Switch Barrel Technology

I went with the switchlug. It's almost most finished up, I'll post an update one I get it . For me I wanted a system that I could use with the action and chassis I already had plus to be able to swap barrels without removing the the action or the scope.
heres a pic my smith posted on FB.
 

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I went with the switchlug. It's almost most finished up, I'll post an update one I get it . For me I wanted a system that I could use with the action and chassis I already had plus to be able to swap barrels without removing the the action or the scope.
heres a pic my smith posted on FB.

Looks great- I saw that on WTO Instagram earlier today. What action is that?
 
No, I think that Morgan is right on the money about how we define a switch barrel.

In my fading mind, there is only a simple distinction to what I (probably erroneously) call a switch barrel.

To me, it involves whether or not a gunsmith must machine a barrel in order to headspace it, or whether a user can achieve headspace without doing any machining. If they can, then I use the term 'switch barrel'.

My Savage custom (the original SH Ghost Dancer, born in 2001) has been switched between three different barrels to create maybe as many as a half dozen separate rifle configurations. It will be switched again soon, this time to host a factory Savage .308 barrel while its current L-W 28" .260 barrel is swapped over to a new Savage 11VT .308 donor rifle.

Greg

So my deviant isn't a switch barrel because it has shouldered barrels but if I have a smith make a remage barrel then it becomes a switch barrel? I'm really confused now lol. Take Josh at Patriot Valley, once he takes measurements on your action he doesn't ever need to see the action again from what I have gathered. That means I don't have to ship off the action or order go/no go gauges for the Savage style barrel nut setups.
 
Yep, color me equally confused.

But not about Josh. From what I read, he's top notch.

I have always (whatever little I have needed done) had Dan at Dark Eagle, just outside Watkins Glen, NY, do my work. He's the best I've seen personally, was a 15 minute drive from where I lived up until a year ago, and a fellow club member at Community Conservation Club.

These days, I don't have a club (yet) and do my own simple, basic barrel swaps. Since I stick with Savage rifles, it's not a big deal.

My philosophy is 'purely cheapskate'.

I figure that at the shorter distances, the factory Savage is plenty good enough; and at the long distances, my wind skills aren't primo, so I don't lose much by not building spend worthy rifles. Good load development and due diligence handloading brings the Savages to their peak for me. At 71, I don't plan to live forever so I'm not building for a long future, and the Savage rifles work just fine for me.

...And ya don't have to be my age to get along with that philosophy, either. Shooting is a big part of my life these days, but it's not everything.

Greg
 
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I shoot a Shilen DGR with a Savage barrel nut setup and really like it. All it really saves me is a couple or three-hundred $ per barrel in fitting, but I find that to be enough. If you get one of the alpha barrels, Bartlein, etc, it saves you even less. What makes it so attractive to me is Criterion Barrels. Not considered to be one of the alpha barrels, but my Criterion/DGR/MPA combo is the best shooting rig I've ever had. The barrel is only $300 and the tooling to put it on is not expensive and literally a lifetime purchase. I bolted the whole rifle together in my garage in less than an hour. There's something extremely satisfying about having my best shooting rig being completely DIY.

John

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I shoot a Shilen DGR with a Savage barrel nut setup and really like it. All it really saves me is a couple or three-hundred $ per barrel in fitting, but I find that to be enough. If you get one of the alpha barrels, Bartlein, etc, it saves you even less. What makes it so attractive to me is Criterion Barrels. Not considered to be one of the alpha barrels, but my Criterion/DGR/MPA combo is the best shooting rig I've ever had. The barrel is only $300 and the tooling to put it on is not expensive and literally a lifetime purchase. I bolted the whole rifle together in my garage in less than an hour. There's something extremely satisfying about having my best shooting rig being completely DIY.

John

http://imageshack.com/a/img922/7271/7VA5f2.jpg[img/][/QUOTE]


I plan on using the bugnut on my deviant as soon as I'm ready to rebarrel. I don't see why people make a big deal over a couple hundred dollars in tools, that's minor compared to the rest of the equipment we buy. I might be alone on that thinking since I'm a mechanic and have a lot of money in tools to do my job.
 
I shoot a Shilen DGR with a Savage barrel nut setup and really like it. All it really saves me is a couple or three-hundred $ per barrel in fitting, but I find that to be enough. If you get one of the alpha barrels, Bartlein, etc, it saves you even less. What makes it so attractive to me is Criterion Barrels. Not considered to be one of the alpha barrels, but my Criterion/DGR/MPA combo is the best shooting rig I've ever had. The barrel is only $300 and the tooling to put it on is not expensive and literally a lifetime purchase. I bolted the whole rifle together in my garage in less than an hour. It shoots better than any other rig I've ever had which were 'smithed by some of the best names in the business, using some of the best components available. There's something extremely satisfying about having my best shooting rig being completely DIY.

John

7VA5f2.jpg


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Just fyi guys, figured I'd post it here. I heard that West Texas Ordnance is developing a Switchlug that doesn't replace the "lug" of the action, allowing integrated-lug customs like a Defiance or Bighorn all the features of a Switchlug, while still being allowed to use any regular stock/chassis without modification of the lug recess. Does require barrel retrofit though.
 
Just fyi guys, figured I'd post it here. I heard that West Texas Ordnance is developing a Switchlug that doesn't replace the "lug" of the action, allowing integrated-lug customs like a Defiance or Bighorn all the features of a Switchlug, while still being allowed to use any regular stock/chassis without modification of the lug recess. Does require barrel retrofit though.

That was mentioned in the first post.
 
That was mentioned in the first post.

??? I've seen that the current iteration of the Switchlug was mentioned, but that's not what I was referring to. I don't see the new version of the Switchlug I was talking about mentioned anywhere on this thread.

I posted about the "new" version. The original Switchlug requires you to use it as a lug, even if your action has an integral lug, which means for integral lug actions, it effectively doubles your lug size, for which there are very few stock/chassis options for. That was my only problem with the WTO Switchlug, but they've fixed that.

The new version I'm talking about (which probably won't be released for another couple months i think) does not intrude into the recoil lug pocket. This allows for WAY more stock/chassis options because it doesn't get "piggybacked" onto the integral lug.

In addition to that, since it is meant for use with integral lug actions, it will be less prone to POI shift during swaps because the lug/action doesn't ever move. So hopefully it won't need any/as much bedding as the original to maintain a steady POI between swaps.
 
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I think that this entire discussion points to an issue that has been around nearly since year one.

It's about barrel shoulders; about the need to refine the shank length to match the dimensions of the receiver, and the thickness of the recoil lug. Those dimensions should be a standard, but apparently it is not.

IMHO, that's a direct product of shoddy standards and/or a lack of intra-industry cooperation. Rather than requiring a custom fit, that shank dimension, for a given action, should be identical from unit to unit, kept within a limited spec.

It's long past time for this to change with the capabilities of modern machine tooling.

Then all this give and take would be moot.

Greg
 
I think that this entire discussion points to an issue that has been around nearly since year one.

It's about barrel shoulders; about the need to refine the shank length to match the dimensions of the receiver, and the thickness of the recoil lug. Those dimensions should be a standard, but apparently it is not.

IMHO, that's a direct product of shoddy standards and/or a lack of intra-industry cooperation. Rather than requiring a custom fit, that shank dimension, for a given action, should be identical from unit to unit, kept within a limited spec.

It's long past time for this to change with the capabilities of modern machine tooling.

Then all this give and take would be moot.

Greg

I completely agree with this. What do you believe would move the industry towards a standardization?
 
I thought that model was already out. There are several builds on their Facebook page with them and I've seen them on other pages as well.

Oh interesting, i just saw a pi ture of it. Though it looks like they wrote a comment saying these bad boys wouldnt be officially released until fall (estimated). The pics are of the prototypes. But its good to see pics! I cant wait to get one in my hands.
 
Just fyi guys, figured I'd post it here. I heard that West Texas Ordnance is developing a Switchlug that doesn't replace the "lug" of the action, allowing integrated-lug customs like a Defiance or Bighorn all the features of a Switchlug, while still being allowed to use any regular stock/chassis without modification of the lug recess. Does require barrel retrofit though.

According to their Facebook page, they made a modification in the SwitchLug for the Deviants. From their FB page: "On the TL-3, we opted not to do away with the bottom of the lug as the integral lug on the action and SwitchLug carry almost identical profile dimensions."

This may be what the Defiance looks like without the lug:



 

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Oh interesting, i just saw a pi ture of it. Though it looks like they wrote a comment saying these bad boys wouldnt be officially released until fall (estimated). The pics are of the prototypes. But its good to see pics! I cant wait to get one in my hands.

Ok, I didn't read that until today. Sorry, I just seen them in pics and assumed they were in production as well. I think the system looks pretty slick and will probably become very popular for those that like to swap barrels.
 
My switchlug lug back from West Texas Ordnance and all dressed out and loads all loaded up for load development tomorrow.
 

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So I reached out to a few smiths to garner some of their thoughts on switch lug- Aaron Roberts out of spring TX gave me one of the most succinct answers that I believe will direct my custom build; I want to share with any one in my similar situation:

Doc,

I believe that the switchlug is a novel idea, but I don't believe it is necessarily the best solution for pure accuracy. I just don't believe you can keep everything as tight and consistent shot to shot. I would also probably go with a Defiance over the TL3, but the TL3 will work fine if that is what you prefer. The other issue on the switchlug in a chassis is that a lot of material has to be removed to accommodate a nearly .500 thick double recoil lug. This, in my mind creates a possible weak spot in the chassis. If it is a fiberglass stock, that can easily be filled back in via bedding. If you want to do a switch barrel rifle correctly you need a barrel vice and a wrench, that's it. After that you can change barrels on your rifles forever. That's just my thoughts on it, we can build it as you like.
 
And then Josh Kunz owner of Patriot Valley Arms gave another vantage point when I questioned on the possibility of a switch lug on a TL3: Both of these guys are just absolutely solid dudes- It has been fantastic getting to work with them.


"Thank you for reaching out to me, it's nice to hear that you got use out of . It's an interesting question posed. The WTO lug doesn't work with a TL3 without modifications to the receiver as you're likely aware. I'm not keen on modifying the receiver to be honest. It would invalidate any support for warranty from Bighorn. I did some barrels for a friend on a Rem 700 with a switch lug and it has a tendency for a wandering zero with one of the barrels. We didn't get enough rounds down it that didn't have issues where he was happy to keep it that way. I ended up cutting the barrels to utilize a regular recoil lug and he moved on with it. I'd be hesitant to modify a Bighorn to use something that so far had only moderate success so far.

The way I swap barrels on my Bighorn actions is just the classis approach with an action wrench and a barrel vise. The repeatability from barrel to barrel is typically inside of 0.1mrad swap to swap. I think the best approach would be to skip the switch lug and just use the typical install. It's not as convenient but the consistency seems to be better. "
 
IMO if you have to use a vise it's not a quick-change setup. When I think switch barrel, I think quick-change.

The machined flats/crescent wrench sounds like an interesting way to do it, but I'd never think I could get consistent torque.

Crows foot and a torque wrench along with a action wrench are what I'm considering.
 
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Any members that shoot at hard rock know that I have been using the AX and swap barrels on the line between relays to be able to compete in different calibers. I go from .308, to .260, to 6.5cm right on the bench in about 10 seconds using a FAT wrench to keep the torque consistent. It has been extremely reliable and DOPE has held consistent from 600 to 1000 for the past two seasons. I just don't know how much better you can do on a switch barrel set up.
 
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I was about,to ask about switch barrel technology and found this discussion.

Is this advice still current or has the world moved on?

I have no interest in switching barrels during. Match but would,like to replace my own shot,out barrels and to be able to switch calibers from time to time.
 
I have no interest in switching barrels during. Match but would,like to replace my own shot,out barrels and to be able to switch calibers from time to time.

Multiple gunsmiths are making shouldered pre-fit barrels for Bighorn, Impact Precision, and Curtis Customs. You're a barrel vice and action wrench away from changing barrels out at your house. No clamp, barrel nut, or set screw needed.
 
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Multiple gunsmiths are making shouldered pre-fit barrels for Bighorn, Impact Precision, and Curtis Customs. You're a barrel vice and action wrench away from changing barrels out at your house. No clamp, barrel nut, or set screw needed.

That fits the bill.

Any issues?

I assume since they are prefit, no need for go/no gauges.

Does installation require a torque wrench?

A list of recommended tools would be much appreciated.
 
That fits the bill.

Any issues?

I assume since they are prefit, no need for go/no gauges.

Does installation require a torque wrench?

A list of recommended tools would be much appreciated.

Action wrench, torque wrench, and barrel vice. Not to much.

If you'd like to use only a torque wrench you can check out the video in my signature on my Curtis Vector action. It has a quick barrel change feature that has proven reliable and repeatable to say the least.
 
AI and Curtis would be the options I’d look into if you want vice free barrel change outs and don’t want the barrel cut for a barloc, switchlug, etc.

AI if the chassis works for you and Curtis Vector if not.
 
That fits the bill.

Any issues?

I assume since they are prefit, no need for go/no gauges.

Does installation require a torque wrench?

A list of recommended tools would be much appreciated.

Assuming you go with an Impact action.

1. Surgeon Action Wrench

2. Harbor freight 1/2" drive torque wrench

3. Viper barrel vice

Just verify that new brass has easy bolt close, and if you stick three layers of scotch tape on the back of it that it doesnt close or you have really push on it to close. Some might argue that you need a true go gauge but I've never had issues doing it this way. +/- .001 or so isnt going to hurt anything. Most factory guns are going to have much more variance.
 
No preference for action, but would buy a new action for this rifle.

Have a vice and most other tools are not expensive. No problem buying a torque wrench.

Shouldered, prefit, barlock, barrel nut has me confused.

Looking for quality action, capable of barrel replacement at home.

I would need replacement bolt if changing bolt head diameter.

Does any option allow short action cartridges to run in a long action.

I have been spoiled by my Blaser modular systems which allow for a long list of cartridges through the same rifle. If the twist rates weren’t so slow, I would buy another Blaser.

Thanks for the guidance.
 
No preference for action, but would buy a new action for this rifle.

Have a vice and most other tools are not expensive. No problem buying a torque wrench.

Shouldered, prefit, barlock, barrel nut has me confused.

Looking for quality action, capable of barrel replacement at home.

I would need replacement bolt if changing bolt head diameter.

Does any option allow short action cartridges to run in a long action.

I have been spoiled by my Blaser modular systems which allow for a long list of cartridges through the same rifle. If the twist rates weren’t so slow, I would buy another Blaser.

Thanks for the guidance.

I bought a bighorn TL3 and plan on using it for a 6.5 creed and 224 valk rifle. Both barrels are shouldered, so no need to mess with gauges. Just change the barrel, bolt face and torque the barrel on the action and you’re good for the next range session. Only other issue is zeroing the optic for each barrel/caliber but a pen and paper or the notepad on your phone would be a good way to keep those numbers. There are a few companies making very good pre fit shouldered barrels for the TL3
 
Assuming you go with an Impact action.

1. Surgeon Action Wrench

2. Harbor freight 1/2" drive torque wrench

3. Viper barrel vice

Just verify that new brass has easy bolt close, and if you stick three layers of scotch tape on the back of it that it doesnt close or you have really push on it to close. Some might argue that you need a true go gauge but I've never had issues doing it this way. +/- .001 or so isnt going to hurt anything. Most factory guns are going to have much more variance.

Very helpful. Thank you.
 
I’ve been using Sig SSG3000 actions.... which allow for the barrel to be swapped with any other .308 Win based cartidge chambered barrels.

This is not as cool cool as the current modern actions with quick change barrels, but its still pretty quick. <5 minutes

Barrels are around $750... with the barrel extension.

I know you can find McMillan stocked versions cheap... <$1000.00... and the you can swap for 308, 6.5, 260, etc.
 
I’ve been using Sig SSG3000 actions.... which allow for the barrel to be swapped with any other .308 Win based cartidge chambered barrels.

This is not as cool cool as the current modern actions with quick change barrels, but its still pretty quick. <5 minutes

Barrels are around $750... with the barrel extension.

I know you can find McMillan stocked versions cheap... <$1000.00... and the you can swap for 308, 6.5, 260, etc.

I have an SSG 3000.

The .308 barrel is so accurate, I hesitate to change it.

Only downside is the 1:12 twist.

Now looking for another rifle.
 
SSG3000 is a long action. You can use all std rounds up to 30-06 and 9.3x62 ( with mag mod)
I have a factory Sauer 30-06 20" heavy on mine with 1-11" twist and a can.
 
So I’m headed towards a Bighorn TL3 with prefit barrels.

The replaceable bolt head is an added benefit.

Barrel nuts don’t impress when you can buy a prefit barrel.

What I don’t know is if any of the newer options would be a better, more cost effective option.

Also what is meant by a shouldered barrel?

What say you?
 
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We have been machining "Switch Barrel" actions since 1981 here at Kelbly's. We make extra bolts for actions and hold headspace here to +/- .001" we also hold the shank and thread dimensions to minimum thread specs. This allows us to ship barrels all over the world that are chambered to a standard and they will screw on your action, headspace properly and the only things you need are an action wrench and a barrel vise. This also allows your local gunsmith to chamber a blank to our specifications, you walk in and he swaps the barrel and then you go out shooting. Super simple and incredibly effective.

After seeing all this new technology come out and it all has its place, the problem still is raw accuracy. So coming from the benchrest world, where all of this custom rifle technology came from ie. switch barrels, carbon fiber stocks, match grade barrels, 6BR, 6mm Dasher, 6x47 Lapua, etc. They still use a shouldered and torqued barrel, even though guys will swap barrels in a match! This is because they know that a hand tight barrel will not shoot consistently day after day. The issue becomes pressure and how threads work. A thread only works to its full potential if torqued properly, so that the threads stretch as intended and the barrel is shouldered to the face of the action. If a thread is not torqued properly than the "sloppiness" of the threads is still present, allowing the barrel shoulder to separate from the receiver face under pressure (ie. 60,000 psi) and then it slams back into the receiver face, once the pressure has dropped. This causes minor POI shifts on target.

The only way to have extreme consistent accuracy is to have a shouldered barrel that is torqued at 100-150 foot pounds of torque.

The best system we have seen to date is AI's switch platform, but it only serves the purpose for tactical and plinking applications. If it were as accurate as a shouldered barrel it would have made its way into benchrest, or F-Class, because it is so easy to change their barrels.

We supply actions, barrels, and rifles to over 44 countries and we developed our tolerances around being able to supply our international customers quality match barrels, chambered properly that really only can come from the USA in the past.

So our system you can buy one action (ie. a short action) and order two extra bolts and cover case rim sizes from .385", .480", and .532" in one action and just change out barrels and bolts. All you need is a rear entry action wrench, and a barrel vise. No need to remove the stock or any optics. It can all be done without removing anything but the bolt and barrel. you unscrew the old barrel, screw on the new one and torque to over 100 foot pounds, and install the proper bolt. Easy changes, no headspace gauges, no worries about anything coming loose, just a simple thread and torque. It's even accurate enough to set 80 records in competition since 1994.
 
We have been machining "Switch Barrel" actions since 1981 here at Kelbly's. We make extra bolts for actions and hold headspace here to +/- .001" we also hold the shank and thread dimensions to minimum thread specs. This allows us to ship barrels all over the world that are chambered to a standard and they will screw on your action, headspace properly and the only things you need are an action wrench and a barrel vise. This also allows your local gunsmith to chamber a blank to our specifications, you walk in and he swaps the barrel and then you go out shooting. Super simple and incredibly effective.

After seeing all this new technology come out and it all has its place, the problem still is raw accuracy. So coming from the benchrest world, where all of this custom rifle technology came from ie. switch barrels, carbon fiber stocks, match grade barrels, 6BR, 6mm Dasher, 6x47 Lapua, etc. They still use a shouldered and torqued barrel, even though guys will swap barrels in a match! This is because they know that a hand tight barrel will not shoot consistently day after day. The issue becomes pressure and how threads work. A thread only works to its full potential if torqued properly, so that the threads stretch as intended and the barrel is shouldered to the face of the action. If a thread is not torqued properly than the "sloppiness" of the threads is still present, allowing the barrel shoulder to separate from the receiver face under pressure (ie. 60,000 psi) and then it slams back into the receiver face, once the pressure has dropped. This causes minor POI shifts on target.

The only way to have extreme consistent accuracy is to have a shouldered barrel that is torqued at 100-150 foot pounds of torque.

The best system we have seen to date is AI's switch platform, but it only serves the purpose for tactical and plinking applications. If it were as accurate as a shouldered barrel it would have made its way into benchrest, or F-Class, because it is so easy to change their barrels.

We supply actions, barrels, and rifles to over 44 countries and we developed our tolerances around being able to supply our international customers quality match barrels, chambered properly that really only can come from the USA in the past.

So our system you can buy one action (ie. a short action) and order two extra bolts and cover case rim sizes from .385", .480", and .532" in one action and just change out barrels and bolts. All you need is a rear entry action wrench, and a barrel vise. No need to remove the stock or any optics. It can all be done without removing anything but the bolt and barrel. you unscrew the old barrel, screw on the new one and torque to over 100 foot pounds, and install the proper bolt. Easy changes, no headspace gauges, no worries about anything coming loose, just a simple thread and torque. It's even accurate enough to set 80 records in competition since 1994.

Wouldn’t the Cadex Kraken be similar? It’s basically just a vice free version of a rear entry action wrench and 100ft lbs.
 
Wouldn’t the Cadex Kraken be similar? It’s basically just a vice free version of a rear entry action wrench and 100ft lbs.

Yes the same principle but requires special tooling and a special made barrel. Ours uses a wrench for all of our actions that can also be used for Remingtons and our rifles start at $3300 and any gunsmith can chamber a barrel to our specs.
 
Which action and barrel mate the way Ian is describing and what are the pros and cons of each?

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience.

Bighorn TL3
Impact
Curtis Custom Vector
Kelbly

Hell damn near any action will work like that if you send it to a smith and he saves your action specs and you keep using that specific smith.
The point of prefit barrels is the ability and convenience of not having to wait for a smith. You can buy pre fit barrels from anyone that makes them and just screw it on at home.
 
I’m just putting in my two cents as a new member here, YMMV! I use these rifles professionally and field teams that use them. We use them for one reason only, and that’s if something happens to a barrel in the field we can switch it out without a hassle. We don’t switch calibers or anything like that, but we regularly switch out barrels for any numbers of other reasons. We did a lot of research and tried several different models while at SHOT. The Kraken’s bolt had real issues at and so it was dismissed. We had a fleet of AI’s that we loved, and getting parts was really easy, but the cost for the rifle was a little too high. Loved the Barret MRAD idea, but I couldn’t get round a polymer casing on the bolt, I need to see it used in the field for a few more years, but it may be a winner for us. In the end we settled on Desert Tech and they have been great in the field. The barrel switch is super easy and can be done in minutes with one tool. Very robust system and in the end all of us like the shorter system.
 
I’m just putting in my two cents as a new member here, YMMV! I use these rifles professionally and field teams that use them. We use them for one reason only, and that’s if something happens to a barrel in the field we can switch it out without a hassle. We don’t switch calibers or anything like that, but we regularly switch out barrels for any numbers of other reasons. We did a lot of research and tried several different models while at SHOT. The Kraken’s bolt had real issues at and so it was dismissed. We had a fleet of AI’s that we loved, and getting parts was really easy, but the cost for the rifle was a little too high. Loved the Barret MRAD idea, but I couldn’t get round a polymer casing on the bolt, I need to see it used in the field for a few more years, but it may be a winner for us. In the end we settled on Desert Tech and they have been great in the field. The barrel switch is super easy and can be done in minutes with one tool. Very robust system and in the end all of us like the shorter system.

Was a complete rifle your only option or did you look at custom builds based on the several actions now on the market?

You raise a distinction which is of relevance to this discussion. The ability to change a barrel in the field and the ability to change a barrel or caliber at home with a barrel wrench and a vise is another matter altogether. Most of use seek the latter, not necessarily the former.
 
Which action and barrel mate the way Ian is describing and what are the pros and cons of each?

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience.

Almost all actions do as long as you have a shouldered barrel.

Unless you’re asking which actions have tight enough tolerances to order a barrel up without needing the action. If so, Impact, Curtis, AI, Bighorn, Kelbly. I’m sure I’m forgetting some.