Surgeons action, which twist rate and barrel size

[Ghettomedic]

Name Eddie, New to the form not new to shooting.
I just pick up a surgeons short action in .308 I needed some advice on choosing a barrel
Looking at getting krieger
caliber .308
looking to shooting between 100-600 yards possible more
I've decided on getting ethier a 24-26inch heavy varmint #17
m11 severe duty muzzle brake
My man question should i get a 24inch or a 26inch barrel
and which twist rate should I get
keep in mind when its all said and done ill have 5k into the gun so cheap ammo is out the window
I was thinking of a 1-12 twist rate but i was also looking at a 1-10
tips and advice please thanks

 

[hk dave]

Re: Surgeons action, which twist rate and barrel size

There a reason you want Heavy Varmint for 308? That truck axle is gonna weigh a ton... basically make the rifle not something you will carry.

Personally I'd go 26", i know others will argue that you can do just as well with shorter barrels... but i don't see the point in the handicap. If I wanted a shorter rifle, i'd use an AR.

The twist rate is dependent upon what length bullet you'll fire... if you're going to stay at 600 yards and under, 1:12 will be fine... if you're going to ever go beyond that range (give the right bullet)... anything between 1:10 and 1:11.25 should be great. (bet 1:12 will be fine past 600 yards as well)

You mentioned you'll be shooting match ammo... so probably 175smk or the like... 1:10 and 1:11.25 work perfectly for that bullet.

 

[ezee]

Re: Surgeons action, which twist rate and barrel size

What bullets are you going to shoot?

 

[Ghettomedic]

Re: Surgeons action, which twist rate and barrel size

Im open still to bullets I know choosing a bullet can be a bit of an art.
The gun deft isnt going be for carrying she will be a bench and proan shooting queen
Im thinking of Heavier bullets as you mentions 175grain and up
I heard the 1:10 is the most common twist rate an will stablize a wider ranger of bullets but i hear the 1:12 is better for heavier bullets hence the delema.
I would like to go past 600 yards but im keeping it practical
100-600 yards I believe is obtainable for my gun in a .308
past that a .300WM caliber gun is more sensable and better fitted for that goal.

 

[hk dave]

Re: Surgeons action, which twist rate and barrel size

It's the other way around. 1:10 for heavier/longer bullets, 1:12 for lighter/shorter ones.

This would explain the confusion.

 

[JB02]

Re: Surgeons action, which twist rate and barrel size

I have an MTU barrel on my Surgeon Rifles built 308. Yes, this rifle is heavy but it's not designed to be a mountain rifle.

I'm not sure that 26" is going to give you that much more edge with a .308. 24" is probably adequate.

You want a 1/10 twist barrel. A 1/10 twist works great for 175 SMKs and 178 BTHPs/AMAXs and is well suited all the up to 208s if your shooting curiosity ever takes you there.

A .308 bolt faced Surgeon will also work with 260 Remington, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5x47 Lapua, 243 Winchester, and 7mm-08. All of these calibers are ballistically superior to .308 Win. A 6.5mm bullet has the ballistic profile of a 300 Win Mag without the recoil. They have far less wind drift than a 308 at the distances you are looking to shoot, which is the edge they provide competitive shooters. Perhaps you want to consider a 6.5mm caliber with a 26" barrel and a M24, or med palma, or sendero contour (1/8.5 twist or faster). The advantages a 308 has over these calibers are greater selection of factory ammo and longer barrel life.

 

[PatrickChewing]

Re: Surgeons action, which twist rate and barrel size

If it were me, I would go 1-10 twist, M24/M40 contour, 24 inches.

 

[B3dlam]

Re: Surgeons action, which twist rate and barrel size

Like JGB said I would definitely look into a diffrent caliber .308 is great for ammo but if your going to reload to get high end precision 6.5 bullets are a great option I love my creedmoor.

Barrel length wise you might as well go long since its already going to be a beast to carry. Plus the extra length gives you extra length when you need to set back the barrel as your throat erodes.

 

[Ghettomedic]

Re: Surgeons action, which twist rate and barrel size

You do bring up a great point, I mean if it wasnt for the recoil issues in terms of mutiple shots during a range outing I would get a 300 wind mag.
my only issue is the avalability of the ammo like the 6.5 and such and the price of the ammo alone. I know .338 lupa is a great caliber for long distance and they make superior brakes to lession the recoil but @ almost 50-60 bucks starting for a box of ammo is murder. But I am going to looking into those calibers
I am leaning more toward a 1/10 twist with a 26inch barrel and a muzzle brake with the idea that the extra 2inch will help with bullet stablization.
The other question is I've heard krieger barrels are good and in talking to them over the phone they are extremely friendly and helpful
but is there any other companies you guys like as well
looking for a heavy target/varmit style barrel

 

[JB02]

Re: Surgeons action, which twist rate and barrel size

I don't think an extra 2" is going to help you if you go .308. The extra length is to provide you velocity, but after 24" you are entering a realm of diminishing returns.

There is no downside for going with a 1/10 twist barrel. You need faster twists to stabilize heavy bullets. For tactical shooting, you want heavy bullets with better ballistic coefficients so that wind doesn't effect them so much, and heavy bullets require a faster twist. A slower twist will give you more velocity, but it will be at the expense of needing to shoot lower weight bullets that are more susceptible to wind drift. Pick your poison, but for most shooters, it's easier to compensate for elevation than wind.

The 300 Norma Magnum was designed to provide a lower cost alternative to 338 Lapua. Ballistically, it's very similar; it doesn't have the downrange energy, but that's secondary importance unless you're in a war zone. Your .308 bolt faced short action will not accommodate that caliber.

Since you're starting your build from scratch, go with a 6.5 creedmoor. You can get factory ammo for it and awesome ballistics. A 26" barrel will actually provide you a bit more meaningful velocity edge for a 6.5mm caliber.

 

[JB02]

Re: Surgeons action, which twist rate and barrel size

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EMS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">keep in mind when its all said and done ill have 5k into the gun so cheap ammo is out the window</div></div>
I've spent a pile of money on ammo; easily a few thousand last year. That is a cost you shouldn't neglect

 

[Ghettomedic]

Re: Surgeons action, which twist rate and barrel size

im deft going to look into the 6.5 creedmoor,
question though
you said the .308 action from surgeons will work?
what about the trigger gaurd with the box magazine from badger?
also what is a good twist rate to go with if I decide to go with it?

 

[ZLBubba]

Re: Surgeons action, which twist rate and barrel size

For a DBM, it's hard to beat Surgeon. If I were in your shoes, I'd take a 20" standard palma with a 1:10" twist. Good mix between portability and velocity. It won't be a boat anchor either.

Let me repeat: get a 1:10" twist and plan on using 155 Scenars, 175 SMKs, or 178 AMAXs. You'll be happy with the results.

 

[Ghettomedic]

Re: Surgeons action, which twist rate and barrel size

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LCDR JGB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think an extra 2" is going to help you if you go .308. The extra length is to provide you velocity, but after 24" you are entering a realm of diminishing returns.

There is no downside for going with a 1/10 twist barrel. You need faster twists to stabilize heavy bullets. For tactical shooting, you want heavy bullets with better ballistic coefficients so that wind doesn't effect them so much, and heavy bullets require a faster twist. A slower twist will give you more velocity, but it will be at the expense of needing to shoot lower weight bullets that are more susceptible to wind drift. Pick your poison, but for most shooters, it's easier to compensate for elevation than wind.

The 300 Norma Magnum was designed to provide a lower cost alternative to 338 Lapua. Ballistically, it's very similar; it doesn't have the downrange energy, but that's secondary importance unless you're in a war zone. Your .308 bolt faced short action will not accommodate that caliber.

Since you're starting your build from scratch, go with a 6.5 creedmoor. You can get factory ammo for it and awesome ballistics. A 26" barrel will actually provide you a bit more meaningful velocity edge for a 6.5mm caliber. </div></div>
dont you mean you want a faster twist to stablize lighter bullets? IE a 1:12 and up?

 

[strike33]

Re: Surgeons action, which twist rate and barrel size

Faster would be a lower number, twist rate corresponds to 1 complete revolution in the given inches. A 1:12 twist takes 12 inches for 1 complete revolution. a 1:10 does this is 10 inches making it a faster twist rate

 

[Ghettomedic]

Re: Surgeons action, which twist rate and barrel size

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For a DBM, it's hard to beat Surgeon. If I were in your shoes, I'd take a 20" standard palma with a 1:10" twist. Good mix between portability and velocity. It won't be a boat anchor either.

Let me repeat: get a 1:10" twist and plan on using 155 Scenars, 175 SMKs, or 178 AMAXs. You'll be happy with the results. </div></div>

Yeah that seems to were I have my heart set at too, I was looking online and alot of the .308 bullets are from 150grain-180grain.
The gun is going to be a range queen shot from proan and bench style.
I know you had said a 20inch barrel but I was looking at krieger #17 varmint barrel. The guy over the phone stated they start at a length of 26inch and with a brake im looking at 28inch total.

I know the length twist depends on the distance you will be shooting. In reality I dont see myself going past 600 yards.
So I need a set up that will be stupid accurate ( yes i know the shooter, ammo, glass, stock etc etc has a say in it to) from 100-yards to 600yard, but the capability beyond 600 yards if i find the space and IF i ever get that good

 

[JB02]

Re: Surgeons action, which twist rate and barrel size

1/12 twist is slower than a 1/10...you twist every 10" vice every 12". Do me a favor and get the idea of a shooting a tactical .308 rifle with a 1/12 twist barrel out of your head.

308 AI mags (ie your badger M5 bottom metal) will work with any short action cartridge that has a .308 bolt face. the most common of these are .308 win, 260 rem, 7mm-08 rem, 284 win (works better in a long action, but technically a short action), 6.5mm Creedmoor, 6.5x47 lapua, 243 winchester and the list goes on.

 

[ZLBubba]

Re: Surgeons action, which twist rate and barrel size

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EMS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For a DBM, it's hard to beat Surgeon. If I were in your shoes, I'd take a 20" standard palma with a 1:10" twist. Good mix between portability and velocity. It won't be a boat anchor either.

Let me repeat: get a 1:10" twist and plan on using 155 Scenars, 175 SMKs, or 178 AMAXs. You'll be happy with the results. </div></div>

Yeah that seems to were I have my heart set at too, I was looking online and alot of the .308 bullets are from 150grain-180grain.
The gun is going to be a range queen shot from proan and bench style.
I know you had said a 20inch barrel but I was looking at krieger #17 varmint barrel. The guy over the phone stated they start at a length of 26inch and with a brake im looking at 28inch total.

I know the length twist depends on the distance you will be shooting. In reality I dont see myself going past 600 yards.
So I need a set up that will be stupid accurate ( yes i know the shooter, ammo, glass, stock etc etc has a say in it to) from 100-yards to 600yard, but the capability beyond 600 yards if i find the space and IF i ever get that good </div></div>

If you're only shooting 600 yards max, then you don't need a long barrel. If you were shooting 1k, then maybe (though I don't run long barrels on any 308s).

Realize that you can get any barrel contour cut to any length, so a heavy varmint can be cut down to 16.5" if that's what you want. Have you contacted the smith to chamber your barrel yet? I feel like you'd really benefit from having a lengthy discussion with one of the many excellent smiths on this site about what specs will best fit your needs.

 

[JB02]

Re: Surgeons action, which twist rate and barrel size

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I feel like you'd really benefit from having a lengthy discussion with one of the many excellent smiths on this site about what specs will best fit your needs.</div></div> Exactly

 

[Ghettomedic]

Re: Surgeons action, which twist rate and barrel size

That isn't bad advise ethier
im new to the site how would I contact them regarding this?
thanks

 

[JB02]

Re: Surgeons action, which twist rate and barrel size

If you already have a Surgeon action give the following gunsmiths a call:

http://www.longriflesinc.com/

http://www.louisianaprecisionrifles.com/

http://www.gradousrifles.com/

http://shortactioncustoms.com/

http://accurateordnance.com/