PRS Talk Tactical Div .308 or .223

[onebadmofo]

I am already looking forward to next yr and thinking about the Tactical Div .308 or .223, both calibers at 1000 are starting to fade so I realize I will be giving up real long shots.
What are most guys using and why?

 

[Praeger]

I'd say the .223 is well past fading by the time it gets to the 1000 yard mark. Probably transonic at 800 yards. The .308 has longer legs. About the only advantage the .223 has over the .308 is low recoil - easier to spot your shots.

 

[Campguy308]

A fast high BC 75 grain 223 will match the wind drift of some 308 loads, shoot flatter, with way less recoil. Harder to see impacts though

 

[308pirate]

A fast high BC 75 grain 223 will match the wind drift of some 308 loads, shoot flatter, with way less recoil. Harder to see impacts though

3000 fps +

 

[onebadmofo]

What length of barrel .308/.223?
I am thinking 22in for both.

 

[Campguy308]

What length of barrel .308/.223?
I am thinking 22in for both.

I'd go longer if it's going to be a dedicated competition rifle. You will want the most speed you can get, I'd go 26

 

[308pirate]

I'd go longer if it's going to be a dedicated competition rifle. You will want the most speed you can get, I'd go 26

Agree 100%

Palma, Fullbore, and F T/R competitors, who need to wring out every bit of performance out of their 223 or 308 because that is all the rules allow them to shoot, have gone to barrels in the 30 - 32" range but they don't have to worry about mobility or maneuverability.

 

[Shawd43]

Just about all of the shooters I have seen shooting the tactical division are using a .308, to include myself. There are lots of ways to help manage recoil but it’s not easy to make a light weight round show a significant splash. .308 ina 24” with a heavy barrel would be my recommendation.

 

[Dthomas3523]

If I’m not shooting 6creed, I’m shooting .223. Mainly because of the training benefit. Less recoil so I can see everything going on and learn from it, and also learn wind calls/corrections on .223.

If I were trying to win a tactical division, I’d probably run .308.

I might be misguided in my opinion that .223 has a bit more training value though.

 

[Sniper266]

You can load some 77gr bullets in 223 to mag length and push them around 2800fps.
If anything 223 will challange you more and make you a better shooter

 

[onebadmofo]

I looked at 3 match books, I found that approx 80% of rounds were under 750 yards so a 75gr .223 should be effective and impact splash should not be a problem.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I looked at 3 match books, I found that approx 80% of rounds were under 750 yards so a 75gr .223 should be effective and impact splash should not be a problem.

Shot a match a few weeks ago. Longest was 987, and most were as you said 750 and in. 77gr fgmm and no problems seeing splash. And I missed my fair share to need it ?

 

[Sheepkiller1369]

Shot a match a few weeks ago. Longest was 987, and most were as you said 750 and in. 77gr fgmm and no problems seeing splash. And I missed my fair share to need it ?

What barrel twist are guys

You can load some 77gr bullets in 223 to mag length and push them around 2800fps.
If anything 223 will challange you more and make you a better shooter

Would 8 twist be the right choice for the 75-77 grainers?

 

[Lowlight]

Most of the 223 I have seen are using the 80gr bullets at 2950fps give or take a few fps.

But they are pushing them fast. The new Hornady 88gr would be a nice choice, I shot it in my Valkyrie at a match and was 12th overall. I was only going like 2740fps too so if you can get them to 2800fps you have a great bullet. It was outstanding to 700 yards, then after the wind starts to increase by a wide measure, but I still got solid hits at 800, 900, and 1000 yards.

I did shoot a local match with targets out to 1250 yards with a Ruger 223 using Factory Prime 77gr Ammo, and was Top 10 Locally with it. As long as you make up the points close (inside 600) you can lose a few beyond 800 yards. But most guys are doing well with the heavies around 2800 to 2950fps

 

[Campguy308]

I am using a 7 twist in my 223AI (not legal in tactical), but it does well with 80 bergers. At one time I think they had a bullet weight limit of 75 or 77 grains?

 

[Dthomas3523]

What barrel twist are guys

Would 8 twist be the right choice for the 75-77 grainers?

I was using a 7.5 twist in that rifle.

I have an impact being spun up with a 26” 1:7 barrel that will be replacing it.

 

[Sheepkiller1369]

I am using a 7 twist in my 223AI (not legal in tactical), but it does well with 80 bergers. At one time I think they had a bullet weight limit of 75 or 77 grains?

Thinking of putting together a short bolt action 223 for some of the matches carbine class. Wonder if the shorter 16 inch barrel would make a difference on twist rate choices?

 

[Campguy308]

Thinking of putting together a short bolt action 223 for some of the matches carbine class. Wonder if the shorter 16 inch barrel would make a difference on twist rate choices?

How far will you be shooting? You will lose some speed with a 16

 

[Dthomas3523]

I was using a 20” and fgmm was pushing just under 2700. If you’re going past 7-800 or so, the 16” might be pushing it.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I'm currently testing loads in the .308 and .260, but the .223's are next.

I have a 24" 1:8" and a 16" 1:7", and I'll be trying the HDY 75gr Steel Match and the IMI 77gr Razor Core. Hopefully, I get it all done before November, when I'm due for Cataract Surgery. Right now, I can still see OK to shoot with optics.

Greg

 

[Sheepkiller1369]

How far will you be shooting? You will lose some speed with a 16

Not many targets over 600. Would be competing against AR's

 

[FLEric308]

I’m using a 308 shooting hornady 178gr eld-x bullets and 43.5gr of Varget powder. Out of my 26” barrel I am getting roughly 2710fps. I am supersonic until about 1150yards. So for most matches, I am able to reach most targets no issue.

 

[Jettheterror]

Another vote for 223

 

[308pirate]

Wonder if the shorter 16 inch barrel would make a difference on twist rate choices?

No

Just get a 1 in 7 and stop worrying about it. There are SO many factors that overshadow twist rate when it comes to a barrel's accuracy, that I just can't wrap my head around this obsession over rifling rate.

 

[D_TROS]

Be wary of bullet weight restrictions as well as velocity max for both calibers. The 308 is more recoil but modern brakes mitigate it pretty well.
Second, the wind on a Berger 168 going 2800 is 44 inches @ 800 yds. A 77 SMK going 2950 is 62.5 inches @800.

Not only that, the energy to see misses is much greater with the 308 (1060 ft lb) than the 223 (350 ft lb)

I would go 308 and be happy. Its what all in the top 10 of the TAC class are shooting now anyway.


DT

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Second, the wind on a Berger 168 going 2800 is 44 inches @ 800 yds. A 77 SMK going 2950 is 62.5 inches @800.

Just for arguments sake, the gap closes down to 48" of drift if you use a 75 ELD instead of the 77 SMK.

 

[The Hey]

All six of the top Tactical shooters in PRS this season (300pts) have been using .308 Buck Holly is running 175gr Federal, Jim See is running 168gr (unknown bullet type/brand) out of either 28" or 27" barrels. Dorgan Trostel is running factory box ammo. Sean Murphy from NightForce ran BH 175gr OTM. Louis Smith is running 175gr, and I am running 175gr PRIME BTHP and reloads: Prime brass. CCI 200 LR primer, 44.0gr Varget, 175gr TMKs. BTO: 2.170" I am getting 2740fps with an 18ES and 7SD.

See the pattern?
1. Not all spotters are experienced. So, IMO, larger projo making an impact to move that target. There were many targets past 900 that did not have T1000 Target flashers on them this season, so running a .223 COULD cost you points if the MD of a match is not using the T1000s and if you have noob ROs/spotters. Keep this in mind.
2. Misses: Simply put, the .308 moves more dirt when you miss. And given that it rains so much at matches, spotting your hit in the mud sucks. Flipside: less recoil on the .223 from barricades. But that can easily be overcome by the combination of dryfire and barricade live fire. I have a .5mil shift (at most) when firing from supported positions.

Flipside: Nico detour just won the AZ TPRC with a .223 And others have won matches using a .223

If you are thinking of competing in PRS Tac division; also pay attention to velocity restrictions for both .308 and .223 and the caliber restrictions as well.

 

[Sheepkiller1369]

Do you know bullet restrictions on 223? I see on the RTC page they list 77 gr. Not sure if they mean that's the highest weight or the bullet you have to shoot? The 75 ELD is cheaper and higher BC.

 

[The Hey]

Do you know bullet restrictions on 223? I see on the RTC page they list 77 gr. Not sure if they mean that's the highest weight or the bullet you have to shoot? The 75 ELD is cheaper and higher BC.

2.2 Bolt Gun - Tactical Division Allows competitors the opportunity to compete using traditional military and law enforcement calibers. This allows competitors to compete using similar calibers and promotes active duty military and law enforcement competitors use of their service-issued rifles. 2.2.1 Tactical Division rifles are restricted to .308 Winchester and 5.56 NATO/.223 Remington calibers only. 2.2.1.1 NATO/.223 Remington has a bullet weight cap of 77 grains and muzzle velocity cannot exceed 3,000 fps. 2.2.1.2 7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester has a bullet weight cap of 178 grains and muzzle velocity cannot exceed 2,800 fps. 2.2.2 No modified wildcat rounds such as the .223 Ackley Improved are permitted to shoot in the Tactical Division. Anyone discovered violating this rule will receive an automatic Match DQ. 2.2.3 Tactical Division shooters will shoot the exact same COF as Open Division shooters.

https://www.precisionrifleseries.com/static/media/uploads/prs_rules.pdf

These are the 2018 rules. 2019 rules have not been released.

 

[Sheepkiller1369]

Thanks! Both have advantages and disadvantages. Seen Dorgan take 4th overall with 308 at Vibberts shoot a couple weeks ago. Still kinda like the economics of the 223.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

After the bullet weight and velocity restrictions went into effect, I can think of exactly one shooter in Tac I have seen running a .223. If you could still run 80s, then I'd suggest going that route. Given that you can't, though, 308 with a high BC 168-178gr bullet definitely seems to be the way to go.

 

[Ripdog28]

Flipside: Nico detour just won the AZ TPRC with a .223 And others have won matches using a .223

If you are thinking of competing in PRS Tac division; also pay attention to velocity restrictions for both .308 and .223 and the caliber restrictions as well.

Just shot with Nico this past weekend. He is shooting 77g and pushing them around 2850-2900 but don’t remember exactly what he told me, was a hard time spotting impacts at 800+

 

[Ripdog28]

Thanks! Both have advantages and disadvantages. Seen Dorgan take 4th overall with 308 at Vibberts shoot a couple weeks ago. Still kinda like the economics of the 223.

The benefits of learning on a .223 I think are worth it.

I keep debating getting a .223 barrel after my 6.5CM goes especially since I can get lots of free 69g GMM

 

[Dthomas3523]

The benefits of learning on a .223 I think are worth it.

I keep debating getting a .223 barrel after my 6.5CM goes especially since I can get lots of free 69g GMM

I would. I get 62gr ammo and use it to practice inside 3-400 yds.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I would. I get 62gr ammo and use it to practice inside 3-400 yds.

62gr what - green tip?

 

[Dthomas3523]

62gr what - green tip?

Federal bonded

 

[Mscibek]

I ran a 223 in tac all year. It's a handicap for sure but honestly, no more than 308 is and the only issue I had was spotting hits on a few occasions. Flashers fix that issue but not all use them, as has been mentioned. Pretty sure I was the only fool running one at the finale last weekend and we had no flashers. The combination of heavy winds the first day and heavy mirage the second day made it rough. Lack of flashers, without a doubt, cost me a couple points. With all that said, 9 times out of 10 I had no problem keeping up with the 308 shooters in tac and I finished 7th for the year. So it can be done and you can be competitive with it. It's cheap and fun to shoot. I learned a lot this year. Primarily how to read wind better.

If I were to do it again, I'd still run a 223 and 75gr elds at 2950...all day.

 

[Sheepkiller1369]

Thanks! I really like the economics of it. There are trade offs either way,but I also think the 223 is really fun to shoot.

 

[Mscibek]

BTW, I run a 26" barrel because it was easier to get close to the speed limit for tac. The 75gr eld is hands down the best bullet for the situation on the market. With what I've been running, the bullet doesn't go transonic until close to 1200yds. Its more than capable.

And I see what you did there @The Hey , stopping at the top 6 in tac....ya dick

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

BTW, I run a 26" barrel because it was easier to get close to the speed limit for tac. The 75gr eld is hands down the best bullet for the situation on the market. With what I've been running, the bullet doesn't go transonic until close to 1200yds. Its more than capable.

And I see what you did there @The Hey , stopping at the top 6 in tac....ya dick

Pfft.... The Hey... being a dick? Nahhhh...

FYI all, looks like no changes to TAC rules for 2019 season.