Taking a training class, knowing you will struggle?

[SquarePizza]

I have been thinking of taking course this year, but I have a problem... my equipment may not be enough to successfully complete the course as the range pushes farther out.

Here is my problem, I have looked into a few schools that set a 10x requirement for glass, or say no 168gr 308s because of the low BC.

Well I am running a swfa 6x, and 85 grain sierra game kings at .311 BC out of a 243. I know the wind will really beat on this at longer distances. The glass issue I may fix during the black friday sales, but I am running an old factory barrel from the 70s. It LOVES 85 grain ball, and I know it will struggle with the heavier 107s. The barrel is still shooting well under 1 MOA, so I do not want to replace right away.

Knowing my glass may be too low power, or my ball may drift a lot in the wind, I am still willing to go. I know that I can still learn a lot, even if I don't get hits at the longer ranges, I am ok with that. I want to learn, and I know struggle and failure are simply a part of learning.

But do you think a school would be willing to work with that? Or should I wait a year or so until the barrel is shot out and I can rebarrel and run the heavier ball that can handle the wind better?

 

[JohnnyC]

I say as long as nothing you bring will be a detriment to other students or dangerous, run whatchoo brung. I don't see why a school would hold hard and fast to those rules unless it's going to mean abject failure. If nothing else it will force you to step up your game.

 

[NOMAD]

Squarepizza we will be running a few classes this year again at Peacemaker down in WV and our PR1 class is setup to get you organized, comfortable, and focused on the fundimentals of marksmanship. In addaition we are looking at offering gun rentals and a opportunity to purchase ammo as well.

Give a yell and we can get you setup.

 

[HitFactor]

If your equipment doesn't meet the requirements you will be a distraction to the instructor and other students. Don't be that guy.

 

[mark5pt56]

I would talk to Nomad to see if that class will be appropriate for you. If they have rentals, it will give you an opportunity to try other rigs so you know more of what you can plan to purchase.

OPtics-make sure it has external adjustment turrets-meaning they are intended to be utilized in that manner. The capped "hunting" type aren't really intended for this type of constant adjustment.
Rifle-Can it hold up to the heat of constant firing? otherwise you will get a tad angry when you zero is wandering about.
Ammunition-make sure you have enough of one type and you didn't clean out the local Walmart with 8 types, trying each at every yard line.

The worst, switching optics onto other rifles, changing ammunition, etc causing you to re zero-it does irritate people that paid. Other issues are knowing torque values and needing a trailer to haul gear you don't need to each yard line, etc.

 

[SuckitTrebek]

I'm going to tell you right now brother. If you don't have at least 10x don't bother going. And yes your caliber could be much better.

You'll be wasting your own, and the instructors time. Therefore wasting the rest of the classes time because your the guy that didn't bring the minimum
necessary kit....................don't be that guy.

Struggle and failure are part of learning. Not having the necessary gear to get the job done and trying to band aid the situation are something else.

 

[Pinecone]

Look into Bang Steel.

Dan has a 1.5 MOA capability for his course. He actually shot his course of fire, out to 1040 yards, with a out of the box, Wally World Savage hunting rifle in .270, with a 4x scope (I forget Bushnell or Weaver) with coin slot turrets.

He is NOT an equipent snob.

 

[GlockBlock]

I'm going to tell you right now brother. If you don't have at least 10x don't bother going. And yes your caliber could be much better.

You'll be wasting your own, and the instructors time. Therefore wasting the rest of the classes time because your the guy that didn't bring the minimum
necessary kit....................don't be that guy.

Struggle and failure are part of learning. Not having the necessary gear to get the job done and trying to band aid the situation are something else.

I think this guy pretty much nailed it. There is a difference between struggling to do well because you are learning and struggling to do well because you don't have the right tools for the job.

 

[scatterbrains]

I can't comment on anything but your ammo. if you reload get some 105 bthp from hornady they shoot well out of my savage 243 factory 22" spotter barrel. I use hybrid 100v. very doable to 1000yds

 

[lifebreath]

I'd look for a class where you can rent an appropriate setup, like K&M Precision Rifle Training, which rents GAP rifles.

Basic Long Range Precision Rifle Course | K&M Precision Rifle Training LLC

 

[hlee]

We can all give you suggestions on what ammo/equipment to bring, or what kind of student to be. Let's face it, there in no one among us that cannot justify a new purchase... But, the best advice is "Contact the school and discuss the equipment and expectations that you have." If there is a good mesh between your expectations and those of the instructor then you should not have a problem. Like almost everything else, a great experience begins with good communication.

 

[SquarePizza]

Very mixed responses here. It seems some people don't want to shoot next to a guy that isn't great. Or people that think someone struggling will take time away from their experience.

I don't see how my missing a target will take away from the guy next to me. Big deal, I didn't hit the steel at 800 yards, I do not expect the class to stop and walk me on the target.

My main focus is learning how to read the wind, data collection techniques, and further work on the fundamentals/body positioning. I would be perfectly happy if at the end of the day I was able to make an accurate wind call, but wouldn't mind if the wind beat the crap out of my lower BC bullets. When its time to rebarrel, I can always take that knowledge and change what I am running when I am certain my current setup isn't working for me.

What I have is perfect for my area of the country where shots over 300 yards are very rare. I my loads are matched to what my older rifle likes. When I try to get over 100 grain ball, the groups open up a lot, that is why I am not pushing the higher BC 6mms.

Nomad, thank you very much for your response. I will be looking you guys up. =)

 

[SuckitTrebek]

You apparently don't know how when one student is obviously lagging behind all the others it disrupts the whole class.

You my friend...............are that guy.

Find yourself a total beginners course. So your not that guy.

And some good advice above was given to contact who is putting on the course. There are certain gear requirements for a reason.

 

[Pinecone]

If the instructor lets one student pull the entire class back, then that is the instructor's fault.

If you are struggling at 800 yards, it doesn't mean everyone else has to keep shooting 800 yards also.

And everyone can learn a lot from making wind calls, when they are NOT shooting.

 

[Centuriator]

Just to add to this conversation, I took my first PR class yesterday and brought my "new to me" .308 custom built rifle. It performed flawlessly with 175 grain Sierra BTHP Federal match. I came into the class knowing absolutely NOTHING about how to use the rifle, let alone anything about ballistics. By the end of the day I was ringing the steel at around 800 yards about half the time, and hit 100% at 100, 200, 300, 400, 600.

Great instruction was the key, but ... my equipment was proven and good to go. The scope is 22x optic.

There was a guy in the class who showed up with some incredibly odd US optic scope that neither instructor had even seen before, with a reticle that frankly was just bizarre. It would not even hold focus out past 200 yards. He was a drag on the whole class since the instructor had to stop and try to get his scope working several times.

BUT, did not stop my fun or enjoyment.

But, we had "that guy" in our class and I definitely understand why nobody should be "that guy."

The best thing in a class like this is if everyone leaves their ego and their "knowledge" at the door, keep their mouths shut, let the instructors do the instructing and get everything you can out of the class.

FWIW, my .02 and as always, YMMV.

 

[Graham]

Even if you don't care about the others in the class, or what the instructor thinks of you, if you don't show up with the minimum equipment necessary for proper learning you will be wasting your own time and money.

Don't walk over dollars to pick up dimes. By the time you spend the money and time on vacation, tuition, travel and ammo, it makes no sense to limit yourself to improper equipment.

 

[Thebelly]

Very mixed responses here. It seems some people don't want to shoot next to a guy that isn't great. Or people that think someone struggling will take time away from their experience.

I don't see how my missing a target will take away from the guy next to me. Big deal, I didn't hit the steel at 800 yards, I do not expect the class to stop and walk me on the target.

We're all there to learn. However, if the instructor is fighting through your equipment issues to get you 'on', then he's NOT instructing the whole class.

It has nothing to do with sucking at shooting when you arrive. That's kinda the point of professional instruction. Everybody sucked at one point.

I went to a precision rifle course once with a 16" gas gun. I didn't show up with it out of the blue, however. Before I dropped any $$, I called the instructor. The gun seemed to fit ther minimum requirement, but if it was something that was going to takeaway from the training, I wasn't going to use it. They said no worries bring it on down.

I brought it and tried it on day one and then swiftly moved to a loaner rifle that same afternoon. I had no business with shooting that 16" gun in that course. I'm glad for that loaner rifle for the 4 more days of training I used it.

 

[kraigWY]

I have a different look on this. You have YOUR equipment that works for YOU. You are taking a class that will help you get more out of YOUR equipment, it makes no sense to use other equipment.

Ahead of time tell you instructor what you are using and why you are using it. He can work around it, if not, and lets you hold back other students, if he cant make adjustments, FIND ANOTHER INSTRUCTOR.

As an example, I see a lot of advertising for Long Range Hunting Schools on the Outdoor channel. Many have fancy high priced rifles that they loan for the class. But lets say I want to lean to shoot my Model 70 Featherweight in 270 because that's the rifle I'm going to be hunting with. I don't want a heavy fancy hunting rifle, I want a light hunting rifle but I want to improve my abilities with my rifle. Sure the XXX super banger will shoot further, I can see more with 36X glass, BUT I don't hunt with that, I like my light rifle with its 4X fixed scope. I want to use it in the class. I let the instructor know a head of time, if he can't adapt, I'll find another.

You know what you want, you know your limitations, you are paying good money to learn your equipment I see no problem.

 

[Centuriator]

I have a different look on this. You have YOUR equipment that works for YOU. You are taking a class that will help you get more out of YOUR equipment, it makes no sense to use other equipment.

That much is certainly true, but I think the caution expressed on this forum is don't be "the guy" who shows up with equipment that is NOT working and sucks time away from the instruction the other students should be receiving, but are not, because you have a screwed up piece of gear that the instructors have to waste time on trying to get to work.

That's the other side of the coin here.

 

[azsugarbear]

Squarepizza,

Shooting is just as much a mental game as it is having the perfect equipment. Having said that, your current setup will frustrate you and eventually lead you to doubt your own abilities because it will difficult to separate the shortcomings of the equipment from the shortcomings of the shooter. Without knowing what part is failing, it becomes impossible to correct. There is book learning and then there is field craft/practice. I would save my dollars this year and learn all I could by reading the various websites. Then, when you have upgraded your kit, go to one of these schools where you will be able to correctly apply what you have learned. When that long distance steel rings consistently, your confidence soars - not only in your equipment, but also with your own abilities.

 

[Thebelly]

I have a different look on this. You have YOUR equipment that works for YOU. You are taking a class that will help you get more out of YOUR equipment, it makes no sense to use other equipment.

Fundamentals can be applied across the board and without regard to equipment. I just saw a video of a guy hitting a 1k target with a barreled action strapped to a hunk of lumber.

When you learn the lessons, they can be applied across ANY gun. FWIW, I'm a much better shooter on my rifles (mostly semi-auto guns) than I was before I had very good training and used the instructor's bolt gun.

Removing the variables, including equipment variables, is what helps to define whether an issue is the gun/ammo/scope or the shooter.

 

[Night Eagle]

Why not just rent some equipment from the instructor I'd be willing to bet they have some for rent or loan. I know many peeps that have done that successfully

 

[kraigWY]

Fundamentals can be applied across the board and without regard to equipment. I just saw a video of a guy hitting a 1k target with a barreled action strapped to a hunk of lumber.

When you learn the lessons, they can be applied across ANY gun.

That is true to a point. But not all guns are the same.

When I ran sniper schools for the Guard, I had Guard, Reg. Army, and LE, in my classes. The Guard used M1C/Ds, the RA used M21's and LE used what their department issued. I didn't (and shouldn't have) make everyone shoot the same gun. M1s are different them M14s, the M84 is different then the ART Leatherwood, and the Bolt guns of LE were different yet.

A guardsman wouldn't get much out of the class using M21s or bolt guns, if they were going back to their unit with the M1s. The M84 isn't going to teach the RA guys how to use the ART. And what about the LE officers. If their department issued Bolt guns in 223, using M193 ball, what benefit would they get shooting the '06 or 308.

You need to dance with who brought you. If you're gonna use a M-700 in 223 as a sniper system, use that when you go to your school for example. I could rant and rave all day long that you need X rifle and Y scope. But what does it accomplish if you go home and have to use Z rifle and W scope. Instead I make adjustments, if someone is paying big bucks for the training, you need to accommodate him. It can be done without disrupting the class.

 

[SquarePizza]

Thanks for the posts guys.

About training - I want to get training because I my 3 shot groups average .6ish MOA, with my smallest being .43, and sometimes as large as .75ish. My 10 shot groups open up to around 1-1.5 MOA with very little vertical dispersion, but open across the horizontal plane. Therefore, I know that I have a habit that is compromising my repeatability and I want to coach to tell me what it is. Also, I know squat about calling the wind, and I want to learn.

About my gear - I am not using off the self ammo, I have taken the time to develop a load that works for my rifle, and my needs. Its an older model 70 in 243 win, the twist rate does not like anything heavy. But since I only have access to 600 yards, the 85 grain sierra that I am using is fine. Yes, I know with low weight and BC it struggles in the wind, but it shoots great with my gun and I am not going to just throw a barrel out so I can shoot ball that has a higher BC than what I need on a daily basis.


I know the opinion is that I am a dick for wanting to go to school with old gear. But this thread has accomplished what I was going for, I have had instructors send me their opinions, and have welcomed me to their classes.

 

[Graham]

Taking a training class, knowing you will struggle?

I know the opinion is that I am a dick for wanting to go to school with old gear. But this thread has accomplished what I was going for, I have had instructors send me their opinions, and have welcomed me to their classes.

It's not the age of the gear that matters. Of course if you plan to work on skills that can be developed within the capabilities of your equipment, and choose a course suited to that, then there's no problem with using something that works for it's intended purpose.

 

[George Az]

Just don't be the guy whose snub nose .38 escapes his ankle holster and skips across the floor. Don't be that guy. Believe it or not, I have seen this exact scenario. Dude din't make it. Got sent home. This was after the instructors told everyone numerous times we were "cold." Take any class you want, if you can't do an evolution, be an observer and learn. I promise you will get more respect from the class and your instructor. There is nothing wrong with saying, "You guys go ahead, if there is time, I can try last." I say go. Train & learn.

 

[Thebelly]

That is true to a point. But not all guns are the same.

When I ran sniper schools for the Guard, I had Guard, Reg. Army, and LE, in my classes. The Guard used M1C/Ds, the RA used M21's and LE used what their department issued. I didn't (and shouldn't have) make everyone shoot the same gun. M1s are different them M14s, the M84 is different then the ART Leatherwood, and the Bolt guns of LE were different yet.

A guardsman wouldn't get much out of the class using M21s or bolt guns, if they were going back to their unit with the M1s. The M84 isn't going to teach the RA guys how to use the ART. And what about the LE officers. If their department issued Bolt guns in 223, using M193 ball, what benefit would they get shooting the '06 or 308.

You need to dance with who brought you. If you're gonna use a M-700 in 223 as a sniper system, use that when you go to your school for example. I could rant and rave all day long that you need X rifle and Y scope. But what does it accomplish if you go home and have to use Z rifle and W scope. Instead I make adjustments, if someone is paying big bucks for the training, you need to accommodate him. It can be done without disrupting the class.

The difference is that everyone showed up with 'professional level' gear. They didn't show up to the NASCAR training even in a Toyota tercel.

I always keep the following in mind whenever I go train (at anything):

what is my goal for this training event? What skill am I trying to develop? Do i have the right tools/equipment to get the most out of this trainng?

If my goal is to learn my equipment, well, that can be done anywhere and at any range. I don't need to pay money for a class to figure out what my gun is going to do when I squeeze the trigger. The OP (in post #24) talks about wanting to fix a shooting error. Knowing what we know about his equipment, as he's stated, would it be better served for him to use equipment known to be good (ex: instructor rentals)? Again, I would err on the side of eliminating the variable in equipment to be able to concentrate on the shooter.

In this case, I think the answer is that the shooter is trying to learn skills that can be applied to the whole of precision shooting. I believe the OP would be better served by renting the equipment from the instructor so that the OP can then focus on the lesson and not worrying about if his equipment is up to the task, as he worried about in post #1 when he spoke of BC, etc.

 

[Thebelly]

Thanks for the posts guys.

About training - I want to get training because I my 3 shot groups average .6ish MOA, with my smallest being .43, and sometimes as large as .75ish. My 10 shot groups open up to around 1-1.5 MOA with very little vertical dispersion, but open across the horizontal plane. Therefore, I know that I have a habit that is compromising my repeatability and I want to coach to tell me what it is. Also, I know squat about calling the wind, and I want to learn.

About my gear - I am not using off the self ammo, I have taken the time to develop a load that works for my rifle, and my needs. Its an older model 70 in 243 win, the twist rate does not like anything heavy. But since I only have access to 600 yards, the 85 grain sierra that I am using is fine. Yes, I know with low weight and BC it struggles in the wind, but it shoots great with my gun and I am not going to just throw a barrel out so I can shoot ball that has a higher BC than what I need on a daily basis.


I know the opinion is that I am a dick for wanting to go to school with old gear. But this thread has accomplished what I was going for, I have had instructors send me their opinions, and have welcomed me to their classes.

Dude, good on you for getting instruction. Investing in yourself is the best thing. Have a great time, and post up what you learned!