Can someone explain the differences, advantages and disadvantages between the two in a clip on rifle sight?
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Night Vision SWIR vs LWIR
- Thread starter Jim Hammer
- Start date
Think of SWIR more like Night Vision. You need supplemental illumination in the 1550nm wavelength when it gets dark. But you can see through glass, fog, smoke, etc almost like it’s not there.
It’s not “really” thermal like we think of MWIR and LWIR thermal. It kinda straddles the gap between standard i2 NV and “real” thermal in the traditional sense.
It’s just a different capability that the others can’t do, but not really super useful to we civvies outside of a handful of specific tasks.
ETA: SWIR also works great during the day. It’s used a fair bit during forest fires out West when the smoke obscures natural vision.
It’s not “really” thermal like we think of MWIR and LWIR thermal. It kinda straddles the gap between standard i2 NV and “real” thermal in the traditional sense.
It’s just a different capability that the others can’t do, but not really super useful to we civvies outside of a handful of specific tasks.
ETA: SWIR also works great during the day. It’s used a fair bit during forest fires out West when the smoke obscures natural vision.
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I can't speak to swir vs lwir, but we have a swir sensor we use at work when hunting baddies and it works exceptionally well.
The contrast it gives and ability to see through atmospherics/shadows/night time is vastly superior to basic EO/IR. I had no idea SWIR clipons existed, I have to imagine anyone with one would be an apex predator.
The contrast it gives and ability to see through atmospherics/shadows/night time is vastly superior to basic EO/IR. I had no idea SWIR clipons existed, I have to imagine anyone with one would be an apex predator.
SWIR is the primary seek and destroy sensor on most ISR ground support drones, too. It’s a big plus that friendlies can use 1550nm strobes that can’t be detected with standard NODs.
Civvies can actually buy SWIR clip-ons.
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SWIR has some great features one of the less enjoyable features is price which is high. I tried to get one of the IR imaging houses into making SWIR imagers for field work and they declined as the numbers we needed was not enough to drive a new design. At the time they made SWIR imaging systems for lab use, and had much of the FLIR market.
Here is an imaging technology that would provide some coverage in the SWIR band if they can bring it out of the lab into working units, and once up and running the imagers would probably be much less than current SWIR state of the art.
Here is an imaging technology that would provide some coverage in the SWIR band if they can bring it out of the lab into working units, and once up and running the imagers would probably be much less than current SWIR state of the art.
If I recall correctly, the Brolis unit has a long range 1550 illuminator built in and a bunch of other insane features.
Saw a “Warrior HWH” SWIR thingy in a FB group some time ago, you could smell the agents luring behind all the way through FB’s servers...
but it got me wondering, how good has the swir tech become in recent years?
I know the platform stuff is bonkers, but the handheld stuff?
but it got me wondering, how good has the swir tech become in recent years?
I know the platform stuff is bonkers, but the handheld stuff?
Another great feature of 1500 nm illuminators, designators, LRF, etc is that the human eye filters out out 1500 nm much better than other bands commonly used. The eye safe power of 1500 nm is much greater than that of 805 nm at the same ranges, so the range of 1500 nm can be longer and still eyesafe. I have always been a little antsy when class IV illuminators in 805 range are brought out, reflections in the near range can easily cause eye damage unless correct eye protection is used.
Products For Image Sensing In The SWIR | Sensors Unlimited
Sensors Unlimited, Inc. produces NIR and SWIR cameras and arrays - all based on InGaAs imaging technology - that see beyond the visible wavelength spectrum.
SPS (SWIR Pocket Scope)
Target Accuracy with Enhanced Situational Awareness
The compact SPS is a field-ready Short Wave Infrared (SWIR) viewer providing high resolution video during day and nighttime operations.
- Specifications
- Compact
6.0 x 2.6 x 3.0 inches (L x W x H) with 25 mm lens - Lightweight
1 pound - Modular
Interchangeable lens options - Enduring
> 2 hours continuous operation at room temperature with 2 CR123A batteries - Sensitive
Low light imaging and optimal detection of NIR pointers, 1.06 μm laser designators and 1.55 μm eye-safe laser rangefinders in day and night - Detailed
640 x 500 resolution - Rugged
MIL-STD-810G compliant design for temperature, transportability, immersion, sand, altitude, dust, and humidity - Versatile
Helmet and rail mountable, adjustable reticle, digital zoom, media recording, compatible with other Sensors Unlimited lenses
maybe we will all live long enough to see these at Wallmarts
I'm not sure I will ever be nice enough to get one of these for Christmas, maybe I'll put myself up for adoption.
SWIR uses a sensor, just like LWIR, but detects short-wavelength IR versus long-wavelength. It uses a display screen and is not a passthrough like NV. The biggest advantage is that it is more “contrasty” than NV and can see right through smoke, fog and most other obscurants.
It combines some of the advantages of both NV and thermal, and can see through atmospherics. The downside is that it requires supplemental illumination when it gets really dark, like NV, but in the ~1500nm range (undetectable by NV).
Products For Image Sensing In The SWIR | Sensors Unlimited
Sensors Unlimited, Inc. produces NIR and SWIR cameras and arrays - all based on InGaAs imaging technology - that see beyond the visible wavelength spectrum.www.sensorsinc.com
SPS (SWIR Pocket Scope)
Target Accuracy with Enhanced Situational Awareness
The compact SPS is a field-ready Short Wave Infrared (SWIR) viewer providing high resolution video during day and nighttime operations.
From one of the pros in the business (Sensors Unlimited). I am surprised these are ITAR free, I wonder who manufactures the imager inside the "box".
ITAR regs were put in place inappropriately on firearm stuff but are very important on technology that could move someone forward on night vision. I just thought I would add that given the controversy that ITAR has caused in the last 7 or so years.
Here is something I found on DSNVG
"ITT Exelis makes the Dual Sensor Night Vision Goggle (DSNVG). It is exceedingly cool. You can use it as a Gen 3 I² system and as a thermal camera. More importantly, you can flip a switch on this puppy and fuse the two images together. That means you can see a heat signature through smoke or fog and see an assailant hiding behind glass. There are only two major drawbacks to this system: It's hard to get because the military is sucking them up, and it is expensive, more than $10K."
"ITT Exelis makes the Dual Sensor Night Vision Goggle (DSNVG). It is exceedingly cool. You can use it as a Gen 3 I² system and as a thermal camera. More importantly, you can flip a switch on this puppy and fuse the two images together. That means you can see a heat signature through smoke or fog and see an assailant hiding behind glass. There are only two major drawbacks to this system: It's hard to get because the military is sucking them up, and it is expensive, more than $10K."
Actually, those specific ITT DSNVGs suck. The new crop of fusion binos are much better. The problem is, even with i2/LWIR fusion you still can’t see through atmospheric obscurants. Multi-spectral is the way to go, and we’re on our way there at least on things that can carry the package, like flying things and big rolling turds.
SWIR is great, but it just isn’t that helpful for the average hunter above what we already have, unless you are always in the fog. It’s awesome for S&R during forest fires and bad weather, and makes a great surveillance tool, but it’s just not a thing for most of us.
SWIR is great, but it just isn’t that helpful for the average hunter above what we already have, unless you are always in the fog. It’s awesome for S&R during forest fires and bad weather, and makes a great surveillance tool, but it’s just not a thing for most of us.
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SPS+MMT (SWIR Pocket Scope+Multi Mode Tracker) | Sensors Unlimited
The SPS+MMT is the first upgrade for the SPS handheld product line. A field-ready Short Wave Infrared (SWIR) viewer providing high resolution video that provides laser tracking and decoding of up to 3
Anyone have a price check on one of these?
SPS+MMT (SWIR Pocket Scope+Multi Mode Tracker) | Sensors Unlimited
The SPS+MMT is the first upgrade for the SPS handheld product line. A field-ready Short Wave Infrared (SWIR) viewer providing high resolution video that provides laser tracking and decoding of up to 3
Anyone have a price check on one of these?
I have one of those swir pocket scopes at work and the equipment receipt says 28k.
How do you like it?
Do you know how that compares to something like this (or is this even more out of my price range):
Micro-SWIR 640CSX SWaP Optimized Camera | Sensors Unlimited
The compact ITAR-Free 640CSX is Sensors Unlimited’s next generation SWIR video camera designed for applications requiring small Size, Weight, and Power (SWaP) as well as high sensitivity. 1.25 x 1.25 x 1.10 in.
Or maybe one of these?
GEM lll Night Vision Device | Sensors Unlimited
GEM lll Night Vision Device with modular, multifunctional image capture in low light
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It does what it needs to well, but for the most part, I think SWIR doesn’t have a lot of applications outside of the military/law enforcement. The things it does are very useful from an ISR perspective, but that’s just one tool we have. If I wanted something for hunting use, I’d much rather a good thermal (MWIR or LWIR).
As far as a good thermal, I ordered a NOx, I guess they should ship soon?
I'm really looking forward to getting to experience the stuff wigwamitus has posted.
As for SWiR, I'm not a hunter, so the observation aspect and being able to see and photograph what's around me, both urban and when I go 4wheeling in the middle of nowhere here in AZ, is what I see being the main use of the gear.
The ability to run without lights and drive up on wildlife without scaring them off as well as being able to photograph is really appealing, when it's 100* at night that's the best time to go 4wheeling.
I'd like to see what I'm missing when I go night wheeling, that's when everything is most active in the desert.
I want to be able to see whatever is in the dark in an urban setting, I'd like to be able to see through glass so I can look out a window or see from inside a car.
I live right in the middle of downtown Tucson, but we have hawks, owls and coyotes in the garden, as well as the undesirable two legged wildlife, which I'd like to be able to see in the dark.
If I'm understanding the tech, it's pretty easy to ruin good nv with exposure to light, especially if I use it in an urban environment?
At the moment, SWIR is generally a rich-man's game. $20K plus for an entry-level unit.
If you hunt, LWIR thermal (everything else out there) is WAY better. Detecting heat signatures is far superior with LWIR.
If the hogs and yotes in your AO have 1550nm strobes blasting from their eyeballs, SWIR will be a big help. Otherwise, it's fancy tech that won't do nuttin' fer ya.
If you hunt, LWIR thermal (everything else out there) is WAY better. Detecting heat signatures is far superior with LWIR.
If the hogs and yotes in your AO have 1550nm strobes blasting from their eyeballs, SWIR will be a big help. Otherwise, it's fancy tech that won't do nuttin' fer ya.
No, that's a generally inaccurate misunderstanding. Good NV works just fine in mixed lighting and in urban environments. If you stand and stare at a bright light for hours sure, you might burn a tube. If you're moving, there are zeros worries about tube damage.
Thanks so much, the way this stuff works, or doesn't and the cost to get started is really intimidating especially as I'm wanting two of everything for my wife and myself.
I am kind of gifted at breaking stuff....derp.
But you've got to be good at something? Right?
Not really. As was mentioned above, SWIR isn't the advantage that a lot of people seem to think. It is better than I2 in some specific ways but it is also worse than LWIR/MWIR in other specific ways that probably reduce its utility to a civilian hunter. There are not really any MWIR or SWIR systems that aren't 50k+ that can be bought by civilians AFAIK. The closest I can think of is getting a grey market MAWL-CLAD and maybe trying to find a Safran ECOSI somewhere.
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