Swat snipers-average distance to target

[pawprint2]

I was just reading an interesting article from POLICE magazine, the average 70 yard to target myth has been put to death, the study is very interesting, here is an excerpt:
Distance to Target

The ASA study, which is titled “Police Sniper Utilization Report 2005,” revealed that contrary to the old 70-yard myth, the average range at which police snipers engage suspects is actually 51 yards.

While at first the 19-yard discrepancy doesn’t seem significant, it should be noted that this is almost a 30-percent difference.

Does this mean that police sniper training should be modified to match this new reality? Perhaps. One thing that the survey clearly reveals is that police snipers often engage at much closer distances than SWAT trainers believe.

For example, the ASA report documents one sniper engagement at a distance of five yards. At first glance, this may seem like an “easy” task for a sniper trained to shoot at targets at much greater range. However, while distance to the target was not a great concern with this shot, the conditions presented many challenges for the sniper.

The ASA report says, “This shot was taken indoors in a hostage situation. The sniper was forced to use a teammate as a standing support to make a shot on a very elusive and fleeing target.” If that wasn’t difficult enough, the shot had to be taken very quickly in low light.

There is much dispute as to the longest range at which a police sniper has engaged a suspect. The ASA study documents a hostage incident in which a sniper from the Pennsylvania State Police fired on a suspect from 187 yards.

There is also anecdotal evidence of police snipers shooting at suspects from as much as 400 yards. However, most of these cannot be confirmed or they are so exceptional in nature that they can only loosely be defined as SWAT sniper engagements

Thankfully the SWAT snipers almost never have to shoot-that is a good thing. Of the 200,000 times SWAT was called out, across the US, only 172 suspects were shot and killed by SWAT. When you stop and think about it, out of 200,000 times-the sight of a SWAT team alone must have caused 99%+ of the bad guys just to give up! I hope we get more swat teams.

 

[kjoens]

At the Sniper week conference in 2012 a police sniper from TX spoke about one of their guys engaging a suspect from around 600. They hadn't trained at that distance and obviously he missed. The situation was a standoff that lasted a few days. That being said if you use a rifle for work you should be familiar with it at any distance, knowing the limitations of the rifle and especially the limitations of yourself.
KJ

 

[pawprint2]

Interesting post, when the sniper from Texas spoke about the 600 yard engagement, did he say they made the shot and killed the bad guy?

 

[sierracharlie338]

Gotta put in the work to get the results indeed.


Sierracharlie out....

 

[Sniper Uncle]

At the Sniper week conference in 2012 a police sniper from TX spoke about one of their guys engaging a suspect from around 600.

They hadn't trained at that distance and obviously he missed.

The situation was a standoff that lasted a few days. That being said if you use a rifle for work you should be familiar with it at any distance, knowing the limitations of the rifle and especially the limitations of yourself.
KJ

Interesting post, when the sniper from Texas spoke about the 600 yard engagement, did he say they made the shot and killed the bad guy?

KJ said they missed....

 

[sierracharlie338]

Interesting post, when the sniper from Texas spoke about the 600 yard engagement, did he say they made the shot and killed the bad guy?

No he missed


Sierracharlie out....

 

[pawprint2]

If he had made the shot, it would be one of the, if not the longest SWAT sniper shot in history! From what I've read, 95% of all SWAT sniper action takes place in night, or low light conditions, 600 yard nighttime requires some NV equipment and some nighttime training, he would have had a record-to bad he missed.

 

[Sharpsman]

Seems as I recall once upon a time when the entire SWAT team from I think Houston, Texas showed up at an NRA HP match at Ft. Polk, La. After doing an excellent job of shooting up the 2x4's that held the targets with their SWAT rifles....they got their azzes 'waxed' by two 15 year old females shooting M-14s!! We all got good laughs at that! It was so bad a buddy of mine told the leader of that bunch that if he was ever in a hostage situation.....DON'T RESCUE ME!!

 

[Lowlight]

I thought the VA State Police made a shot at 541 yards...

Years ago during the SHC we repeated the 11ft shot that was taken in the trailer on a hostage taker. People were stymied, especially when I hinted to some people to use their 1200 yard dope. We did it at night, with a cop car behind them with all the lights on. The target was a 1/4" dot.

 

[remington patriot]

Gotta put in the work to get the results indeed.


Sierracharlie out....

Very true. It is best to train out to as far as you can so you know your dopes just in case you get an extended range opportunity. On the flip side, it is wise to train up close with multiple lighting scenarios so you can know your hold overs without adjusting. If night vision is not available an illuminated reticle may assist. And having multiple options as a rest (using a partner) is a valuable tool to have.

 

[kjoens]

The officer that took the shot was shot by the bad guy. Tyler Texas is where the incident occurred. (I believe, there were two speakers from Texas. Great guys by the way. ). It ended with the guy giving up 2-3 days later. My thing is that if you take on the responsibility, you better damn well know your equipment and yourself.

As far as the training difference between 50 and 70 yards, to me there is none. It's twenty yards.
KJ

 

[pawprint2]

There is no doubt one should train for what ever they are going to come up against. But with a budget and common sense, if 95%-based on national statistics, your shots are in low light or at night, and 90%+ of the time your shots are within 100 yards, it seems to me, the majority of training should be in low light or night time environments at targets at or below 100 yards. Does this mean the SWAT snipers shouldn't be shooting a longer distances? Hell no, I believe the majority of anyone's training, should be based on what they are likely to encounter, be it a SWAT team, or any other specialty. In todays world, where budgets are very tight, in fact some cities are going broke, the long range daytime rounds would be where I'd cut first, the nighttime 100 yard or less rounds would be my last cut-doing the most with the budget at hand.

 

[triceratops3]

I thought the VA State Police made a shot at 541 yards...

Years ago during the SHC we repeated the 11ft shot that was taken in the trailer on a hostage taker. People were stymied, especially when I hinted to some people to use their 1200 yard dope. We did it at night, with a cop car behind them with all the lights on. The target was a 1/4" dot.

Lowlight, that's actually very interesting. I just checked the estimated correction using the shooter app and it was within 1/2 moa. 36.6 for 4 yards vs 37.1 for 1200.

 

[pawprint2]

Seems as I recall once upon a time when the entire SWAT team from I think Houston, Texas showed up at an NRA HP match at Ft. Polk, La. After doing an excellent job of shooting up the 2x4's that held the targets with their SWAT rifles....they got their azzes 'waxed' by two 15 year old females shooting M-14s!! We all got good laughs at that! It was so bad a buddy of mine told the leader of that bunch that if he was ever in a hostage situation.....DON'T RESCUE ME!!

Is this true? It seem like a joke, or a story that just got started and has grown over the years. If it isn't a joke, someone should have some explaining to do to those that put the tax payers money to budgets-how was all that practice time, ammo, and weapons money spent?

 

[Mike_Honcho]

Kjoens - can you expand on this incident (better yet post a source to read about it in detail), upon you initial description of events "took a 600 yrd shot, but obviously missed" - which begs the question: under what circumstances could LE reasonably engage at an extreme distance and allow for a miss. However, in the post above it is sou ding more like this was an act of self defense. If that was the case, how did that all unfold?




TIA

 

[pawprint2]

The officer that took the shot was shot by the bad guy. Tyler Texas is where the incident occurred. (I believe, there were two speakers from Texas. Great guys by the way. ). It ended with the guy giving up 2-3 days later. My thing is that if you take on the responsibility, you better damn well know your equipment and yourself.

As far as the training difference between 50 and 70 yards, to me there is none. It's twenty yards.
I
KJ

I just did a search on SWAT team standoff Tyler Texas-they (the Tyler PD) have a lot of standoffs, it almost seems as if it's the home of police standoffs, look it up, I think everyone will be surprised at just how many police standoffs happen in or around Tyler Texas-must be something in the TEXMEX down there, I love TexMex but had better lay off when in Tyler!!

 

[Mike_Honcho]

Is this true? It seem like a joke, or a story that just got started and has grown over the years. If it isn't a joke, someone should have some explaining to do to those that put the tax payers money to budgets-how was all that practice time, ammo, and weapons money spent?

Joke or not I have spoken several LE long gunners over the years and they have all said that they have no interest in showing up at High Power / F Class matches b/c there is no upside for them. It isn't what they train for, and if they do poorly it reverberates throughout the community. Same as when good IPSC / IDPA shooters watch patrol folks shoot quals - most of them have a low skill level, but that isn't really the basis of their job. I think many shooters get that (in time).

LE long gunners are likely good at what they do; however what they do has nothing to do with LR match shooting.

 

[pawprint2]

I have read-on this very board as a matter of a fact-various SWAT team members discussing their training, how much and how far, 300-600-1000 yards come up, lot of round many times a year. This may not be a formal NRA Highpower format, but the 300-600 sounds vaguely familiar. I really hope a couple of girls with M14s didn't embarrass a bunch of police snipers shooting high-end bolt guns. I'm not so sure that LE snipers do not have anything in common with LR match shooters. The X ring in HP matches is 1MOA, I'm guessing, but I hope that or less is the LE sniper requirement. Are you speaking to the accuracy requirements? I'm really sure this has to be some kind of joke, I just don't think something like this could happen.

 

[kjoens]

He was an anti gov survivalist. It wasn't a hostage shot by no means. So ill it best I can remember just know this is from memory. Officers responded to the suspects house where they took fire. A responding detective/sniper responded taking up a position on top of a large white tank of some sort. The PD sniper just wanting to end the situation set up with another sniper. Not thinking that the shirt he was wearing was red. They had only trained out to 300 yards. He ranged it at 6 then doubled his dope for 300. After taking a shot and missing the bad guy turned and fired hitting the police sniper. ( he lived) The offcer took the shot because his guys were taking fire, he did the best he could with what he had at the time. by the time it was over there multiple local, state and federal agencies were present, which is whole problem in itself. (Anyone in law enforcement knows what I'm talking about)

The suspect had firing positions around his property that he could move between without being seen. His compound was extremely well laid out for defensive purposes. He was able to rain accurate on responding units trying to take up positions. It wended with the suspect giving up.

I took away several lessons from the conference.
- know there are people out there that hate us and train just as hard or harder than we do.
- know your equipment
- don't underestimate the "crazy guy in town"
- train like your life depends on it-because it does.
I try and shoot at all distance, twenty five yards being the closest. I have to say that I have never tried to shoot from 5-10 yards. But I will soon.

Hope that's what you were looking for. Sorry I don't have a link to the incident. The guys at ASA may have it, D. Bartlett is a good guy very knowledgable. Take a class from him if you ever get the chance. I've shot his comps for the last few years good guys.

KJ

 

[XL Mammal]

I really hope a couple of girls with M14s didn't embarrass a bunch of police snipers shooting high-end bolt guns.

That wouldn't surprise me. Fact is, they're professional police officers, not professional shooters. I'd guess those 14-year-old girls spent a lot more time behind their equipment than the officers. There's a whole lot of talent in the recreational/competitive shooter pool.

 

[Whit]

I think that is not true. I think police snipers would learn a lot about there weapon capabilities and there capabilities if they shot at comps. Have them shoot tactical/sniper comps. I think it's a image thing and don't want there egos hurt. Tell me, u don't think u wouldn't learn anything if u shot comps with someone like let's say Frank? Yea right

 

[kjoens]

I have never had a problem being embarrassed in comps. I always learned the most from losing. Anytime spent behind the rifle under stress is good training. Not all police snipers are die hard shooters. Competition shooters do it because that's their sport and they love it. They also tend to have the best equipment, where LE shoot the standard 08 they're given. Just happens that I enjoy shooting comps and I do it for work. Now all I have to do is win a PRS match with my 308. Lol that comment may be for another thread "what the pros use eh".

The other problem is the cost in sending guys to comps. I do it but I also pay for it myself.

KJ

 

[SPDSNYPR]

The ASA studies are not anything new. Not all agencies participate in the study, but it is still very good info. I do know a letter agency sniper who 10-ringed someone at just over 210. I know a couple of others who have made shots well under 50.

Averages really don't mean anything. Usually, the bad guy makes the majority of the decisions on how far the shot is going to be. You train for what you can train for. We shoot from 25 out to 600 on qual courses, but the majority being 100 or less. We have gone closer, but rarely.

 

[18Echo]

Phoenix PD patrolman made a 300 yard hit on a guy out in the desert a few years ago. He was just a regular patrol guy with an AR, iron sights no optic, got picked up by the air unit and flown out to where this guy was not sure what the original call details were but the guy started shooting at the air unit and the patrol guy shot him.

 

[taliv]

For example, the ASA report documents one sniper engagement at a distance of five yards. At first glance, this may seem like an “easy” task for a sniper trained to shoot at targets at much greater range. However, while distance to the target was not a great concern with this shot, the conditions presented many challenges for the sniper.

The ASA report says, “This shot was taken indoors in a hostage situation. The sniper was forced to use a teammate as a standing support to make a shot on a very elusive and fleeing target.” If that wasn’t difficult enough, the shot had to be taken very quickly in low light.

given the Tueller drill is based on 1.5 sec for 7 yards. if the "target" was "very elusive and fleeing" when the shot was taken at only 5 yards... kinda makes you wonder where he was when the 'sniper' set up and decided to take the shot?

I really hope a couple of girls with M14s didn't embarrass a bunch of police snipers shooting high-end bolt guns.

5, maybe 6 departments in the country excluded, i would put money on the girls vs police snipers any day. not just HP/f-class but any precision shooting. I just don't think they train much at all. As was said above, the shooting isn't really much of their job. Police snipers using high-end bolt guns are also pretty rare. Box stock 700p and a VX3 or MK4 would prob describe 80% of police setups.

 

[MacM11]

It's been accepted knowledge of the close range, sometimes marginal ability of police snipers. In my second stint at Rifles Only, we had a pair of police SWAT snipers from San Antonio, TX train with us. These guys did very well, to include their communication skills, teamwork and marksmanship.
I wouldn't want these 'police snipers' shooting at me.

 

[kjoens]

Averages really don't mean anything. Usually, the bad guy makes the majority of the decisions on how far the shot is going to be. You train for what you can train for. We shoot from 25 out to 600 on qual courses, but the majority being 100 or less. We have gone closer, but rarely.



True
KJ

 

[John1911.com]

I think the "averages" even applied to LE marksmen skill-set are a bit open to interpretation. Comparing an agency that is truly urban to an agency that is truly rural is like comparing apples and Model T Fords. That's a wide range of environments. And what agency truly is "either"? None. With that said, I don't know of ANY teams that aren't training for both. And that isn't even looking at teams that operate in the realm of suburbia. Where they get a mix of both in an average mile.

I think the assumption that LE Marksmen are training for only 50-100 is a mistake. I don't know of any that aren't looking for dope all year in all kinds of conditions. Also on multiple platforms depending on the application.

And let us not forget, the shooting is only a part of the marksman's tool kit. There's all the PT, field craft, recon, communications, medical, position shooting, tactics, ability to collapse in and be part of an assault element at a moments notice (read do other team member's jobs), etc, etc, etc.

In the end, I am a big believer in competition. If a 15 year old girl smoked a SWAT guy in competition, kudos to her and goat tag on him. Nothing is a better motivator than a big slice of humble pie. I routinely do that same thing in trainings and competitions. I may not be near that top of the field skill wise, but I find somebody who's ass I'm trying to kick. Even if it's keeping out of last place.

But I think sometimes the civilians are getting a little fanciful if they think full-prone, loaded bi-pods, and itty-bitty groups have much to do with the real world marksman. It don't. It's a skills drill. A starting point. Nothing more.

TTR

 

[Sharpsman]

Is this true? It seem like a joke, or a story that just got started and has grown over the years. If it isn't a joke, someone should have some explaining to do to those that put the tax payers money to budgets-how was all that practice time, ammo, and weapons money spent?

It ain't a joke Dude! I was there!! I may be wrong on it being the Houston PD but that's the only error possibly! Been a long time!

 

[Sharpsman]

I think that is not true. I think police snipers would learn a lot about there weapon capabilities and there capabilities if they shot at comps. Have them shoot tactical/sniper comps. I think it's a image thing and don't want there egos hurt. Tell me, u don't think u wouldn't learn anything if u shot comps with someone like let's say Frank? Yea right

Well....you're thinking wrong!! These guys were shooting Colt Sporter M15 type rifles .223 caliber! Been a while back also!

 

[pawprint2]

It ain't a joke Dude! I was there!! I may be wrong on it being the Houston PD but that's the only error possibly! Been a long time!

I stand 100% publically corrected, I guess I didn't want it to be true to the point of refusing to believe it. Those 15 year old girls could hardly be called "grizzled veterans", I guess there are none so blind as those that will not see-today I was one of the blind.
I hope the tax payers that pay for this group's salaries/ammo/weapons/insurance/travel etc. are pissed! Now, if their town is flush with funds, and are having trouble figuring out where to spend it, what the hell. If on the other hand, the towns budget and the police budget are/were "under the gun" as most budgetary matters are in govt these days. I'd want to see who was prioritizing the spending, and who was checking up on the spending-in other words-seeing that we get what we pay for! The only good that could come out of this, is those young ladies (the two 15 year old girls) will have a great shooting story for the rest of their lives!

 

[kjoens]

What they didn't tell you was the girls last names were Tubb. Lol

KJ

 

[Whit]

Well....you're thinking wrong!! These guys were shooting Colt Sporter M15 type rifles .223 caliber! Been a while back also!

They would still learn something. Did they shoot open sight or optic? I shot some comps with people shooting stock AR's open sight. In the Marines we shot M16 (which is 5.56= 223 rem)open sight out to 500yds and have to qual at that range.

My point is that they can learn at comps that can make them better shooters. I shoot comps to learn and to have fun doing it. some are more challenging then others. I am not talking about Bench rest or F-Class, I am talking about Tactical/sniper matches. You dont have to do all the expensive matches. I do some thats $20 and $50 matches.

 

[FLIGHT762]

Averages really don't mean anything. Usually, the bad guy makes the majority of the decisions on how far the shot is going to be. You train for what you can train for. We shoot from 25 out to 600 on qual courses, but the majority being 100 or less. We have gone closer, but rarely.
TrueKJ

Very true. I spent over 2 -1/2 decades on an urban team. As a counter sniper, my longest deployment was 120 yards. The shortest, about 20 yards. As Kjoens said, you should train what you can train for. As an ATL, I fought tooth and nail with tactical SWAT Commanders to allow us to train over 200 yards since they would never allow such a long shot. These were SWAT tactical commanders with no practical knowledge of the real World and especially nothing about the capabilities of their Sniper team.

In the last few years, we had a knowledgeable Sniper Command staff that convinced the overall tactical Commanders to allow us to do our own thing. We have been able to shoot and to dope the rifles out to 600 yards. Doing so allowed the shooters to understand ballistics, come ups, doping the wind, shooting at moving targets and importantly, a current Dope Book.

While the team is an urban setting team, they will likely never have to take a shot over 100 yards. Training out to 600 yards gives the operators confidence in their equipment and their abilities. I just believe you should train for your worst case senario.

 

[spswatip]

Frank: That's an awesome comp stage (11 feet) to have guys do. Nice to see. We routinely shoot at very short distances and train to dial up for those distances if we have the time as it can be very important.

Our qual includes a standing 10 yard head shot starting at the low ready w/ our bolt guns (no dialing on that one)

ASA's statistics include shots utilizing a "long gun" employed by a police sniper. Shotguns are included in some instances, at least one with buckshot used and one with a slug being used. Irons, aimpoints, etc. are also included if they fit the criteria previously mentioned. I don't know for sure as I looked and didn't see the specific details of the 5 yard indoor shot but I would think a 5 yard shot on a elusive/fleeting hostage taker wasn't taken with a magnified optic, but heck it may have been.

Kjones nailed it, and I agree. I have shot multiple comps, as they provide good training points, networking, and most of all stress inoculation. Nothing like representing your department as a professional shooter against civilians. You really don't want to look bad and you can feel the eyes on you and your scores. So it's a good opportunity to work on your skills and your stress management at the same time. I often wonder why more swat guys don't shoot in comps. In fact it was at a comp where I learned the value of dialing up for close in shots, and it was a valuable lesson to be learned and we train on it regularly now. We are also fortunate enough to get to train out to 1000+, and like FLIGHT762 says it increases our confidence in our skills and equipment. We are also in an area where long shots are definitely a possibility.

As of 2009's report 514 yards was the longest confirmed hit, the suspect was wounded and lived. That was in the region which includes Virginia, which is what Frank is probably referring to.

As for 95% of the shots being taken at night, that isn't correct. There are more LE sniper shots taken during the day than at night. With the 09 stats only about 44% of the LE snipers shots are taken at the hours commonly referred to as being low light or night. And a proposed 600 yard shot with night vision would make it very difficult to positively identify someone, let alone a specific suspect and also be able to articulate they were a threat to yourself or others. I am not familiar with the incident Kjones referenced and it didn't say in his post but I assume it was daylight if the badguy keyed in on the LE shooter's red shirt.

Now I am reminded to ask my dept. again to get me the 2011 and now the 2013 report...

 

[Arbiter]

"Competition" can refer to F-Class or NRA Hi-Power...but it can also refer to the PRS or Sniperweek. Those who make the mistake of imagining it to refer to the former category and disdain it on that basis are badly underestimating what comps can entail. There are plenty of LE snipers still out there who missed the memo on training outside of a square range at noon.

 

[Sharpsman]

What they didn't tell you was the girls last names were Tubb. Lol

KJ

No...not Tubb...but that would fit! They were a couple of kids that had come up through the Junior Rifle Program sponsored by the Louisiana Shooting Association. They shot in the Service Rifle category and IIRC they had made a couple of trips to Camp Perry to the National Matches with the Junior Team that a couple of adults who worked with that program which was sponsored by the LSA took to the nationals each August. Back in the day when most folks still knew how to use iron sights! Today....that's almost a 'lost art' because most of the kids coming up these days know nothing but scope sights!! I'd best stop right here because if I go any farther....I'm gonna pizz off a lot of folks!!

 

[SPDSNYPR]

I think that is not true. I think police snipers would learn a lot about there weapon capabilities and there capabilities if they shot at comps. Have them shoot tactical/sniper comps. I think it's a image thing and don't want there egos hurt. Tell me, u don't think u wouldn't learn anything if u shot comps with someone like let's say Frank? Yea right

The only matches close to where I work are across-the-course highpower, and f-class. For the snipers on our team, the high power would be great, but the way our rifles are set up would be no-go (optics). F-class I think would be good, and I've shot a few matches just for trigger time. But they're on sundays in the AM. Just about every sniper we have works saturday either evenings (till 0230) or nights (till 0730). I'm the only one who could make it unless they took vacation.

I understand we wouldn't win anything. I've had my ass kicked at highpower matches by 14-year olds (including Tubbs' son many years ago at a local match), and never have kicked ass and taken names at f-class. But they are a lot of fun. I never went to try to win. I went to shoot and learn. Lots of cops - most in fact - work odd shifts including evenings, nights, and weekends. I'd say it has more to do with schedules than egos.

 

[persistant7500]

if those 2 girls were competitors in cmp or nra junior comps they most likely are averaging 3-5 hundred shots per week. I know that my varsity shooters for cmp air rifle shoot a minimum of 1 tin per week,(500 shots). The kids who are winning precision class comps avg about 25% more than that.

 

[Graham]

The original study quoted by the OP was from 2005. Part of the reason for the study was to help the ASA bring some uniformity of standards to the job. But the requirements of a small urban department will be different from that of a large rural one, So training should be for the purpose of getting good at the job, not for an average engagement range that doesn't exist and won't matter anyway. Shooting is not sniping, but riflery is a transferable skill. As for the majority of shots being taken at night, I have not heard of that. For a thread to counter speculation there sure is a lot of speculation going on here.

 

[Awesymoto]

Graham sent you a PM... lmk if it worked it is not showing in my sent box.

 

[Lateo1]

My first real post:

As a relatively inexperiencd 'ex'-STA sniper with a forward artillery patrol, I will be the first to say that a great many recreational shooters have bettered me in competitions.

They had incredible abilities to judge windage, cosine and ballistics indicators

I however could lie in a Iraqi latrine ditch for two days and still carry out the tasks assigned to me or my buddie.

A sniper is the sum of his or her parts - not solely the myopic 'one-shot one-kill' mythos perported by Hollywood and shooting forums.

Having worked with police teams I humbly testify to their overly complicated mission planning and the extraneous legal bullshit, that would otherwise paralyse the average civilian and military rifleman working under pressure.

 

[Lateo1]

I think what I'm trying to day is: I wouldn't have the balls to perform in today's modern police forces- and its far too easy to judge those who do.

 

[Hairball]

Our SED range for our LE guys is only 100 yards long. They put on a display last week and showed off their 700, Barrett M99 and a crossbow (yes I said crossbow, had to take a pic of that one). One thing to take into account is that most larger departments are the only ones to support full-time SED teams and large departments equal large cities which equates to short ranges between streets and buildings. It is hard enough to find a range in San Diego county to get passed 300 yards let alone have LE engage someone at long distance.

 

[pawprint2]

The original study quoted by the OP was from 2005. Part of the reason for the study was to help the ASA bring some uniformity of standards to the job. But the requirements of a small urban department will be different from that of a large rural one, So training should be for the purpose of getting good at the job, not for an average engagement range that doesn't exist and won't matter anyway. Shooting is not sniping, but riflery is a transferable skill. As for the majority of shots being taken at night, I have not heard of that. For a thread to counter speculation there sure is a lot of speculation going on here.

Regarding my post, where did I get the 95% of SWAT snipers shots being taken in lowlight/night? ASA report, here is a portion of the report:
Training Implications

ASA’s survey reveals that many police sniper training programs and training exercises should be modified to prepare officers for the reality of sniper operations.

Training that focuses on the theoretical average distance of 70 yards needs to be changed to incorporate both closer and more distant targets. Training should also include shots at point-blank range and at distances of more than 100 yards. It’s also imperative that snipers receive more training shooting at moving targets.

More important than the distance of the targets shot in training is the environment of the training. The ASA survey shows that more than 95 percent of SWAT sniper engagements occur in lowlight conditions after nightfall. Snipers should train in these conditions. Also, each agency should make every effort to equip its snipers with night vision optics.
-----------I believe this is good, sound advice, train in the conditions you are most likely to encounter/ as they will most likely be night time-they should be supplied with and train with NVG.

 

[Graham]

I saw that. All I can say is: Not around here. Keep in mind that statistics are just that, and ASA is using theirs to help educate administrators. We ask for stuff based on statistics, but we don't train based on them, especially when they may or may not apply at any given point in time.

 

[The Colonel]

I believe this is the incident in Texas that was described earlier. I sat in a similar debriefing from one of the Odessa Snipers. There's a good write-up in one of the tactical publications (ntoa I believe) of the entire incident, but I couldn't find it. Here's what I found that goes into the LEO sniping portion, but even this story is lacking in details that were provided during the debrief. The whole incident sounded like it was an administrative cluster-fuck.

McNeill back on duty - Odessa American: Local News

 

[spswatip]

Regarding my post, where did I get the 95% of SWAT snipers shots being taken in lowlight/night? ASA report, here is a portion of the report:
Training Implications

ASA’s survey reveals that many police sniper training programs and training exercises should be modified to prepare officers for the reality of sniper operations.

Training that focuses on the theoretical average distance of 70 yards needs to be changed to incorporate both closer and more distant targets. Training should also include shots at point-blank range and at distances of more than 100 yards. It’s also imperative that snipers receive more training shooting at moving targets.

More important than the distance of the targets shot in training is the environment of the training. The ASA survey shows that more than 95 percent of SWAT sniper engagements occur in lowlight conditions after nightfall. Snipers should train in these conditions. Also, each agency should make every effort to equip its snipers with night vision optics.
-----------I believe this is good, sound advice, train in the conditions you are most likely to encounter/ as they will most likely be night time-they should be supplied with and train with NVG.

Not trying to be a jerk but you are still mistaken on the statistics you are quoting. The ASA survey shows that 45% of swat sniper engagements occur in lowlight conditions. Not 95%. It does say that 95% of swat sniper shots were from 0 to 100 yards. Maybe that is where you are getting the percentages mixed up. Maybe it is the article you are reading, maybe they are misquoting the report. I searched the internet and found this excerpt written by Derrick Bartlett, the president of ASA. If you scroll down to paragraph 5 under "Highlights" you will see it is 45% taken in low light. Then scroll down to paragraph 10 in the same section you will see 95% from between 0 and 100.

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=3879

But I am holding the 2009 report, and the low light stats are 45%, not 95%. And it didn't change 50% from 2005 to 2009. In fact the link I just provided was a summary of the 2005 report. Like I said, not trying to be a jerk, just letting you know the correct stats.

As far as NV is concerned, I agree with you in that more need to be issued and trained on them for that worst case scenario...however only 1% of swat sniper engagements involve the use of NV (as of the 2009 report), and that is for very good reasons.

 

[kjoens]

Colonel
I spoke about the incident in texas earlier. Your right it was in Odessa. Like I said earlier their were two speakers from Texas. And I couldn't remember exactly where it took place. I realized something while following this post, I never shoot at night. We don't have NV, but I can always utilize white light. By the time we show up its usually lit up like a Christmas tree.

I believe the ASAs intent is to inform us about the different scene rios that have taken place in the past so we can better prepare ourselves for future encounters. To look at the different problems that have been faced and learn from either mistakes or successes. Regardless of when or how far the incidents took place train the best we can with what we have available for today.

KJ

 

[spswatip]

I agree with KJ. ASA's stats and information are invaluable in my opinion, and should be used to create/base at least some of every dept's LE sniper training on. I am glad my Dept has bought the reports in the past and hope they continue to get them when they are available. I appreciate how they also throw in specific case studies/lessons learned, both positive and negative.