Talk me into or out of 6BR for PRS

[Jeremybj]

Greetings to all,

Eying a new 6mm rifle for PRS competition and I really want to run a 6BR with a 107 SMK or 108 ELD-M. I am liking the caliber because of the reduced powder loads, quality brass, and "inherent accuracy." My question is is it a good choice for PRS shooting or is the loss of velocity going to make a 6 Creedmoor a better option.

I am hoping I would hit 2850 with either of those bullets, but I know that is gonna take luck in the reloading department and 2800 is probably a more reasonable velocity goal.

Anyways, any advise would be great.

Jeremy

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

Pros: Low recoil. Can watch trace easily. Good wind. Good barrel life.

Cons: Everyone else is buying the brass. It can be a little finnicky when feeding. Mag kits help.

 

[bohem]

Send me a PM if you would like to discuss further but I shoot 6 Dasher and 6BR for PRS matches.
I am shooting 95 TMK's (same BC as the 107 SMK) at 3065 from my 6BR and 105 Hybrids at 2900 from the same barrel.
For midwest or western states matches the 6mm's get beat up a lot in the wind and some guys say that they have more success with much hotter 6's or 6.5's out there. For matches east of the Mississippi River where wind is less of an issue and strange positional shooting is more prevalent the 6BR is an incredibly capable chambering.

 

[Vettez06]

My 6mm dasher is about a week old, I have 143 rounds on it today. It’s by far one of the easiest rounds I’ve ever loaded for. Every group I’ve shot while fireforming has been 1/2” or less using 105 bthp. Shot a few hybrids through it yesterday and 1/4 and 3/8” groups with 2 different charges. With single digit s/d.

 

[Assault116]

Biggest issue with feeding is going to be what action you choose and what magazine and kit you choose to run in it certain actions have a harder time than others.

2850 with those bullets is definitely within the realm of reason, but I'd run the numbers on 95's and see what you think. It may be a choice of the 2 depending on the match distances you're going to see and what kind of wind you are dealing with. It's worth looking into.

The cartridge is plenty capable for the typical distances you see in a PRS or NRL match, from time to time it's going to lack horsepower but those are typically low percentage shots to begin with and are few and far between, whereas the low recoil, easy load tuning and extremely consistent results from the br more than make up for those few real long ball shots you see in a match.

 

[HOG1983]

I want a BR. I think it's going to provide great results for you

 

[RyanM]

I am building a 6br on a Defiance Elite action up here in Canada. I am by no means a pro but I reached some of the same conclusions as the guys above.

Going through the hassle of FFing for an extra 100-150 FPS (if that) is not worth it to me. In Western Canada our matches are all 800M and in and I personally don't think the BR gives up that match and we are always windy - like always... As our matches are shorter in distance we run a lot of barricade shooting and tight par times and the low recoil of the 6BR will be a benefit to me.

It may handicap me when I head to Rock Lake in the spring but I doubt if I shot a Dasher I would do much differently anyways.

 

[Codiekfx400]

Somebody school me on 6 br barrel length. Such a small amount of powder being burned why is there a need for a 26" pipe. I would think this would be of similar characteristics as a 223 Rem where a 22" or 24" barrel is good enough.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I'm really close to pulling the trigger on 6BR and having Josh Kunz do a barreled action for me and a 22BR 6.5" twist barrel as well. I already snagged a set of redding comp dies on clearance at Midway for almost 50% off. Just haven't decided on which action to use yet.

 

[delfuego]

There is a difference in shooting a Dasher vs the 6BR. I have both. You will see it when you shoot it. That 100+ fps makes a difference and you will notice it. The question: "Is the juice worth the squeeze?".

It's a moot point since there is no BR brass left on earth...

 

[spife7980]

It's a moot point since there is no BR brass left on earth...

Word from the Lapua rep, Kevin Thomas, on another forum
"The first shipment of Lapua 6mm BR cases arrived in Sedalia, and have already gone out to several of our dealers. If you've had it on backorder, you may be seeing some pretty quickly. We have another order that's due to arrive within the next week or so, and some of that may even find its way to the dealers shelves."

 

[delfuego]

"The first shipment of Lapua 6mm BR cases arrived in Sedalia,

Sedalia Colorado? I'm on my way. $200 per box for anyone who wants it

 

[RyanM]

In Canadia the stuff is plentiful and inexpensive (for Lapua brass).

The BR/BRX/Dasher has not caught on here quite yet and the 6XC is all the rage still.

 

[RyanM]

Also I want to point out that Matt B. runs his Dasher in the Mid 2,900s (2,960 if my memory serves) so the spread could be less than 100-150 FPS.

 

[spife7980]

Sedalia Colorado? I'm on my way. $200 per box for anyone who wants it

Missouri, same town as Sierra actually.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2017/06/new-logistics-center-for-capstone-precision-group-llc/

 

[dukedurham]

If you want to form your own 6BR from 308, I believe you can get the PBike257 shoulder setback die and get all you could want. Just sayin'. Check him out on YouTube

 

[Sheldon N]

I think any 6BR based case is great for PRS shooting, whether standard 6BR or one of the improved variants like BRX/BRA/Dasher etc. I personally don't mind the fire forming since they all shoot about like a 6BR when doing so, then the extra 100-150fps comes in handy. 150fps is about 0.2 mil of wind drift in 10mph @ 1000 yards, so not much. In terms of points in a match that's maybe one or two points in the match as a whole where you caught an edge hit rather than missing.

The wind definitely blows out west here, but we still get beat by Vibbert and his BRX.

 

[Simia Dei]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone had experience building a 6BR on a tikka action?

 

[b6graham]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone had experience building a 6BR on a tikka action?

i've seen several in 6BR and Dasher recently

 

[KPLC]

Send me a PM if you would like to discuss further but I shoot 6 Dasher and 6BR for PRS matches.
I am shooting 95 TMK's (same BC as the 107 SMK) at 3065 from my 6BR and 105 Hybrids at 2900 from the same barrel.
For midwest or western states matches the 6mm's get beat up a lot in the wind and some guys say that they have more success with much hotter 6's or 6.5's out there. For matches east of the Mississippi River where wind is less of an issue and strange positional shooting is more prevalent the 6BR is an incredibly capable chambering.

Bohem,

What barrel length and profile do you run?

Also, I’ve a Nucleus on order from you with the 6 Dasher Norma Brass chambering. It’s going to be my first intro into handloading. Have you noticed any overall performance differences between the Lapua or Norma chamber?

 

[ShermanR]

Let me throw a ringer in the mix. MY new 6.5 SST (Sherman Short Tactical) is performing VERY well in PRS. You can run 140's at around 3175 max but will give outstanding accuracy and very good barrel and case life at under 3100'. I have a guy that just checked his throat at 1000 rounds and saw very little erosion. He figures 2500-3000 rounds. Now for the good news; my coal with a 147 ELDM at 3107' is 2.770". I have prepped Norma brass in stock as well as reamers and dies. I will have head stamped brass this summer.....rich

 

[TEUFEL820]

Let me throw a ringer in the mix. MY new 6.5 SST (Sherman Short Tactical) is performing VERY well in PRS. You can run 140's at around 3175 max but will give outstanding accuracy and very good barrel and case life at under 3100'. I have a guy that just checked his throat at 1000 rounds and saw very little erosion. He figures 2500-3000 rounds. Now for the good news; my coal with a 147 ELDM at 3107' is 2.770". I have prepped Norma brass in stock as well as reamers and dies. I will have head stamped brass this summer.....richView attachment 6879497

What's the parent case?

 

[ShermanR]

Saum

 

[Sheldon N]

Let me throw a ringer in the mix. MY new 6.5 SST (Sherman Short Tactical) is performing VERY well in PRS. You can run 140's at around 3175 max but will give outstanding accuracy and very good barrel and case life at under 3100'.

Not to speak ill of your cartridge, looks like a great performer and well suited for ELR shooting or hunting. However, it's at the opposite end of the spectrum of where PRS is going. Can't say that I know of anyone shooting a magnum cartidge in PRS as their primary competition cartridge,

And it's pretty significantly off topic when the OP is asking about 6BR.

 

[ShermanR]

Sorry, I didn't read thru the entire thread but was going mostly on the title. The op said (Talk me into or out of) Actually, some of the people I am in contact with say PRS is going longer range and they feel it will be an advantage. I don't personally shoot PRS.

 

[Sheldon N]

Sorry, I didn't read thru the entire thread but was going mostly on the title. Actually, some of the people I am in contact with say PRS is going longer range and they feel it will be an advantage. I don't personally shoot PRS.

Your cartridge would be awesome for the PRS ELR matches. I think the best placing shooters at the last ELR match were shooting some sort of 6.5 SAUM or variant. For the regular season PRS matches where average target distance is usually under 500 yards it would probably be a bit much.

 

[ShermanR]

Yes, that is what my guys thought and why I posted here. I also have a 6mm that will run the 115 DTAC on cruise control at the 3200 limit.

 

[Simia Dei]

i've seen several in 6BR and Dasher recently

Thanks mate. Does anyone know how it'll feed from a CTR mag? Or what mods to the mag might be needed?

 

[260284]

Thanks mate. Does anyone know how it'll feed from a CTR mag? Or what mods to the mag might be needed?

I am not sure how you would get a new follower in a Tikka mag.

 

[Scotch_egg]

There is a guy in the U.K running 6mmbr in Sako TRG same magazine as the CTR.

 

[adamjma]

In Canadia the stuff is plentiful and inexpensive (for Lapua brass).

Shhhhhh! It's our little secret up here!!!

 

[mdonnr]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone had experience building a 6BR on a tikka action?

I run a 6.5 Br on Tikka.

 

[Mordamer]

1 mph of wind at 1000yds is .2 mrad using a 105 Hybrid (2850 vs. 2950)

I encourage everyone reading this to run the numbers and and see if there is a wind call difference between 2850fps and 2950fps.....if you can call the difference between 9 and 10 mph winds at a 1000...

I understand what you are saying, but I have missed several first round shots at matches on longer stages by .2 mil or less. What I mean is, 0.2 mil doesn't sound like much, but when your misses are small misses it can make a big difference.

Also, lets just say that you are on a 1,000 yard stage and have to make a wind call. In this theoretical situation any wind call from 9 to 11 MPH will yield you a hit. The dude right after you shooting at 2,950 can get a hit with any wind call between 8 and 12 MPH. It's a heck of a lot easier to reliably call the wind within a 5 MPH window of error than a 3 MPH window.

Just my thoughts. YMMV

 

[Simia Dei]

I run a 6.5 Br on Tikka.

Mag fed?

 

[mdonnr]

Yep, Been running MDT mags. I need to spend the money on some br mag kits to switch over my AI mags to test them out.

If you need any more info, just pm me so we don’t sidetrack the op’s thread.

 

[Sheldon N]

Also, lets just say that you are on a 1,000 yard stage and have to make a wind call. In this theoretical situation any wind call from 9 to 11 MPH will yield you a hit. The dude right after you shooting at 2,950 can get a hit with any wind call between 8 and 12 MPH. It's a heck of a lot easier to reliably call the wind within a 5 MPH window of error than a 3 MPH window.

I don't think the ballistic calculations support this. Assume a 105 hybrid at 1000 yards and a 24 inch wide target. Once your wind call is off enough to be 12 inches from center point of aim, you miss the target.

At 2850 fps it takes being off on your wind call by 1.5 mph to miss
At 2950 fps it takes being off on your wind call by 1.6 mph to miss

That means the difference in your wind call window is 8.5 - 11.5 mph for 2850fps and 8.4 - 11.6 mph for 2950 fps.

I will say that there's a bit of an advantage to correcting a wind call once you're on the plate rather than missing (depending on the backstop). If you clip the left edge of the target and you see that it swung left you've got good info to make a correction and get more follow up hits. If you miss by just 1/2 inch and the bullet goes into grass with no visual signature, you're left to guess whether to hold more wind or less wind.

 

[Carl_Ross]

It’s analysis like that Sheldon that always keeps me on the smaller side of the chambering spectrum.

“I can decrease my wind drift by 10%. It’ll just double the recoil, significantly reduce barrel life, and increase barrel heat!”

Pass...

Also, backstops (or lack of them) that offer nothing are the worst. Our range has a lot of crusty snow on it right now. I’ve been working on spotting hits/misses better from improvised positions and half the backstops won’t show anything at all if you miss.

 

[Mordamer]

I don't think the ballistic calculations support this. Assume a 105 hybrid at 1000 yards and a 24 inch wide target. Once your wind call is off enough to be 12 inches from center point of aim, you miss the target.

At 2850 fps it takes being off on your wind call by 1.5 mph to miss
At 2950 fps it takes being off on your wind call by 1.6 mph to miss

That means the difference in your wind call window is 8.5 - 11.5 mph for 2850fps and 8.4 - 11.6 mph for 2950 fps.

I will say that there's a bit of an advantage to correcting a wind call once you're on the plate rather than missing (depending on the backstop). If you clip the left edge of the target and you see that it swung left you've got good info to make a correction and get more follow up hits. If you miss by just 1/2 inch and the bullet goes into grass with no visual signature, you're left to guess whether to hold more wind or less wind.

I see. I agree that there is hardly any difference. I think that at most the difference would be 3 hits vs misses per 100 round match for those shots that fall very close to an edge. I do see a heck of a lot of misses that are just off the left or right edge of a target.

 

[Seandradamus]

I understand what you are saying, but I have missed several first round shots at matches on longer stages by .2 mil or less. What I mean is, 0.2 mil doesn't sound like much, but when your misses are small misses it can make a big difference.

Also, lets just say that you are on a 1,000 yard stage and have to make a wind call. In this theoretical situation any wind call from 9 to 11 MPH will yield you a hit. The dude right after you shooting at 2,950 can get a hit with any wind call between 8 and 12 MPH. It's a heck of a lot easier to reliably call the wind within a 5 MPH window of error than a 3 MPH window.

Just my thoughts. YMMV

I have thought about that exact thing when choosing a caliber , how much faster will I need to Shoot to give me a 5 mph window instead of a 3 mph. In my calculations it takes about 250 fps to gain that kind of margin, so if you are currently shooting at 2900 at a 2 MOA Target at 1000 yards in 10 mph 90* wind you have to call within 1 mph each side of actual wind,2 mph either way and you miss, not until you reach 3150 fps can you be off by 2 mph , even then you are on Target by .1 Moa.

 

[steve123]

I wish life were that simple. Out west here where I am, most of the times I go out to shoot long range the wind is either changing directions, having frustrating lulls or pushes, and to top it off we shoot way on high up a hill at one of our locations, which does weird things to a bullet that high up in the air.

Example -Last Wednesday at 979Y both of us with our 6x47's in 4-7 mph winds coming from 10-1 o'clock and aiming at a 15" round steel. I spent about two minutes with 6 shots and got 3 hits. Doing my best, my hits were holdoffs of one at .8 mil. a .6 mil and a .3 mil holdoff, so 50% and I was happy with that.

My friend tries and doesn't hit it in 8 shots, it was only very slightly more windy and I was spotting doing my best to call him in. Half his shots were .1 to .2 mil off either side of the plate and the last one after all that effort was .5 holdoff with the bullet missing right where he aimed. Note his velocity below with the same bullet I use.

This was up on the hill so no wind flags to help us, just what mirage we could make out, and the grass behind the target as indications.

These examples, which happen frequently, are why I constantly vacillate back and forth between 6x47L/105 hybrids at 3172fps or the BR's at slower speeds. BTW my friends velocity is 3025 fps. Well there's the possibility of feeding problems with the BR's short cases too.

I personally right now in life, due to a drop in income last year, need the good barrel life the BR's offer with the additional benefit of 10 grains less powder per case, and understand that they will be more accurate than 6x47. I also understand that most of the shots in tactical matches are much less than 1000Y. But I sure like that extra .2 mils less wind drift at the farther steel!!

Edit - and to take it a step further. At 1122Y in windy conditions with another friend shooting his 6.5 Saum and me the same 6x47, kind of the same thing happened to me but in reverse, my friend connected a fair amount on a 19" steel and I struggled greatly to hit it. Oh and I've won long range matches with my 6x47 and he's never been to a long range match.

 

[Mordamer]

How did you get to the number of 3 misses per 100rd match?

Just a guess based off my experience. The last 2 matches I went to I recorded my misses and the most likely reason for the miss. The majority of my misses were because of wind. Of these misses I was generally very close to the edge of the plates. Out of the last 100 rounds I fired at matches I had about 12 misses due to me making incorrect wind calls. Wouldn't take much less wind drift for me to have picked up 3 of those as edge hits.

 

[goosed]

Why is the discussion focused on drift @ 1000 yards?

Most of the matches I shoot are won and lost inside 600 yards. Are you guys shooting different matches than I am?

 

[steve123]

Why is the discussion focused on drift @ 1000 yards?

Most of the matches I shoot are won and lost inside 600 yards. Are you guys shooting different matches than I am?

I made mention.

But still, there's wind at those distances too and the common 6's aren't heavy kickers. Well every match and every stage is different and the scenario dictates if there is favor one over another. 6x47 has won a bunch of matches, besides, it's mostly the indian vs the arrow. Maybe the right arrow out of the quiver made the difference at times???

 

[Mordamer]

Why is the discussion focused on drift @ 1000 yards?

Most of the matches I shoot are won and lost inside 600 yards. Are you guys shooting different matches than I am?

1000 yards was just an example we are using. Same drift principle obviously applies to your 600 yards and in targets. The targets are often much smaller inside 600 yards and I know I still miss because of wind even at distances as low as 300 yards. Doesn't take much wind to miss a 4" plate at 300 yards.

I believe this is relevant to this thread because the OP is weighing the pros and cons of shooting a 6BR vs. faster 6mm cartridges. I am simply weighing in on the side of the argument that saying that less wind drift does matter for hit percentages.

If you are a shooter that struggles with equipment failures, the fundamentals, bad dope, bad ammo... then this may not matter to you. Whenever you get to the point where you have eliminated these other factors as much as possible from causing misses then you will inevitably struggle with wind as your arch nemesis. As soon as that happens you will be looking to reduce the variables that reduce wind misses. These variables are the shooters wind reading skills, bullet B.C., and Bullet Velocity. There has to be a point where the velocity being low starts to cost you hits. That is all I am saying as part of this discussion.

I love a long barrel life, but there is a point of diminishing returns. For me, I would rather miss less and replace a barrel at 2,500 rounds. Lots of guys shoot cartridges with heavy 6mm bullets at 3,000 fps with barrel life at 2,000+ rounds.

 

[Mordamer]

Because the wind drift difference between a 105 Hybrid at 600 going 2850 vs. 2950 is 0.0mrad.

The only way you could make a discussion about it is the minority of targets on the long end. So it's down to determining if you could use the small advantage of 100fps in reality. In the discussion, one camp is using math, the other is using anecdotal information.

Or just a little over 1 inch. Ever missed a target by 1 inch? I have.

 

[goosed]

1000 yards was just an example we are using. Same drift principle obviously applies to your 600 yards and in targets. The targets are often much smaller inside 600 yards and I know I still miss because of wind even at distances as low as 300 yards. Doesn't take much wind to miss a 4" plate at 300 yards.

I believe this is relevant to this thread because the OP is weighing the pros and cons of shooting a 6BR vs. faster 6mm cartridges. I am simply weighing in on the side of the argument that saying that less wind drift does matter for hit percentages.

If you are a shooter that struggles with equipment failures, the fundamentals, bad dope, bad ammo... then this may not matter to you. Whenever you get to the point where you have eliminated these other factors as much as possible from causing misses then you will inevitably struggle with wind as your arch nemesis. As soon as that happens you will be looking to reduce the variables that reduce wind misses. These variables are the shooters wind reading skills, bullet B.C., and Bullet Velocity. There has to be a point where the velocity being low starts to cost you hits. That is all I am saying as part of this discussion.

I love a long barrel life, but there is a point of diminishing returns. For me, I would rather miss less and replace a barrel at 2,500 rounds. Lots of guys shoot cartridges with heavy 6mm bullets at 3,000 fps with barrel life at 2,000+ rounds.

I gotta know... What kind of wind gusts are you shooting in that you're missing a 4" plate at 300 yards because of wind?

 

[Mordamer]

Because the wind drift difference between a 105 Hybrid at 600 going 2850 vs. 2950 is 0.0mrad.

The only way you could make a discussion about it is the minority of targets on the long end. So it's down to determining if you could use the small advantage of 100fps in reality. In the discussion, one camp is using math, the other is using anecdotal information.

I think your point is valid. You have an excellent understanding of ballistics so I know you will agree with this statement in regards to shooting in the wind:

"All other variables held constant, higher velocity equals higher hit probability."

That's the general idea behind my argument. If you keep lowering velocity at some point it will cost you hits on target. Maybe you are right and that 2,850 FPS with a 105 hybrid is fast enough that it does not matter.

 

[goosed]

It's supposed to be 30mph for tomorrow's match at Raton, NM. You might as well shoot a 30-30; have about the same effects... In those conditions it isn't going to be the speed, it's going to be the absolute unpredictability. You could be holding .5mrad one shot and 1.5mrad the next.

We'll see, I'll be shooting a 6SLR 115 DTAC at 3025fps.

Don't disagree with where your argument is going and maybe I should quit using math... but even if you completely called it wrong, wouldn't the difference between .5 mil and 1.5 mil still get a hit on a 4" plate at 300?

 

[Mordamer]

I gotta know... What kind of wind gusts are you shooting in that you're missing a 4" plate at 300 yards because of wind?

My ballistics show a 4 MPH wind difference from my wind hold would make me miss a 4" plate at 300 yards. Where I live and do most my shooting the AVERAGE wind speed is over 20 MPH. We are lucky to have a match day with 10 MPH wind gusting to 15. Last match I shot was in Kansas at Conway Lead Distributors. The wind was 20 gusting to 30. If the wind was 8 to 12 you could still easily make a wind related miss at 300 on a smaller target.

 

[goosed]

Ha ha! Touche`!

I wasn't referring to a 4" plate in that example, but let's math it up anyway.

3.6*3(00)= 10.8"

4\10.8= .4mrad

.5mrad - 1.5mrad = 1mrad

.4mrad < 1mrad

Answer= Probably not

LOL... sorry, but I just had to make you do the math after the comment about math vs anecdotes