TAC OPS / KMW Collaboration

#103
Frank Green said:
That many guns and 3 shot groups. It does show consistency but not 1/8moa.

If I recall correctly I posted that because of the debate on 5R rifling and 4 groove rifling and the 5R wouldn't do 1/4moa with box ammo.

That all being said....and I don't care if it's 1/4moa or 1/8moa. You want to put a guarantee out there you have to back it up with some data. Show me a rifle that will shoot 25 rounds and the average group size works out to even 1/4moa fired back to back in one sit down. That's killing the target and you can say you have a 1/4moa rifle.

I know how ammo is tested. If you find a lot that will give you sub 1/2 moa and do it consistently in your rifle. Buy a pallets worth.

You build a qty. of guns and get 1/8moa consistency out of them.... I'll tip my hat to Mike and Terry.

If you take one gun....and everyone has what is called a wallet group....but when I see a rifle that will stack 5 x 5 groups and agg a .125". Take it to the benchrest nationals....you will clean house.

The BR nationals where just held like 3 weeks ago. Mark here has one of the hottest shooting rail guns in the country right now. For eight 10 shot groups he agg'd a .210". That's using custom bullets and all precision handloaded ammo. Nobody at that match had a 1/8moa gun on the line. Yes there where groups that shot as small as a .13x" but it was one group.

Later, Frank
Click to expand...

Agreed. Shooting low 1's is pretty unreal even indoors. I have had exactly two barrels out of maybe 20-30 that would shoot 1's semi-regularly (and sometimes 0's), and only one of them shot 5 groups back to back on one piece of paper that average in the 1's. Both Bartleins. I pulled the best one and it sits in my safe along with 1000 of the lot of 105 hybrids it likes. If someone can actually take a shipment of 40 barrels and make them all shoot 0's and 1's and not toss at least half of the barrels out, and with factory ammo that has huge amounts of runout, non-sorted brass and bullets, and inconsistent powder charges, it would be an amazing feat.
 
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#104
lte82 said:
Agreed. Shooting low 1's is pretty unreal even indoors. I have had exactly two barrels out of maybe 20-30 that would shoot 1's semi-regularly (and sometimes 0's), and only one of them shot 5 groups back to back on one piece of paper that average in the 1's. Both Bartleins. I pulled the best one and it sits in my safe along with 1000 of the lot of 105 hybrids it likes. If someone can actually take a shipment of 40 barrels and make them all shoot 0's and 1's and not toss at least half of the barrels out, and with factory ammo that has huge amounts of runout, non-sorted brass and bullets, and inconsistent powder charges, it would be an amazing feat.
Click to expand...
It's not just the barrels. People have to wonder why the short range benchrest guys are using custom bullets and or making the bullets themselves. They are trying to remove variables. They have different terminology for bullets. I'm probably forgetting some but they rate bullets as good bullets, honest bullets and superman bullets. The superman bullets will shoot thru conditions they feel they shouldn't be getting away with otherwise.

I know of ammo/bullet makers being asked by shooters to guarantee them 1/4moa bullets. No one will do it. Now ask for a guarantee of 1/8moa bullets or ammo. Again no one will do it. We get asked vice versa. Can you guarantee me a 1/4moa barrel? Simple answer is no. Why? If the ammo maker cannot guarantee a 1/4moa bullet or ammo how can we guarantee the barrel to shoot 1/4moa? I have a pretty good feel for how ammo and bullets are tested. When ammo is only tested for 1/2moa....how are you going to guarantee 1/4moa let alone 1/8moa? Once fired brass will typically perform better than virgin brass/ammo.

I had a customer a little over a year ago. Call me up...our barrel on a AI rifle. 308win. gun. He thought the barrel was bad. Most of the time it only gave him 1moa. Sometimes it gave him .8moa. It was box Federal GMM ammo. We went over every variable you could think of. I told him before you send the gun to me....go buy a couple of different boxes from a different lot and or buy a couple of boxes of Blackhills or Hornady and shoot the gun and call me back. Go figure....different lot of Federal and the gun dropped to 1/2moa. They ran some handloads thru it and the gun dropped to 1/3moa. Customer comments to me..."I didn't think ammo made that big of a difference!"

Now factor in gunsmithing, the stock, action, scope etc.... in this case with Mike and Terry doing the work lets rule those variables out. They know how to build a gun! That leaves the action and scope as being variables. I've seen actions that regardless of what barrel has been put on it...it will not shoot! Take the barrel off and put it on another action and the thing comes to life.

The biggest variable..... the guy behind the gun pulling the trigger and reading the wind.

Later, Frank

PS: Lte82....Thanks for using our sticks!
 
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#108
If this comes to fruition, I may have to sell my ATX for one of these. PRS comps may not be the same with a 308 for awhile but to have one of these, would be worth it 😍
 
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#110
A real quick point about guarantees because we have already been through on here with Mike 15 years ago.

At that Time GAP was huge on this site, and through that GAP Pack connection Mike was ridiculed over his guarantee, to the point Rogan called Federal to get them to say they won't guarantee Gold Medal Match. Well the end results is, they were wrong and Mike was proven right.

Accuracy guarantees can absolutely be given because nobody says that guarantee is "your" guarantee. It's the Rifles promise when it left the shop it could perform to a certain spec. Mike Provides the Target, he usually provides more than one target too. So the idea you can't do this is completely false.

I used to "proof" AI Rifles for MHSA, would take them to the indoor range one exit up from their shop, and perform the departments required proofing. That might mean, 10 rounds with no suppressors and 10 with the suppressor, they re supposed to be "X" in size in order to pass the spec the individual department requires. It's like a guarantee, and it helps diagnose things when Shooter B can't match the spec.

Sure there are a million variables, but we all shot groups everyday and know what consistency looks like. But trust me, we went down this Mike is lying, No Guarantees, ammo won't hold, shooter can't shoot, well I have a dead prairie dog at 935 yards that says Mike's Rifles are plenty Accurate for me with factory ammo.

The proof is in the execution, if you are happy with your execution, and the rifle performs to your spec, drive on my friends
 
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#111
I don't know this guy from Adam, but his performance requirement is 2 inches or better at 600 yds for 10 shots. Mathematically speaking, his 3 shot groups should average less than 1 inch... which is like 1/7 MOA. There's also an interesting discussion of stats and relevance, etc.

Plain link:

Whole thing is worth a watch just to rustle jimmies for the "look at my SD over 3-5 shots" crowd generally ;-). Grouping comes up around 3:40 or so.
 
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#112
1B423485-464F-4E96-AFF3-69F23AB20BC1.jpeg
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#124
Krob95 said:
Do you take first born children as payment?
Click to expand...
At this point no more children they are ball breakers but I'd probably be open to a plastic blow up doll with three speeds slow medium and suck your brains out...
Make sure it's the model with no voice box and then you'll definitely be in the mix for a free rifle lol...

Mike R
 
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#136
MikeRTacOps said:
Roger that Surgeon 591's and a heavy barrel contour no EFR...
I won't be doing any special request Sorry about that. They will all be the exact same platform so I apologize in advance...

Mike R.
Click to expand...
Does the fact that the Surgeon 591 and the Sentinel are available in LH, does that mean you will do a LH offering?
 
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