I'm sure this has been asked before but what is the reasoning behind not alllowing suppressors to be used F-class competition?
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F T/R Competition Suppressors in F-class
- Thread starter SOBRYDEL
- Start date
The committee of the NRA board will not pass it for fears of competitive inequality and legal problems in crossing state lines. Until there's a changing of the guard it won't happen.
FatBoy has the most accurate answer.
I'd submit that it isn't a changing of guard at NRA that will allow suppressors to be used in F-class but more a changing of NFA laws.
You can use a suppressor at local match, score won't count / be turned in to NRA for earning points towards your rating / ranking (marksman, sharpshooter, etc.).
Really going to depend on your local match director. Locally we let guys shoot suppressed at F-class match but scores not turned into NRA.
I'd submit that it isn't a changing of guard at NRA that will allow suppressors to be used in F-class but more a changing of NFA laws.
You can use a suppressor at local match, score won't count / be turned in to NRA for earning points towards your rating / ranking (marksman, sharpshooter, etc.).
Really going to depend on your local match director. Locally we let guys shoot suppressed at F-class match but scores not turned into NRA.
I was hoping after the split with the CMP the NRA would realize they need to cater to their customers. They did, but what I didnt realize is their customers are the NRA elite and the IRL circle. Competition shooters are an afterthought by and large.
You're spot on with local MDs. Most I know at this point allow them and guys can shoot right along side the rest of us for fun. Unlike the dude with brakes, who get placed 4 points down the line and get a stool put just left of their muzzle
We turn away no one who can operate safely, regardless of the rules. They just get to shoot for bragging rights.
If they allowed suppressors they would have to allow brakes as well. I personally am not against them allowing it but I also realize the health and safety bonus of suppressors. The only time I think of shooting with a brake is when one is right next to me on the line. That usually leads to a google search of loadest muzzle brakes....
Suppressors are allowed at all Towanda Pa R &P Club F-Class Prone and Bench Matches.
These club matches are not N.R.A. affiliated. However we do not allow muzzle brakes. Tony-L
These club matches are not N.R.A. affiliated. However we do not allow muzzle brakes. Tony-L
Why couldn't suppressors be allowed, but not brakes? As you illustrated, muzzle brakes can distract nearby shooters on the line. Cans don't do that. That would be enough for me to allow suppressors, but not brakes, if I made the rules.
This would be a great move. We need more people using suppressors for things like F-class, makes them much harder to take away. And they WOULD be a competitive advantage due to recoil reduction. So are heavy-ass rifles and $600 front rests. Since when do equipment costs matter in the judgement of fairness in this sport?
Pretty sure you can use a pistol grip in high power but not all states allow them. I don’t see that as a problem when talking about allowing suppressors
So, how do the guys who use pistol grips on their rifles compete in States that don't allow pistol grips? Serious question...I don't compete so I'm not sure how competitions that allow use of devices that are not allowed in some places proceeds.
Anyone know?
VooDoo
Anyone know?
VooDoo
If suppressors where allowed as you say then you would have to have one to be competitive. I shoot F T/R off a Harris bipod with a stock FN SPR and a Bushnell DMR. I am competitive but it's because of work and practice. I dont need another advantage for others to buy to get the upper hand. I guess the good news is they would have to make weight some how with lighter barrels or something. Maybe it's just my internal battle to resist building a full on gamer rifle that makes me see them as a unfair advantage. Then again I have beaten better rifles with suppressors often enough at open matches(not for score) to realize maybe they arent a advantage if your fundamentals are good.
If you take over and allow em it wont stop me shooting any more than they guys running 30" barrels, 45x scopes and ski pods. And the line will be quieter...
If you take over and allow em it wont stop me shooting any more than they guys running 30" barrels, 45x scopes and ski pods. And the line will be quieter...
I wouldn't want to run a suppressor, even if it were allowed. You'd be getting your barrel so smoking hot after ~6-7 sighters and 20 for record in a short timeframe. The mirage would be terrible, and I'd have to think it would reduce our already short barrel life. Not to mention, the more carbon that accumulates in the suppressor, it's got to have the safe effect as a tuner.
I know the PRS guys shoot them, but different games entirely.
I know the PRS guys shoot them, but different games entirely.
I do it all the time just to piss the F open guys off.
I competed in a few matches with a mine, both 30cal and 223. My scores suffered as a result. Yes, it allowed me to shoot a magnum but the powder fouling and heat over a 15 minute 20shot + sighters match caused a raise in POI in the 300wm. A 338 can may have solved this, but I doubt it would be a long term competitive solution.
The 223 made almost no difference that I could tell, but 600y with an 18" barrel and 77s is a little tough for me anyway. (Sling shooting)
They certainly reduce the recoil pulse but I don't think it outways the negatives for a long string of fire. 5 shot match, Bob's your uncle. 20-25, not so much. That said, IF they were allowed by the NRA/CMP for mid/long long prone competitors someone would find a way to build one that would solve these issues. It would necessarily drive the tech to that game as well, assuming there was enough market for the effort.
The 223 made almost no difference that I could tell, but 600y with an 18" barrel and 77s is a little tough for me anyway. (Sling shooting)
They certainly reduce the recoil pulse but I don't think it outways the negatives for a long string of fire. 5 shot match, Bob's your uncle. 20-25, not so much. That said, IF they were allowed by the NRA/CMP for mid/long long prone competitors someone would find a way to build one that would solve these issues. It would necessarily drive the tech to that game as well, assuming there was enough market for the effort.
I run a 30" barrel and my F-TR rifles come in less than an ounce under weight. Even if they were allowed I'd never run a can in a serious competition, and I'm going to wager that nobody else who is competing for the podium would either. Nobody is going to give up barrel length (MV) or contour (stiffness). If you want to shoot out of competition with a can I don't know of a single MD who will turn you away (there are probably some out there).
A competitive F-TR setup needs to be able to clean an F class target at 1000 yards when the conditions are right. For example at the SWN a couple of weeks ago there was an pretty easy morning. There were 5 cleans shot that first relay in F-TR. Two of guys who shot them finished 1st (Peter Johns) and 2nd(me) in the grand agg. The guy who finished 3rd would have been second if he hadn't shot a 199 in that relay. I don't know if Ian dropped that point out the side or in the corner, but it wasn't there. I'll challenge anyone to come to the line with a rifle that makes weight in F-TR with a can, and put 20 out of 20 in the 10 ring on an F class target at 1000 yds. If you can't do that when the conditions allow it you're participating, not competing.
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and... F class is a recognized class under ICFRA for international competition. It's not just an NRA sport here in the US. The ICFRA rules are slightly different but by and large anything you can shoot in F-TR under the NRA rules you can shoot in in ICFRA, and they don't allow for muzzle devices, so changing the NRA rules would put them into significant disagreement with the international rules. Probably not an issue for a lot of guys but having some semblance of agreement between the rules makes it easier to transition from one set to another. Some folks may not compete internationally but personally I shoot in Canada a couple of times a yr, and I'm shooting in South Africa the end of March.
A competitive F-TR setup needs to be able to clean an F class target at 1000 yards when the conditions are right. For example at the SWN a couple of weeks ago there was an pretty easy morning. There were 5 cleans shot that first relay in F-TR. Two of guys who shot them finished 1st (Peter Johns) and 2nd(me) in the grand agg. The guy who finished 3rd would have been second if he hadn't shot a 199 in that relay. I don't know if Ian dropped that point out the side or in the corner, but it wasn't there. I'll challenge anyone to come to the line with a rifle that makes weight in F-TR with a can, and put 20 out of 20 in the 10 ring on an F class target at 1000 yds. If you can't do that when the conditions allow it you're participating, not competing.
(edit)
and... F class is a recognized class under ICFRA for international competition. It's not just an NRA sport here in the US. The ICFRA rules are slightly different but by and large anything you can shoot in F-TR under the NRA rules you can shoot in in ICFRA, and they don't allow for muzzle devices, so changing the NRA rules would put them into significant disagreement with the international rules. Probably not an issue for a lot of guys but having some semblance of agreement between the rules makes it easier to transition from one set to another. Some folks may not compete internationally but personally I shoot in Canada a couple of times a yr, and I'm shooting in South Africa the end of March.
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In this context I think he's talking about Nationals, and when the conditions are stable and/or calm. If so, he would be 100% correct. If you drop a point in conditions like that, you pretty well drop 5-10 positions instantly. To a lesser extent the same can be said for a lot of better attended club matches around the country.
I wouldn't take it to mean that someone isn't an F-Class shooter or something like that....it's just that if you've got some big names you're shooting against, you can't afford anything less than perfection.
I would imagine at bswn they wouldn’t let anyone shoot with a can because that shoot is in such high demand for real fclass guys anyway.
Nationals? Some of these guys shoot at my home range!
Geno, chill, XTR has relevant, good observations.
When I get to a match, I'm there to have fun and maybe shoot better than last time out and not finish last in my class. It takes a lot to win, rifle, ammo, and shooter. I'd much rather lose to guys, or gals, that can shoot than win against those who cannot.
Geno, chill, XTR has relevant, good observations.
When I get to a match, I'm there to have fun and maybe shoot better than last time out and not finish last in my class. It takes a lot to win, rifle, ammo, and shooter. I'd much rather lose to guys, or gals, that can shoot than win against those who cannot.
So are you saying guys who suck should just stay home since they can't "compete" at or above your level lol?
Yea, SWN isn't going to let anyone who is shooting out of competition shoot, but it sells out in 6 minutes too.
My comment about competing is in the context that if you are making a decision regarding your gear that is likely to cost you any points at a major F class match, then you are conceding spots. What you do for fun in a club match is something totally different. I'll probably run my 22" 308 with a can on it in some of the matches locally if the MD will let me, 'cause it would be fun, but the rules for F class don't need to be changed to make it class legal.
These are the top 21 scores from F-TR at the SWN. Other than Peter who gobsmacked the field and won by 12 points, take a look at those scores and look at what giving up a point costs you in the grand agg.
My comment about competing is in the context that if you are making a decision regarding your gear that is likely to cost you any points at a major F class match, then you are conceding spots. What you do for fun in a club match is something totally different. I'll probably run my 22" 308 with a can on it in some of the matches locally if the MD will let me, 'cause it would be fun, but the rules for F class don't need to be changed to make it class legal.
These are the top 21 scores from F-TR at the SWN. Other than Peter who gobsmacked the field and won by 12 points, take a look at those scores and look at what giving up a point costs you in the grand agg.
1 | 1242 | 58 |
2 | 1230 | 50 |
3 | 1230 | 46 |
4 | 1229 | 48 |
5 | 1226 | 44 |
6 | 1224 | 43 |
7 | 1223 | 31 |
8 | 1221 | 42 |
9 | 1220 | 43 |
10 | 1219 | 42 |
11 | 1219 | 40 |
12 | 1219 | 39 |
13 | 1218 | 46 |
14 | 1218 | 45 |
15 | 1218 | 43 |
16 | 1218 | 42 |
17 | 1217 | 44 |
18 | 1217 | 42 |
19 | 1217 | 40 |
20 | 1216 | 44 |
21 | 1214 | 39 |
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On a related note, I actually shot an F-Class match a couple weeks ago with a can. The club had changed from registered to approved matches while some things got sorted, so I used that as an excuse to play around. I took 4th in F-T/R out of 14. I wouldn't recommend doing it as the mirage and barrel heat was pretty brutal.
The rig I was shooting wasn't one of my dedicated F-T/R rifles; just a trued up R700 with a 28" Bartlein and a .169 FB .223 chamber & and a 1/4 MOA 8-32x SIII. There isn't much recoil to begin with shooting a 17.9lb .223, but with the can it was non-existent.
The rig I was shooting wasn't one of my dedicated F-T/R rifles; just a trued up R700 with a 28" Bartlein and a .169 FB .223 chamber & and a 1/4 MOA 8-32x SIII. There isn't much recoil to begin with shooting a 17.9lb .223, but with the can it was non-existent.
I guess i could see that if you missed "When I get to a match, I'm there to have fun and maybe shoot better than last time out and not finish last in my class." in the same paragraph.
It was intended as self deprecating humor in the context of the whole post. Every discipline that I have shot in Houston at Bayou has National winners or record holders, (I'm not one of them). I observe and learn, and expect to be outshot, outgunned, and outloaded.
My hold is what it is. My guns are cheap. My waterline is the extreme spread I see on the chronograph, except when I push it low with anticipation. Wind reading has progressed. Oh yeah, I'm down on the smelly, coat wearing, slinger side of the line. As long as my arthritic joints will allow.
But I still have fun.
It was intended as self deprecating humor in the context of the whole post. Every discipline that I have shot in Houston at Bayou has National winners or record holders, (I'm not one of them). I observe and learn, and expect to be outshot, outgunned, and outloaded.
My hold is what it is. My guns are cheap. My waterline is the extreme spread I see on the chronograph, except when I push it low with anticipation. Wind reading has progressed. Oh yeah, I'm down on the smelly, coat wearing, slinger side of the line. As long as my arthritic joints will allow.
But I still have fun.
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