Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

[bm11]

OK,

Just got my Lilja barrel back from Chad at Longrifles inc, he threaded it 1/2x28 and made me a thread protector. Very nice work! Today was my first range session with it, and I am unhappy with the results, I wanted to see if anyone else experienced any issues or maybe found a solution.

The rifle is a CZ 455 Precision Trainer. The action has been bedded into the Manners T4, and I added a Lilja drop in barrel, Timney trigger, and a DIP extended rail. I am still waiting on the DIP bottom metal to be made.

All groups were shot at 50 yards. The ammo used was Lapua Center X. I shot 7 groups of 5 without the suppressor, the average of those was .413". I also shout 4 groups of 5 with my Silencerco Sparrow on. The average of those groups was .730". So, I experienced a 77% decrease in accuracy with my suppressor on. The groups were pretty random, no like it was throwing one round out of an otherwise group of 4, there was pretty equal dispersion.

Any ideas what is going on here? This is opposite of my findings of using a center fire suppressor.

Please let me know!

Thanks,

-Bob

 

[tomcat mv]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

Just a thought, but might try some different ammo to see if you get the same results.

 

[SPAK]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

My accuracy and poi doesn't change at all out to 100 yards with my ss sparrow on or off using wolf target... Though Not likely, but are you getting any baffle strikes or end cap strikes??

Did chad cut the threads according to silencerco specs on the website? There's an Oring in the sparrow that will contact the thread if threads are too long.. I think .475" will contact the o ring. Silencerco's specs for the sparrow have the last .075" of he thread turned down a little bit to engage the Oring properly... If your threads are too long it's possible that your not getting all the way back to the 90 for it to square up against...I'm not sure if that would affect accuracy but I'm sure it won't help any....

 

[bm11]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

I'll check the suppressor but I doubt its the result of strikes. I believe those would cause more erratic groups than 1.4 moa.

 

[SPAK]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

Edited my post above.... What's your thread length from the 90 to the crown??

 

[bm11]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

Long. I can't measure right now as the barreled action is hanging to dry, freshly coated. Long like .475 or more though, enough that I had to remove the internal washer on my sparrow to get it to thread on all the way to the shoulder.

 

[Guest]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

Check to see if the extra weight of the can is drooping the barrel enough, that it's touching the stock now, or when the harmonics kick in from being fired. All my sticks including .22 lr's
shoot better with the cans on vs off.

 

[SPAK]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

The sparrow is so light, it'd have to be a really ultra light barrel to make it droop.... But it is possible...
I'd have to check but I wonder if the thread being so long is causing something to make contact inside the can or if its not squaring up to the shoulder properly it maybe throwing off your groups... If its .475" long you might be able to just have he last .050-.075" turned down to silencerco specs and engage th Oring... It should allow you to shoulder up properly.. I had to do that with my savage fvsr...

This is all guessing fwiw....someone with more knowledge of internals of suppressors might know better if the can doesnt square up to the shoulder properly how much that might affect accuracy even if there aren't any battle strikes...

 

[jbell]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

I think Frogman may be on to something...

 

[bm11]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

Hmmn. In these cases I have heard about buying a spacer/shim that is square.

Or I could send it back to Chad I guess. I imagine he'd cover his work.

On a side note, both times I removed the can there was a good amount of debris on the crown. You guys might be right about it contacting something.

Good news is that its a sparrow. I can pull it apart and thread it on to see whats going on.

 

[Sc0]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

How does the crown look after firing unsuppressed? Is the residue concentric and even in relation to the bore or is it a little lop sided?

I would think that the Lilja would be capable of tighter groups using that ammo?

 

[SPAK]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

http://www.superiorsilence.com/collections/shop-silencerco/products/1-2x28-rifle-thread-spacer
http://www.superiorsilence.com/collectio...hread-protector

I have no doubt Chad will take care of you to whatever you need, but if convenience is a factor i think any of the above will work just fine if indeed your threads are too long and not allowing your can to square up properly.

I wonder if the can isn't square to the bore if it affects how if gasses are not escaping around the bullet. If it does affect it or creates some unpredictable turbulence as the bullet travels through the can, this may be affecting your accuracy.....again....just speculating.

 

[bm11]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sc0</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How does the crown look after firing unsuppressed? Is the residue concentric and even in relation to the bore or is it a little lop sided?

I would think that the Lilja would be capable of tighter groups using that ammo? </div></div>
The crown actually has been getting chunks of sediment from the suppressor. Not fouling, actual sediment.

Tighter groups than the .413 it was averaging you mean? I had some in the .2's and .3's. But yes I believe the average was a bit better before it was bedded. It just means I need to keep experimenting to tighten things up.

The suppressor is my number one concern at the moment though. I have close to $200 in threading the barrel at this point and it will be a royal fucking waste if I never shoot it with my can on again because of the accuracy.

 

[bm11]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

Frogman, that spacer is out of stock. Shit!

 

[SPAK]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sc0</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How does the crown look after firing unsuppressed? Is the residue concentric and even in relation to the bore or is it a little lop sided?

I would think that the Lilja would be capable of tighter groups using that ammo? </div></div>
The crown actually has been getting chunks of sediment from the suppressor. Not fouling, actual sediment.

Tighter groups than the .413 it was averaging you mean? I had some in the .2's and .3's. But yes I believe the average was a bit better before it was bedded. It just means I need to keep experimenting to tighten things up.

The suppressor is my number one concern at the moment though. I have close to $200 in threading the barrel at this point and it will be a royal fucking waste if I never shoot it with my can on again because of the accuracy. </div></div>

I think he was referring to the carbon pattern on the crown firing unsupressed. I would clean the crown really well to get the carbon off.. Don't damage the crown obviously, but get it clean. Fire a few rounds without the can and see what the carbon pattern looks like... It should look even all around sort of like a snowflake...

But if the groups are good with the can off I suspect the crown is ok..

.22 cans are pretty dirty, I'd expect to see a lot of carbon on the muzzle...

Do you know anyone else near by with a threaded .22? Let them shoot with your can and see if the results are the same... It'd be best if the threads weren't too long...

 

[THE MGD]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

fyi; concerning spacers . I called silencerco a while back and they reccomended a nylon flat washer found at the local hardware store. Also heard from others they reccomend peel wahers.
They do stress that the washer must be perfectly flat.
I bought a pack of nylon washers, & found the best one in the pack and used it. I pencil the circmumstance (OD) of the can before I remove it and use that for reallignment. It works for me.

 

[mavrick]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

you can try running an AR15 crush washer as a spacer or a fat o-ring against the sholder to help with the extra space although the oring might not be the best idea as far as accuarcy goes but its worth a shot.


Dustin

 

[RTH1800]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

You guys might be on the right track but I think there is a possibility that it is working like a poorly adjusted barrel tuner. Changing harmonics. A set of washers to allow you to have it tight but further down the threads toward the muzzle will change harmonics and likley help, if all else is correct.

 

[bm11]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

Will a nylon washer be more likely to be concentric? I can probably get ahold of either.

 

[RTH1800]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

I suspect the thinking is the nylon will crush to a more uniform fit.

 

[Ishikawa]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

Bob, send it back to Chad and have it done right, for once and all.

The spacers will likely work, and you should consider it if you have an FV-SR. However your barrel alone is worth more than an FV-SR, not to mention the smithing has already been done and Chad will probably make it right. I wouldn't screw around with a spacer...get it shipped out asap after calling Chad. You'll have it back in a reasonable amount of time, and it will be done right.

Good luck. Hopefully any additional work fixes your issues.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

Standard Ruger 77
Plastic stock stock with the barrel channel hogged out (free float/larger assembly.)
Stock Ruger trigger, stock bolt, stock mag, stock rings, Leopold rim fire scope.
Reworked, single port, stock Ruger barrel, integral.
Shooting Remington Goldens for no other reason than they are plated and reasonably cheap.
1st round out of a clean cold barrel (lower), next four same hole.
64 meters (70 yards)
HV ending up uniformly subsonic.

I get the results seen below.

The question is why and what can we learn from this build. I am trying to be helpful here.

Rimfire suppressors are a real challenge for makers as the anticipated price point is generally pretty low. The vast majority are simply not produced in a manner that insures that maximum accuracy is a top priority or that even repeatability is a stated goal. Most of the time folks spend more time setting up dB meters and taking readings than tweaking production to get the tight tolerances required for supreme accuracy. IMO, monocores are a step backwards in regard to accuracy in rimfires, baffles, even simple ones are mandatory. The vast majority of .22 cans get threaded on to pistols and the expectations for accuracy are much lower in regard to accuracy. I'll say it right out, most .22 cans are mufflers, not accuracy enhancers.

I have seen/used a great number of rimfire rifles and their cans, the results are poor. Can off on some of the high end hosts, great results, can on, poor. There really isn't a great deal of mystery as to why, it is hard enough to get a perfectly aligned armature/stack in larger scale centerfire cans, but to miniturize these requirements down to a rimfire size is perhaps more demanding. Some of these shops, I am NOT saying your shop, just do not have the priority to make rimfire accuracy as important as you are taking it. The dance between high suppression (driven by tight bore pathways that require perfect host alignment) and lower suppression (resulting from more, how shall I say this...perhaps "generous" bores) allowing for less perfect alignment is something a knowledgeable buyer should look for between makes and models. All of this plays into accuracy and even more so if one wants absolutely the quietest and most accurate rimfire possible.

So, what to do? Well, I would argue that the best way to insure maximum accuracy and maximum suppression possible is to make PERMANENT the armature arrangement in rimfires. And, in doing so, allow for harmonic suppression by allowing for a full envelope to provide compression over the whole barrel, straight back to the receiver. The good news? silent..."hear the sear" silent. Accurate, astonishingly so. The bad news? Dedicated, non swappable, one host $200 BATFE ticket. Now I did not mention sealed as being part of the bad news list. The reason is that a properly designed sealed can allows for tens of thousands of PLATED .22 rounds through them before they need lead servicing at the factory. Propellant cleaning is accomplished with a high pressure tool. No subsonics are every required and that is important as subsonics rarely display uniform velocity, are without exception not plated and are filthy as the powders are pure crap. But there is more. An integrals single tap hole allows for a high pressure gas jet to be directed up the sleeve and used to precharge the stack, reducing FRP.

So where does this leave you? You will have to determine if your current can is accurate enough for your needs. The can with its washers, o-rings, spacers, swap 'em if you got 'em, if not avoid 'em. Not working? Try someone else's, but before you buy it, try it. Are there some good blast cans out there? Yes a COUPLE. Blast can rimfire accuracy is possible with a can built to deliver exactly that.

Good luck

 

[bm11]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

Thanks. I talked to chad and am sending him back my barrel to redo the threads to the exact silencerco spec I downloaded from their site.

 

[SPAK]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

Good plan ... Let us know how it turns out.

 

[BenY 2013]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

This has been a very interesting thread, I always thought suppressors made rifles more accurate. To the OP I would love to see pictures of your CZ if you get a chance, hope that this will solve the problem!

 

[bm11]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BenY 2013</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This has been a very interesting thread, I always thought suppressors made rifles more accurate. To the OP I would love to see pictures of your CZ if you get a chance, hope that this will solve the problem! </div></div>Will do. I was trying to wait until it was done to take a pic. Just waiting on DIP to make me bottom metal, and maybe waiting on a bolt knob.

This project has been rather expensive. I have more tied up in this rimfire than a lot of guys have in their centerfire rigs.

 

[SPAK]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

It's worth it... In the end it'll be that much more fun

it sure is nice to just hear "click" and see the holes appear down range. You won't be disappointed in the sparrow either... I use it on my fvsr and my Ruger mark iii. I have no poi shift and it's stupid quiet... Cleaning is easy, I just throw the baffle stack and clam shell in stainless steel media to tumble and they come out clean... The finish on the end cap gets worn off and looks more like a gun metal finish with the tumble but ill just have it coated again at some point if it starts to get too bothersome...

 

[BenY 2013]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BenY 2013</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This has been a very interesting thread, I always thought suppressors made rifles more accurate. To the OP I would love to see pictures of your CZ if you get a chance, hope that this will solve the problem! </div></div>Will do. I was trying to wait until it was done to take a pic. Just waiting on DIP to make me bottom metal, and maybe waiting on a bolt knob.

This project has been rather expensive. I have more tied up in this rimfire than a lot of guys have in their centerfire rigs. </div></div>

Especially wanna see it if you add an aftermarket bolt knob, I'm not a fan of the CZ round knob.

 

[bm11]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

I like the round knob just wish it protruded a bit more from the stock.

 

[D_TROS]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

... The groups were pretty random, no like it was throwing one round out of an otherwise group of 4, there was pretty equal dispersion. ..

-Bob </div></div>

Hey BM, I am working on a full review of my rifle, but here are my initial groups at 50 yds. Shooting was done when it was 8* F out And I have not tested without suppressor yet (reason I have not posted full review of my new rifle). Fliers may have been from numb finger

Rifle Anschutz: 1407
Suppressor: SAS



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I was also annoyed by the ocassional flyer with quality ammo with suppressor (stopped shooting center x after 2 groups because the flier was so annoying and i didnt want to waste ammo). Was too cold to be removing and reattaching suppressor. If nothing else, I found a decent cold weather choice in eithe SK Match or Blue box, but I was hoping for better. Will let ya know if things tighten up without the suppressor in the next week or so (got a centerfire match this weekend).

I have done no other accuracy testing with this suppressor as my 40x has been in prison since July (getting repeater mod done). Will do some testing on that rifle as well.

Regards,
DT

 

[bm11]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

DTROS- my unsuppressed groups were definitely better than yours, (except your best group of SK jag,) but my suppressed groups weren't too far off. Thanks and please keep me in the loop.

DFoosking- The suppressor was not loose at all. Also, there was ZERO poi shift.

I'm going to shoot a bit more tomorrow before I send the barrel back, I snagged a washer from work as well to try.

 

[jbell]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

D_TROS have you shot this rifle in warmer weather? I have been told that rimfires dont shoot that well when the temp falls. I have been out of the rimfire game for many years b/c I got tired of chasing lot #s. I have go back into it recently and it is getting cold here in Maine too, so this weekend I am going to go out and see what mine will do in the cold. I am supprised the center X didnt work for you as it seems to be the most consistant out of the OPs rifle over most of the ammo you tried. Out of my Sauer it is very consistant across 4 diff lot #s as well. I completely understand the finickiness of rimfires and ammo choice it was just an observation. Keep us posted on how your Anschutz shoots.

 

[D_TROS]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jbell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">D_TROS have you shot this rifle in warmer weather? I have been told that rimfires dont shoot that well when the temp falls. </div></div>

No sir, not on paper. That was 2 weeks ago, and last weekend, I shot steel exclusively at 200 yds (but it was considerably warmer at 50*). I also stopped shooting cause the lube was changing colors (freezing up). I was hoping to get some more data once it gets warmer, and my center x stash is dwindling.

Also on the suppressor being loose on threads, mine is loose-ish until it bumps up against the shoulder. Then it tightens up real nice. I have not tested yet for shifting of POA-POI with on-off yet. Only had rifle 2 weeks now.

BM, I have had CHad work on 2 of my rifles, and I would be surprised if you see any improvement when you get it back (his work is top notch). The most important aspect is the shoulder the suppressor bumps up against. If this is tits, then the only other factor/outlier would be the suppressor. (in my mind at least

ha good luck tho


Regards,
DT

 

[Early Cuyler]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Standard Ruger 77
Plastic stock stock with the barrel channel hogged out (free float/larger assembly.)
Stock Ruger trigger, stock bolt, stock mag, stock rings, Leopold rim fire scope.
Reworked, single port, stock Ruger barrel, integral.
Shooting Remington Goldens for no other reason than they are plated and reasonably cheap.
1st round out of a clean cold barrel (lower), next four same hole.
64 meters (70 yards)
HV ending up uniformly subsonic.

I get the results seen below.

The question is why and what can we learn from this build. I am trying to be helpful here.

Rimfire suppressors are a real challenge for makers as the anticipated price point is generally pretty low. The vast majority are simply not produced in a manner that insures that maximum accuracy is a top priority or that even repeatability is a stated goal. Most of the time folks spend more time setting up dB meters and taking readings than tweaking production to get the tight tolerances required for supreme accuracy. IMO, monocores are a step backwards in regard to accuracy in rimfires, baffles, even simple ones are mandatory. The vast majority of .22 cans get threaded on to pistols and the expectations for accuracy are much lower in regard to accuracy. I'll say it right out, most .22 cans are mufflers, not accuracy enhancers.

I have seen/used a great number of rimfire rifles and their cans, the results are poor. Can off on some of the high end hosts, great results, can on, poor. There really isn't a great deal of mystery as to why, it is hard enough to get a perfectly aligned armature/stack in larger scale centerfire cans, but to miniturize these requirements down to a rimfire size is perhaps more demanding. Some of these shops, I am NOT saying your shop, just do not have the priority to make rimfire accuracy as important as you are taking it. The dance between high suppression (driven by tight bore pathways that require perfect host alignment) and lower suppression (resulting from more, how shall I say this...perhaps "generous" bores) allowing for less perfect alignment is something a knowledgeable buyer should look for between makes and models. All of this plays into accuracy and even more so if one wants absolutely the quietest and most accurate rimfire possible.

So, what to do? Well, I would argue that the best way to insure maximum accuracy and maximum suppression possible is to make PERMANENT the armature arrangement in rimfires. And, in doing so, allow for harmonic suppression by allowing for a full envelope to provide compression over the whole barrel, straight back to the receiver. The good news? silent..."hear the sear" silent. Accurate, astonishingly so. The bad news? Dedicated, non swappable, one host $200 BATFE ticket. Now I did not mention sealed as being part of the bad news list. The reason is that a properly designed sealed can allows for tens of thousands of PLATED .22 rounds through them before they need lead servicing at the factory. Propellant cleaning is accomplished with a high pressure tool. No subsonics are every required and that is important as subsonics rarely display uniform velocity, are without exception not plated and are filthy as the powders are pure crap. But there is more. An integrals single tap hole allows for a high pressure gas jet to be directed up the sleeve and used to precharge the stack, reducing FRP.

So where does this leave you? You will have to determine if your current can is accurate enough for your needs. The can with its washers, o-rings, spacers, swap 'em if you got 'em, if not avoid 'em. Not working? Try someone else's, but before you buy it, try it. Are there some good blast cans out there? Yes a COUPLE. Blast can rimfire accuracy is possible with a can built to deliver exactly that.

Good luck

</div></div>

Excellent post and very informative. If I can get similar results out of my AWC Ultra II (when it gets out of ATF jail), you won't be able to wipe the smile off my face with a shitty mop!

 

[bm11]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

Ok, got to test a couple things tonight and take a couple measurements to update this thread.

1- the shoulder to crown length is .495".

2- I found a washer that measures .95", perfect for testing this out.

3- The crown definitely does NOT contact the blast baffle, I took a couple pics to demonstrate:

I will still be sending it out, but I am going to shoot it one more time. I am going to update the thread after.

 

[mavrick10_2000]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sc0</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How does the crown look after firing unsuppressed? Is the residue concentric and even in relation to the bore or is it a little lop sided?

I would think that the Lilja would be capable of tighter groups using that ammo? </div></div>
The crown actually has been getting chunks of sediment from the suppressor. Not fouling, actual sediment.

Tighter groups than the .413 it was averaging you mean? I had some in the .2's and .3's. But yes I believe the average was a bit better before it was bedded. It just means I need to keep experimenting to tighten things up.

The suppressor is my number one concern at the moment though. I have close to $200 in threading the barrel at this point and it will be a royal fucking waste if I never shoot it with my can on again because of the accuracy. </div></div>

The "sediment" is due to the filthy nature of target ammo (usually subsonic), suppressed it's horrendously filthy.

 

[bm11]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

Maverick-

Its not the ammo. I have used this can on my Buckmark for thousands and thousands of rounds. Hell, I put close to 2k rounds of CCI Standard velocity through it in one camp weekend once. This sediment was different. It was pieces of carbon and lead from the blast chamber area of the suppressor breaking lose- I had a chunk of lead buildup come off one of the clamshell halves that probably weighed about 20 grains.This is the same buildup that I couldn't scrape off the side no matter how hard I tried.

SOMETHING funky was going on. My theory- a huge about of lead and carbon built up in the "throat" area of the suppressor, forward of my Buckmark's .395" thread length. Threading on to .495" thread length did provide quite a bit of resistance. I'm thinking that the crown of the barrrel pressed in and broke up a bunch of hardened lead buildup. Perhaps enough of it that the bullets were contacting it just enough to throw the accuracy off.

The washer should tell the whole story today, if the extreme temp doesnt ruin the performance all together.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

I agree it is not the ammo as related to the propellant waste.
But that pic is a Poster Child for shooting plated ammo.
Pay the $$$, shoot plated ammo and stop dealing with the lead.
Take the cost in time and materials of whatever you are using and the time you are taking to clean that up and divide it by the number of rounds you shot to get there. That is the cost of shooting unplated.

There is no "target" subsonic ammo, it is all crap. You have to tap down quality HV to get uniform results.

That extreme weather you live in is the best weather in over two years. The last two days have spent working up loads and shooting because of the cold. It gets no better than -8F and no wind.

Smokin' cold Sea...no breeze at all.

 

[bm11]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

Rolling thunder,

I think you are confused as to the quality of ammo I have been shooting out of this rifle. It has been getting fed ammo that costs anywhere between $13 and $25 per box of 50. I have yet to run into a true match ammo that uses a plated bullet...

-BM

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

I am confused, its what gets me through my day. Though I will have to work up to spending $.50 a round for unplated .22s.

I stopped shooting "unplated anything Match" <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">through a suppressor </span></span>when I started getting those results with plated reasonable ammo.

Like Federal (or maybe you are talking about the other fed)? You might like these:

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rimfire.aspx?id=54

I am not crazy about hollow point, so I prefer these, the Golden's were used on the posted target.

.

 

[THE MGD]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

^^^
Amen

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

I thought that for a very long time. In part it is true, there is really very poor ammo, fair ammo and good ammo for .22s.

But, to a very real degree I found that what I thought was the good ammo wasn't always good all the time, not always good between different hosts and never the same with the can on. Between lots alone was unpredictable in .22s. I found what I was looking for outside of "this is really poor, this is really fair, this is really good" in the most general of sense.

Lets take a look, I'll drop off the Center-X because there was not three targets to choose from like the rest. Now I will take we weakest group from each of the three. We get this..

Now this is some expensive ammo here. Each brand and offering is trying to distinguish itself based on Match performance. In the end? One would be hard pressed to say that there is a profound difference to be seen. Why? It is not the ammo determining the accuracy or lack there of here. In fact, if all of these were shot in series, with the first starting after a cleaning, we can toss the whole of it out as useless data. These targets are about more than the ammo.
These targets are, if I understand what was written properly, shot without a can. ADD the can into THIS mix and you can write off the ammo in its entirety. In fact, I think he offered that the can is problematic already.

My point is, getting real accuracy out of a suppressed .22 has more to do with the quality of the can than most shooters will appreciate....and most makers will pursue. Its the relationship between the can's armature and the barrel that in this caliber is just about everything. Much more than the ammo. Within the spectrum of plated .22s is more than enough variety to find a bullet that is plated for SUPPRESSED shooting. What ever perceived accuracy trade off there might possibly be....and this is important...does not come close to comparing what will happen to accuracy as your can fills up from shooting unplated rounds. In my case, the search for supreme accuracy in suppressed .22 at around 75 yards was found using plated, averagely "good" ammo and that has allowed for uniform results for a very long time.

I'll step out of this thread except for a direct question, as I do not want to hijack it to become a bullet issue.

 

[bm11]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

I would like to note that my AVERAGE 5 shot group with Lapua Center X is in the .3's at 50 yards over the course of 10 groups. (Unsuppressed.) I would be ELATED if I could do the same with inexpensive ammo. Hand picking the best groups for the internet, they end up looking like this:

When in reality, often they look like this:

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

Those are not my groups, read higher in the thread.

"I'd prefer to to go the route of the OP...building the most accurate rifle I potentially can...then suppress it."

I'd prefer to to go the route of the OP...building the most accurate rifle I potentially can...but then I would suppress it with a can specifically built for maximum accuracy in a .22. Whether rimfire or centerfire, we have come to recognize some important characteristics of supremely accurate suppression. Among them, accuracy appears to be dependent on a precise relationship between the barrel and the suppressor's armature. There is also strong evidence that the baffles should present themselves to the projectile uniformly in regard to their facings. Asymmetric turbulence may play a much more significant role in the lower velocities found in centerfire. Also within the smallest calibers, poor powders and unplated bullets leave debris that may quickly exacerbate the turbulence problem.

Just as you mention, and like everything else, there are a number of truly poor integrals. My most accurate rifle suppressed is also a blast can build. But not in .22.

Stepping out altogether now.

BM, nice targets! You have your host and your bullets...find your can and at least try to see how plated might perform.

 

[D_TROS]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Lets take a look, I'll drop off the Center-X because there was not three targets to choose from like the rest. Now I will take we weakest group from each of the three. We get this..

Now this is some expensive ammo here. Each brand and offering is trying to distinguish itself based on Match performance. In the end? One would be hard pressed to say that there is a profound difference to be seen. Why? It is not the ammo determining the accuracy or lack there of here. In fact, if all of these were shot in series, with the first starting after a cleaning, we can toss the whole of it out as useless data. These targets are about more than the ammo.
These targets are, if I understand what was written properly, <span style="color: #FF0000">shot without a can.</span> ADD the can into THIS mix and you can write off the ammo in its entirety. In fact, I think <span style="color: #FF0000">he offered that the can is problematic already</span>.

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FIrst off RT, I appreciate your thoughts. I feel I throughly agree with you but for a few corrections.

The groups above are my groups shot at 8 deg temp WITH a suppressor on. I believe it to be both temp and can affeting the groups. More testing to follow as I intend to do some groups without the can.

Second red, I dont know if my can is problamatic as this is the very first testing I have done with it on any platform.

Third, if you look at my original target, the groups were shot from bottom->up, and on almost all of them, the groups were improving the more I shot the amo (seasoning the barrel). The "worst groups" you posted, were almost always the first groups of that ammo after cleaning the barrel

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<span style="color: #FF0000">My point is, getting real accuracy out of a suppressed .22 has more to do with the quality of the can than most shooters will appreciate</span>.....


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I also agree, not only with rimfire, but also centerfire. My hopeful idea, as I think BM's is, is finding a ammo both the rifle/can combo likes, but I am beginning to realize this may not ever happen for various reasons, primarily being the lead buildup.

Its beginning to look as if a can is a "great liberalizer" in regards to accuracy and ammo variants.
That sucks as I want an extremely accurate rifle for our monthly matches, as well as positional shooting, and I dont think they make a plated sub-sonic 22 round??

Regards,
DT

 

[bm11]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire

Range update 1/24/13

Despite the frigid cold (somewhere around 0f,) I went to the range today. First group with the can and spacer definitely shows promise for the accuracy of the can:

The first shot was the one to the left. The next 4 are in the middle, eyeballing the group it's in the .1's, maybe even smaller.

I had walked down to take a look and when I came back, I shot a similar group. Here is the result:

Again, the first shot to the left, the next four centered again, not as tight of a group but excluding the first round, a pretty acceptable group.

Now from there, everything went to shit. Complete shit. Can off or on, groups were 1" plus, all over the place. I think the ammo had hit a threshold where below a certain temp it just wouldn't perform. I tried some Gold Medal and some CCI Standard Velocity, both with even shittier performance. So I packed it up and went home.

 

[300ATT]

Re: Suppressors and accuracy loss with a rimfire


Rimfires like what they like. I was very happy with the results of my TBAC 22-S.

Bottom line:
1.) You have to test.
2.) Most of the ammo I have tried shot the same with or without the suppressor.
3.) In a few cases it shot worse.
4.) In a few cases certain ammo shot better with the suppressor.
5.) Match ammo seemed unaffected with or without the suppressor.
6.) Sometimes First Round Pop will affect accuracy (sometimes noticeable with match ammo)

Here's are some of my results with a Thunderbeast 22-S and Sako Finnfire Range:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...027#Post3450027