System Insight

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: System Insight

Thank you groper,

I see nothing that I disagree with except for the eggdance leading up to groper's post.

If someone holds different views to those which Anthony has expressed, so be it.

We (GSC) are working towards a goal in our own way and the results are clear thus far. If someone feels that a bumblebee is not supposed to fly, well, when you find some in your garden you are free to believe that they arrived on foot or by car.

 

[Augustus]

Re: System Insight

Mr. Schultz, do you now have a solid projectile in 375 cal above 400 gr that is stable and sub-moa accurate throughout its trajectory when fired from an 8 twist at velocities up to 3200 fps? Also, I was wondering about the 338 bullet that Extremist referred to on Longrange Hunting that is advertised to have a 1+ BC and is capable of extending barrel life (MANY) times. I was just curious how a bullet of any design could prevent throat erosion. If his claim is true I could expect to drive this 1+ BC projectile from an 8 twist 338/408 at 3300 fps and expect 3000-4000 rds from a barrel. Do you stand behind these claims? If so, I am sold and will be a loyal customer. Also are you willing to stake your reputation on the claim that the GS 414 will stabilize and be sub-moa accurate thruoghout its trajectory from an 8 twist up to 3200 fps. Thank you for your time and hard work and good luck with all your projects

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: System Insight

The 414gr .375" SP bullet is being developed at present. So we have goals but no claims, at this point.

A major factor with throat erosion is gas blow by. The GSC drive band bullets reduce or eliminate this, depending on how close the barrel is to spec.

All our drive band bullets will prevent or at least reduce blow by. No bullet can eliminate throat erosion.

My current culling rifle has fired more than 3000 shots at better than 4500fps and the throat has hardly moved. What is a fact is that GSC bullets will run cooler and produce less fouling than anything else I know of except aluminium or aluminium clad bullets.

 

[Augustus]

Re: System Insight

Ok, that is what I suspected regarding the 414. Thanks for the straight foward answer. I was always under the impression that throat erosion was caused by hot gases rushing from the case across the surfaces of the throat and into the barrel as it followed the bullet down the tube. If there is an advantage to banded bullets reducing throat erosion, I would expect it to be caused by less initial pressure and therefore heat required to engrave the projectile and move it short distances beyond the throat. This MAY average the pressure and heat over a longer distance and lengthen the life of the throat. I dont believe the banded bullets seal gases any better than jacketed ones.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: System Insight

"If someone feels that a bumblebee is not supposed to fly, well, when you find some in your garden you are free to believe that they arrived on foot or by car."

"The 414gr .375" SP bullet is being developed at present. So we have goals but no claims, at this point."

Thankyou for your honesty Gerard. I trust this means that we will not be looking for bumblebees in your garden.

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: System Insight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was always under the impression that throat erosion was caused by hot gases rushing from the case across the surfaces of the throat and into the barrel as it followed the bullet down the tube.</div></div> That is part of the reason why throats erode. There are multiple factors involved though and gas blow by is another.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If there is an advantage to banded bullets reducing throat erosion, I would expect it to be caused by less initial pressure and therefore heat required to engrave the projectile and move it short distances beyond the throat. This MAY average the pressure and heat over a longer distance and lengthen the life of the throat.</div></div> This is not a measurable parameter. It is too small and far obscured by other more important factors.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dont believe the banded bullets seal gases any better than jacketed ones.</div></div> Ours does, but you are free to believe as you wish. Believing something is so, is different from knowing something is so. Not so?

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: System Insight

Gerard,

"That is part of the reason why throats erode. There are multiple factors involved though and gas blow by is another."... Hot gas is <span style="font-style: italic">the</span> reason for throat erosion, which is why at the micro-level, it can be identified visually as "heat erosion".

"This is not a measurable parameter. It is too small and far obscured by other more important factors."... The pressure curve is most certainly a "measurable parameter".

"Ours does, but you are free to believe as you wish. Believing something is so, is different from knowing something is so. Not so?"... I am curious, how did you measure the "blow by" on a jacketed projectile, and what is your data?

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: System Insight

Ok. They came on foot, I guess.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: System Insight

When the seven caliber bees get there, they will have flown in from the United States.

 

[Augustus]

Re: System Insight

Mr Shultz, I concede I am no expert on the gas sealing properties of various projectiles, my comments regarding the subject were just my personal beliefs based on visual examinations of recovered bullets. I have looked at a lot of jacketed bullets and several banded solids. The ones I examined were from several different manufacturers including a few of yours. From what I could tell the banded solids had more of a propensity to leak than the jacketed variety. None appeared to have a significant problem. This is simply my beliefs based on observations and I am certianly not presenting them as fact. If the banded solids do significantly reduce throat wear to the extent you describe, it is a monumental breakthrough and Ill take it regardless of the cuause. I would bet the 22 cal. culling gun you referred to has an extremely flat pressure curve which extends throat life. I would expect as heavier projos, more propellant, and faster twists come into the picture the gains will not be nearly as dramatic. Anyway if we only see a 10 to 20% increase in throat life on the big boomers, Ill take that also. You are doing good things , keep it up.

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: System Insight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When the seven caliber bees get there, they will have flown in from the United States.</div></div> Where is "there"? If they fly in from the USA, it must be somewhere outside the USA. Why am I having a comprehension problem again?

Augustus,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From what I could tell the banded solids had more of a propensity to leak than the jacketed variety.</div></div> Interesting. This is contrary to what I have seen. What magnification did you use to examine the recovered bullets? You would need about 200x or higher to see gas erosion on the bullet surface.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: System Insight

Gerard,

I was making a weak attempt at humor. Your garden is in South Africa, correct?

Regarding heat erosion on bullet surfaces; are you saying that you have actually found evidence of heat erosion on the engraved surface of a jacketed bullet?

 

[Augustus]

Re: System Insight

When a band allows gas to leak there is a black residue left on the surface of the projectile just as you see on the neck of a case. One does not need a microscope to see this.

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: System Insight

Noel,
Not heat erosion, gas erosion. They are different. Just as you can see whether a bullet impacted in an aqueous medium or something more (or less) solid. Just crank up the magnification high enough.

Augustus,
Thanks for clarifying. I take it that you saw this on a brass or copper bullet that does not have the black coating that we have on our bullets.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: System Insight

Gerard,

I believe you are being serious, so let me ask this again; are you seeing evidence of "gas erosion" (copper vaporization) on the engraving surface of jacketed bullets?

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: System Insight

Noel,
Your question poses several problems for me. Firstly, you seem to have no idea what I am talking about: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I believe you are being serious, so let me ask this again</div></div>

Secondly, your question includes related concepts but, in this case, unrelated concepts: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">are you seeing evidence of "gas erosion" (copper vaporization) on the engraving surface of jacketed bullets?</div></div>

I have no desire to get into a long debate about the fact that GSC bullets are better at gas handling than any other drive band, grooved or smooth bullet currently available. Suffice it to say that they do. We got gas handling done and dusted more than three years ago.

Such a discussion will only serve to cut development time from what others are still trying to understand and add development time to what I am doing, by taking time to explain myself.

I am not going there. Look at this in the same way as the NDA you require customers to agree to. Quite a concept that is, I must say.

Each to his own, no sweat.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: System Insight

Gerard,

"Your question poses several problems for me. Firstly, you seem to have no idea what I am talking about:"... If you believe "blow by" is an issue with jacketed bullets, then your's is a solution in search of a problem. No person, knowledgeable about the conditions leading to throat erosion, is looking at gas "blow-by" as a cause of heat erosion. You are simply wrong here Gerard.

It is possible to cause propellant gas blow-by with engraving bands of improper width, and/or spacing, but this has no bearing upon your chosen focus of throat erosion. With banded-solids, it is an issue of barrel coppering.

"I have no desire to get into a long debate about the fact that GSC bullets are better at gas handling than any other drive band, grooved or smooth bullet currently available."... Nor do you have a data base to engage in such a debate. ZA projectiles have no problem with primary band gas-sealing.

"We got gas handling done and dusted more than three years ago."... I am surprised it took you so many years to figure this out. You first begin to manufacture banded-solids sometime in the 1990's, correct?

"I am not going there. Look at this in the same way as the NDA you require customers to agree to. Quite a concept that is, I must say."... Thank you Gerard. It does seem to limit the damage which the proverbial "loose cannon" can do.

 

[Extremist458]

Re: System Insight

groper,

I'm sorry for being vague in some aspects, but I must. If you would like to ask any questions or need more clarification on what's been discussed already, please feel free.

...and just to mention this, I've been into LR for a long time. I built my .375 going on 12 years ago. Since CT wasn't even invented yet, I went with a custom cartridge (at the time), the 375RUM. Rem 700, 34" fluted Pac-Nor, crio, sleaved bolt, now carbon wrapped...the whole works. Issue was, could never find a bullet good enough to utilize it's potential. Used it for hunting, at close ranges, until I found Lost River Ballistic Technonogies...it was all that was available, at the time, and they ruined that barrel. Until I found GSC, I tried just about every bullet out there, and every bullet left something to be desired. Tried getting a very similar project to this system going 2 years ago, and it fell short because of micro managing. Mr. Mike Mcintyre himself was building it before MPI let him go. What I'm getting at is this has been a dream of mine for many years, and I am more then extactic to see how Louis, GSC and DTA is finally bringing it to life...and better then I could have hoped for.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: System Insight

Anthony,

Most people can understand the need for occasional vagueness within a technical context. It is the contradictions, and plain nonsense, that have caused you trouble.

 

[Extremist458]

Re: System Insight

Noel,

I warned you once, and I don't bluff. Back off.

There are no contradictions, no nonsense and no trouble, you just do not know what you are talking about. You use insults to try to gain information for questions you cannot answer. You only aim to profit from discrediting. You are playing games, and I'm done with you.

To anyone else,
I offer the chance for anyone to ask any question they like and I will answer it. If I contradict, have not made sense or have caused trouble, I will fix it.

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: System Insight

Noel,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No person, knowledgeable about the conditions leading to throat erosion, is looking at gas "blow-by" as a cause of heat erosion. You are simply wrong here Gerard.
</div></div> I have been told that many times in the past. The trick is to take no notice and to lead and not to follow.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am surprised it took you so many years to figure this out.</div></div> That comment confirms you have a way to go still.

Bottom line is: Let us see whose bumblebee flies. Have you got one that flies yet?

 

[groper]

Re: System Insight

no i dont need to ask any questions, i simply posted the answers you had already given to save gerard from reading this entire thread so he could respond...

But the answers are clear on both fronts. There is no proof that anyone has succeeded in 7cal projectiles yet.

Both players do not want to share all the information, obviously to protect all the hard work and research theyve completed and avoid having someone else 'steal' it... this IS the internet FFS.

i say enough talk, let the bullets and bees speak for themselves when they fly in from where ever... Really tho, once the bullets have been perfected, and this goes for ZA and SGC, honestly how long do you think it will be till someone with a laser profiler will simply buy some, measure and anylize them, transfer the data to their CNC machines and simply copy them and mass produce them in a country that doesnt respect IP and patent rights? Id say within a matter of weeks... im sorry to say this, but you need to expect this...

 

[groper]

Re: System Insight

And ill also say this from a business perspective. The company that will ultimately win success from this will be the company that can meet the demand better.

Gerard, a major problem with your bullets is the availablity. You MUST do something to improve this. People will buy your bullets whilst your the only game in town, but as soon as someone else can provide better availability for the same product, they will turn to them and you will loose this business. I would seriously look into licencing production in other countries which in turn solves all the import/export/freight costs which is also a big part of the second problem, price.

The success lies in the SUPPLY, not so much in the Intellectual property and know how, which is is easily copied/leaked or stolen regardless of patents or whatever protection you think you may have, there is no effective protection here. Can you imagine if someone like remington or another large corporation decided to challenge your patent? Would you have the energy and be able to afford to fight it or would you go out of your mind wasting money playing games with all the lawyers?

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: System Insight

Anthony Pienkowski
Niles, Michigan;

Pound sand. If you are clueless enough to make a threat on the internet, then you truely are juvenile, and a danger to yourself.

Gerard,

I know that you do not follow these threads with any regularity, but the ZA 7.0 cal was sub-MOA past 1,000 yards, at a MV of 2,800 fps, a year ago. The fact that the Cheytac case had velocity potential of 3,000+ fps, when used in conjunction with this projectile, necessitated a redesign. Near as I can tell you have not made it past 100 yards, with any kind of repeatable results, up to two weeks ago... but I welcome your challenge.

Isn't competition great?

Groper,

Your points are all well considered, which is why I already have a reciprocal NDA in place with Remington. I would also add that the VGT barrel is an integral part of a viable "system", notwithstanding GSC's protests to the contrary, as are high pressure/temperature cases, and barrel alloys. This has been in the works for quite some time, predating Anthony's efforts even by Gerard's chronology.

My primary reason, for interjecting some corrective information into this thread, is to preclude any enduring impression which some of the crackpot theories contained within it might leave. The ZA "system" will stand on it's own merits, but the clutter of junk-science riding coat-tails needs to be neutralized.

The bottom line is <span style="font-style: italic">both</span> a proven product, and a healthy redundancy in supply capacity, are necessary to success.

 

[260shtr]

Re: System Insight

Any update on how the system is working? How does she shoot at 1K, 1.5K, 2K?

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: System Insight

Groper,
Thank you for your comment. We are fixing the supply problem. We are setting up a completely USA based and owned manufacturing facility. The machines, tooling, raw material and all supporting systems are sourced and supplied in the USA. Only the designs and Anthony's wife, Gina, is from South Africa. Anthony may have mentioned this. The USA is a great country and we are proud to become a part of it. It is an honor.

Noel,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are clueless enough to make a threat on the internet, then you truely are juvenile, and a danger to yourself.</div></div> If you regard this as a threat, you need to grow a thicker skin.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the ZA 7.0 cal was sub-MOA past 1,000 yards, at a MV of 2,800 fps, a year ago. Near as I can tell you have not made it past 100 yards, with any kind of repeatable results,</div></div> This is funny. You have no idea what we are up to. All you have to do is visit our Gallery pages and our They Say page to see what nonsense this is. When you break 3000m, let us know, we may be impressed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but the clutter of junk-science riding coat-tails needs to be neutralized.</div></div> Indeed. No doubt you see yourself as the neutraliser. I have heard that before as well, a number of times in the last 20 years or so. Here is some advice: Stick around, keep quiet and smile a lot. I have no doubt you will pick up some new stuff that way.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: System Insight

Gerard,

"If you regard this as a threat, you need to grow a thicker skin."... I realize that you get lost easily in English, but "warnings" are usually precursors to an adverse reaction. Generally this is called a "threat". He may have intended this as nothing more than a repeated barrage of prattle... in any case, Anthony is more of a threat to himself as already stated. No need to grow a "thicker skin", just keep the boy safe.

"This is funny. You have no idea what we are up to."... Ah, but we do know the failure of the first GS375/7.0 was papered over in a very public manner within this thread.

"Here is some advice: Stick around, keep quiet and smile a lot."... Thank you Gerard, I trust this advice is born of your own life experience.

The proof of all of this is on the range, so personalities may be safely kept separate... would you not agree?

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: System Insight

Noel,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ah, but we do know the failure of the first GS375/7.0 was papered over in a very public manner within this thread.</div></div> I have taken the time to read the entire thread. I see nothing of the "failure" that you mention. All I see is that everything is going to plan with what GSC is doing.

I also see that all is not well with your efforts. A lot of criticism is leveled at bullet designs, all of it from you against GSC. Yet your designs seem to run into trouble wherever they are tried. Many personal insults are flying around, personalities are being attacked, all of it from you and directed mostly at Anthony. Now you are starting on me.

The reason why I do not follow what you are saying, at times, is because you lack comprehension. You should read what is asked and cut out the duplicity. There is nothing wrong with my command of English so I will cease to be polite with you.

Bottom line: GSC is on track with development and we have not taken a cent from anyone for this development work. We will not take any money from anyone until the bullets we were commissioned to develop can do what we want them to do.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The proof of all of this is on the range, so personalities may be safely kept separate... would you not agree?</div></div> Follow your own advice. You would owe Anthony an apology if you do. Then try to get your bullet promises done before trying to drum up more business that you cannot deliver on. You have revealed yourself for what you are and will get no more response from myself or Anthony, except to point out your mistakes.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: System Insight

Gerard,

Gerard: "I have taken the time to read the entire thread. I see nothing of the "failure" that you mention. All I see is that everything is going to plan with what GSC is doing."

Anthony: "When Dave fired the first batch he got one oblong hole at 100, but the bullets opened up at 500, so it's in the design that the issue is found, not the barrel. In-fact, it turns out the flaw was already know, and really has been known for many years, but that's a good thing."

Failure at 100 yards, would be considered a problem by some. It also logically follows that if you did not understand the design error before now, you have many years worth of flawed designs.

"I also see that all is not well with your efforts."... You must be kidding.

" A lot of criticism is leveled at bullet designs, all of it from you against GSC."... I do know why your ULR bullets will not fly, but I would be very foolish to tell you at this point. No specific criticism of your design has been voiced by me.

"Bottom line: GSC is on track with development and we have not taken a cent from anyone for this development work."... I have a different opinion of your "SP" line, but I leave it for you to deal with your customers as you, and they, agree. Mind your business.

"You have revealed yourself for what you are and will get no more response from myself or Anthony, except to point out your mistakes."... Yawn. Relax Gerard, the range tells all.

P.S.,

I always welcome comments which make me aware of mistakes.

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: System Insight

Noel,

This is a very interesting thread. As a 375 shooter I am especially interested. Where are you located?

-Chris

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: System Insight

Hello Chris,

We are located in Northern California.

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Re: System Insight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When Dave fired the first batch he got one oblong hole at 100</div></div> That is what Anthony said and this is where your lack of comprehension shows again.

Here is Dave's report of the same test:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have only done initial 100 yd tests working loads and chrono's. Bullet holes are round so they are stable. Groupings when i fired two of the same loads, shots were touching or a ragged hole.</div></div>

Is it required to spell it out for you that a ragged hole with two of the same loads is the same as a batch resulting in one oblong hole? Do I have to spell out that initial chrono work need not be done at distance and that Dave is free to test as he wishes?

The failure at 100 is in your mind only.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do know why your ULR bullets will not fly, but I would be very foolish to tell you at this point.</div></div> If you know, why do you not apply this brilliance to your own design? Any amateur can build a bullet that will work at 2800fps. Why are yours failing at 3000 and GSC is good to go up to 3200 and beyond? You did notice that we have completed the first round at 3000fps and that we have the results?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It also logically follows that if you did not understand the design error before now, you have many years worth of flawed designs.</div></div> Ouch! That comprehension problem of yours again. We are doing some new work here. Pushing the envelope a little on this design. This means that we go find the edge of the envelope and then, if it is required, pull back a little. Strange concept for you it seems. The existing designs are good. Hey, we get 1600m from a 232 gr SP in a 338 going at mv 3200fps and 2500m with a 416 at 3100fps has been done lots of times. How is yours doing?

Remember we are still not charging a cent for development and prototypes - not even postage. How about you?

You need to run off at the mouth some more now. Keep digging the hole as it were. The more you keep at it, the more shot your reputation will be. Go for it.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: System Insight

^

 

[Bluejazz]

Re: System Insight

This thread is like an accident. I can't seem to go by without continueing to look.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: System Insight

"We are doing some new work here. Pushing the envelope a little on this design. This means that we go find the edge of the envelope and then, if it is required, pull back a little."

"Any amateur can build a bullet that will work at 2800fps."

... Gerard, in the ULR game you are a rank amateur. It is in the 5.5- caliber projectile range of your current experience that ignorance is bliss. You are following the envelope, by your own admission, not pushing it.

"Why are yours failing at 3000 and GSC is good to go up to 3200 and beyond?" The ZA, of a year ago, is good past 3,000 fps from the right twist. I realize, however; the "right twist" is still an issue of some discussion within your development team. Why did you withold the 3,200 fps GS projectile from the Viers test?

"If you know, why do you not apply this brilliance to your own design?"... The obvious answer is, I have.

"You did notice that we have completed the first round at 3000fps and that we have the results?"... At what range? If you understand the design hurdles of the 6.5+ caliber projectile, you would realize that this is the crucial test parameter...

If Terry would like to report on this it is fine with me. My focus has moved on, since last year, into transonic stability modifications. Perhaps this information will be shared following the holidays, perhaps not. I really need to let you take the creative initiative on your own projects a little more.

"You need to run off at the mouth some more now. Keep digging the hole as it were. The more you keep at it, the more shot your reputation will be. Go for it."... Thank you for your concern. I will give your advice all of the consideration it deserves.

 

[flyboy]

Re: System Insight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bluejazz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This thread is like an accident. I can't seem to go by without continueing to look. </div></div>

x2

 

[Wil]

Re: System Insight

Damn what a train wreck...

One dude offers up facts, statistics, and is making an effort to be polite...

the other... is like a disgruntled high school debate team member ending with ...YEAH? WELL FUCK YOU...


NICE!!

 

[Extremist458]

Re: System Insight

To all,

I'll lay it out there for everyone. See, the bullets Noel fired some 1-2 years ago, where actually our bullets...oh, he decided to change the tip profile a little, rendering this as R&D. And by the way, this was at our military proving grounds in Aberdeen. Told you I would find out Noel. It was our 338 projectile.
Now, it was a direct conflict of GSC's patent! Oh, and he has and is making bullets without a license. Wonder if the ATF would like to know this? He's been doing so for a while now, and even here on the hide admitted to it. He's been taking deposits, even before he has a license, or even a machine to make those PDT core bullets, even admitting to using the deposit money to buy the machines. Anyone think this unkosher?

So why am I upset you ask? How about these reasons:

-He makes every attempt to hurt our reputation, following us around, copying our bullets, using our technology and patent, giving incorrect and false information and even going to far as to actively call any client interested in our LR bullets!

-He has sent us on wild goose chases, attempting to detour our sight from his blatant crimes. He went so far as to get GSC involved in investigations with the ATF! Claiming GS could not sell bullets to the military, and even the US all together, because we supply bullets to known terrorist organizations! How messed up can one be to do that? Yes, I spent plenty of my time proving that this is not true. Reason you ask? He was illegally supplying our military with bullets for testing, and I have the paperwork to prove it! He's been doing it for years, and wanted to chase us away! Oh he is careful with his words here, but his actions have gone too far. Call it what you like, this is much deeper then a simple debate.

-He solicited a large manufacturing company called Prodigy Group Inc. to make his bullets, using their licenses and ties with the military to attempt to get in...all with direct copies of our bullets, and some with modifications to try and get around our patent, but he failed.

-This successful testing he is claiming! Well, that was with our bullets. He then changed the tip profile to a Haack/ Von Karmen (spelling) profile to try and improve the BC, which it did slightly, but ended up failing miserably in the accuracy department...hence why he is still here messing with redesign and trying to belittle us, attempting to gain information from us. We had it right from the beginning, but he does not understand it! You can increase the BC of a bullet, but it is a a sacrifice! This is what we just tested, intentionally, and proved just that. That is why it's called testing. If this system of his was so great, show us the sales? Why is Aberdeen saying no?

-He has even called barrel manufacturers and changed the specs of barrels customers ordered to suit his bullets, trying to make the barrels ZA exclusive! Then he gets on here with is "Polite" with his facts and statistics, but they are false and wrong, and he uses those against us, trying to make us look bad. Of course I'm upset! Insults? He has thrown so many at me, it's impossible for me to quote them all here, or even remember all of them. Remember, this isn't our first dealings. He has even called me a number of times and insulted me over the phone.
I simply cannot idly sit by and watch this continue. He is a fraud, hiding behind NDA's and slight details attempting to loop-hole his way through patents and the law. I cannot even tell you how many people have told me he has taken money from them and has provided nothing in return but empty promises...again, hiding behind his NDA and telling lies. The part that really gets he is that he does not stop! He just relentlessly pushes until someone forces him to back down, and I am that man.
Supa_Fly, your signature quote perfectly describes my disposition.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: System Insight

Anthony,

If my projectiles were "direct copies" of yours, the GS custom bullets would fly. They do not.

As for the rest of your rant, you might consider seeking professional help for persecution issues.

 

[Bluejazz]

Re: System Insight

Seems like someone has been called out. As a bystander reading thru this post, I would side with
GSC and vote in their favor if on a jury,if the facts presented are accurate and true.

 

[Bushmaster7]

Re: System Insight

I minored in physics in college but that was many years ago and I don't profess to be any kind of expert on ballistics. My only interest is in seeing a superior cartridge like this go commercial; but based on all the exchanges I am seeing here it looks like that is going to be a long, long time in coming. I was going to wait on this in the DTA HTI platform vs. purchasing a 375 Cheytac in the same platform; but that does not seem like a viable option at this point? Please correct me, I would like to be wrong about this. regards, Dale.

 

[Wil]

Re: System Insight

buy the DTA anyway.... WIN/WIN

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: System Insight

Bluejazz,

There are photographs of both projectiles in this thread. Look at them. You are seeing the difference between a projectile which works, and one which does not. I have used <span style="font-style: italic">nothing</span> typical of a GS design, nor have I utilized a GS projectile as a basis for development, because it is inferior in virtually every aspect from both a conceptual standpoint, and physical execution.

My business relationships, practices, and methods, are complete speculation on his part, and frankly none of anyone's business unless they are party to an agreement... although I do appreciate his apparent interest.

As far as Anthony's <span style="font-style: italic">recital</span> (to be charitable) of any effort to steal, sabotage, or otherwise frustrate his development efforts... it is pure unadulterated baloney. GS custom is not a threat to me in any way, and it is not in my temperment to engage in that kind of activity. If his design was viable, it would succeed.

The particularly nasty accusation that he was reported (by me) to the ATF for "selling to terrorist organizations" is a bold-faced lie.

What has been published on the web, by Lutz Moeller, is that a 50 caliber projectile which he helped Gerard design the nose on, was forthwith sent to one of the Arab countries. Supposedly it "worked well", but the final destination was never specified. It was in personal conversation with another of Lutz's business associates that I was told this is the reason the U.S. military will not touch any of the PSR rifle submittals, utilizing the GS projectile, and are eliminated from consideration.

I passed this on, as an aside, to Anthony in a telephone call which he solicited. My express purpose was to make him aware of the rumor. That is the end of the story, and the extent of my involvement. What Anthony has cobbeled together since then is a product of his own personal issues.

 

[groper]

Re: System Insight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bushmaster7</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I minored in physics in college but that was many years ago and I don't profess to be any kind of expert on ballistics. My only interest is in seeing a superior cartridge like this go commercial; but based on all the exchanges I am seeing here it looks like that is going to be a long, long time in coming. I was going to wait on this in the DTA HTI platform vs. purchasing a 375 Cheytac in the same platform; but that does not seem like a viable option at this point? Please correct me, I would like to be wrong about this. regards, Dale. </div></div>

No mate, the issues are only with the 6.5-7cal long projectiles trying to be perfected by noel carlson and GSC. These bullets are typically around 397-414gr solids and are so long that stability has been difficult to achieve. There is nothing wrong with the 375 cheytac system if you stick to the 350gr class of bullets already available.

The reason they keep working on these very long bullets is because if they get them perfected, they will have an effective range much greater than anything else out there by a long way, circa 3.5km....

 

[SiLo]

Re: System Insight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Noel Carlson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does Lutz's "Viking", or LM-119, fly at all to your knowledge?</div></div> From Lutz's website (re Viking):
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Noel Carlson talked me into several Changes to my Projectiles for the Barrels he intended to make. After he never bought any Bullet from me and never delivered any Barrel to me, but only used my Time, I canceled this kind of "Cooperation". He may independently pursue, what he likes and so do I. Good Luck Noel, may Your Dreams come true! </div></div> So the Viking doesn't work due to the changes you got him to make?.

Sounds a bit similar to this:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Extremist458</div><div class="ubbcode-body">-This successful testing he is claiming! Well, that was with our bullets. He then changed the tip profile to a Haack/ Von Karmen (spelling) profile to try and improve the BC, which it did slightly, but ended up failing miserably in the accuracy department...hence why he is still here messing with redesign and trying to belittle us, attempting to gain information from us.</div></div>

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: System Insight

Silo,

"So the Viking doesn't work due to the changes you got him to make?."... No, the "Viking" can not be made to work. It is a complete failure aeroballistically, as he was warned by me (among others). The end product was the result of his efforts in entirety.

Lutz does know how to configure the nose to match a Haack profile, and this is what GS relied upon him for with the original LM-105, and the 50 caliber that I mentioned.

 

[Bluejazz]

Re: System Insight

Noel,
It was not my intent to get in the middle of an argument between you and GSC. I only stated my impression of my reading of this post to date. I am actually more interested in hearing about the original topic of this thread by Dave Viers, instead of reading pages of personal acusation being aired on here, which serve no purpose to the original topic at hand.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: System Insight

Understood.

 

[viersco]

Re: System Insight

Bluejazz,

I picked up the case gauges today from the Wire EDM guy, Wilt Wire & Fab, Sac City, Iowa. Shout out to Dave Wilt.

I will be sending them off to Australia tomorrow so they can start making the new brass. I hope to see some in about 3-4 weeks.

If anyone here needs any wire work done, no job is too big or too small.

I will be entering into a limited partnership to mass produce my rifle actions. There will be a variety of Wire EDM machined actions, from chrome moly, stainless and even Titanium.

 

[Bluejazz]

Re: System Insight

Thanks for the continued feedback, Dave. Never forgot how kind you were to let me shoot your 338 Snipe-Tac a couple of years ago.