicly post dB numbers because some manufacturers have "ruined it for everyone" by publishing numbers that nobody else can duplicate (ie using mil-std equipment and procedures).
 
#28
Re: Suppressor Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Drew_1312</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But what about a thread-on can coming loose? Can't really reach up there and tighten it if you can fry an egg on it. Just another question to add to my insanity!

So many damn conflicting theories that I'm beginning to drive myself nuts over this! </div></div>
the Brevis has wrench flats in it for tightening. problem solved.
 
#29
Re: Suppressor Questions

<span style="font-weight: bold">"BTW - we don't publicly post dB numbers because some manufacturers have "ruined it for everyone" by publishing numbers that nobody else can duplicate (ie using mil-std equipment and procedures)."</span>

Absolutely correct move to make. Without frequency and duration, dB is useless anyway. Add to that "at what barrel length?" in this very case and, well, well done Zak!
 
#30
Re: Suppressor Questions

not to mention, ammo , temp, baro pressure, altitude the list goes on. same tube on a cold day vs a hot day same place same distance etc, way different numbers, even with same gun and same ammo. posted db's are a sales gimmick. imho. great for development and comparison RIGHT now, but useless otherwise. not trying to offend or hurt anyones feelings, i know im an idiot and (enter name here) knows way more and is much smarter than me!
 
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