Talk me out of a 22 Grendel over a Valkyrie....

[Precision Underground]

My name is JP and I am a speed whore. Now tell my why I shouldn't turn my accurate AR into a 22G rather than a Valkyrie. Brass prep is one reason but on the other hand if I go 22G I can use Lapua brass. So aside from getting brass necked down being a pain in the ass, why not? Anyone have real world experience with the 22G?

 

[steve123]

Now that those 88's are out my next 6mmFatRat barrel won't exist, it'll be a 22FatRat.

Maybe Lapua will grace us with factory 22G brass for 2019???

Seen Whitley's 224AR video?

 

[Precision Underground]

Now that those 88's are out my next 6mmFatRat barrel won't exist, it'll be a 22FatRat.

Maybe Lapua will grace us with factory 22G brass for 2019???

Seen Whitley's 224AR video?

I havent seen it. I am on the edge of scrapping the Val and going this direction though. Talking to Baldwin Gun Works on facebook about a barrel. He uses wilson blanks. Would wilson be on par with Criterion?

 

[Geno C.]

If you're a speed whore, the valkerie should not be what you're thinking

 

[Precision Underground]

If you're a speed whore, the valkerie should not be what you're thinking

That is what I mean. The reason I am thinking of going with an obscure cartridge that you have to neck down brass for is because I am a speed whore....

 

[Geno C.]

It's not as obscure as you think. Plenty of guys running a 22grendel or fat rat I'd you want more speed

 

[lash]

I like my Valkyrie a lot, as is evidenced by more than a few posts I've made stating as much. That being said, if you are looking for speed, it most definitely is not the choice for you. By today's standards, it runs at a relatively sedate speed, more along the lines of .308, as opposed to say 6.5 Competition Match.

 

[Precision Underground]

I like my Valkyrie a lot, as is evidenced by more than a few posts I've made stating as much. That being said, if you are looking for speed, it most definitely is not the choice for you. By today's standards, it runs at a relatively sedate speed, more along the lines of .308, as opposed to say 6.5 Competition Match.

This is why I’m a speed whore and need help. If I can push an 88 to 2750 in the Valkyrie it is supersonic past 1000. You can’t even see 224 hits past 1000 so why the hell do I need it to be going 3000?? Plus if I go with Craddock I know what I am getting and there is tons of info out there on craddock. Talk me out of this damn 22G.

 

[lash]

Lolol! I'll play devil's advocate and tell you why sometimes speed is fun. Even I sometimes like to use 123 scenars in my 260 because they go 3000 or so and are lasers inside of 700-800 or so. They just seem to hit everything I aim at. There is a thrill in that, I admit.

Most of the time, I'm running 136g Scenars at a relatively sedate 2750 because that is just such a consistent node for that cartridge and does really well even past 1200. But like you said, it gets pretty hard to see impacts at that point.

I went down the Valkyrie rabbit hole after a shooting buddy said that we should build a rifle for it, each of us. I hadn't really been paying any attention to it before then, but started looking into it and really liked the idea of building a precision AR for myself that would allow me to use the small AR action as something different and fun.

For me, it turned out pretty good like I had thought it would and is providing that fun change of pace from my very heavy match rifle. Meantime, my buddy bought a new house and hasn't had the time nor money to build one.

I think that it makes for a decent mid-size varmint rifle too.

So, long rambling comments concluding, I think that you first need to decide what it is that you think that you want. For both of us, it wasn't/isn't about need as much as wanting something different to play with. What is it that you think would float your boat right now?

 

[TonyTheTiger]

The only reason I can think of to go 224V would be the Grendel bolt breakage. I've heard of guys that have broken several bolts, all inside of 1k rounds and with factory ammo. But I personally know other guys that push handloads hard and have never broke a bolt in thousands of rounds. Makes me think the chronic bolt failure guys just have some things out of square.
All that said I'd still go 22 Grendel every day and twice on Sunday, and plan to when I burn up another barrel.

 

[Precision Underground]

Lolol! I'll play devil's advocate and tell you why sometimes speed is fun. Even I sometimes like to use 123 scenars in my 260 because they go 3000 or so and are lasers inside of 700-800 or so. They just seem to hit everything I aim at. There is a thrill in that, I admit.

Most of the time, I'm running 136g Scenars at a relatively sedate 2750 because that is just such a consistent node for that cartridge and does really well even past 1200. But like you said, it gets pretty hard to see impacts at that point.

I went down the Valkyrie rabbit hole after a shooting buddy said that we should build a rifle for it, each of us. I hadn't really been paying any attention to it before then, but started looking into it and really liked the idea of building a precision AR for myself that would allow me to use the small AR action as something different and fun.

For me, it turned out pretty good like I had thought it would and is providing that fun change of pace from my very heavy match rifle. Meantime, my buddy bought a new house and hasn't had the time nor money to build one.

I think that it makes for a decent mid-size varmint rifle too.

So, long rambling comments concluding, I think that you first need to decide what it is that you think that you want. For both of us, it wasn't/isn't about need as much as wanting something different to play with. What is it that you think would float your boat right now?

I should prob just go with a craddock Valkyrie because first and foremost it needs to be a laser. The AR I am switching is a .4-.5 gun and it would be wrong to mess that up. I have a creedmoore and a 300 Norma so it’s not like I need the speed to reach targets. And again, seeing impacts on a 224 past 1000 is nearly impossible. It will piss me off more to know I can reach 1300 and not be able to tell if I am hitting it rather than knowing that around 1000 is the max for the gun. If I knew I could get the 22G and it would be a .5 gun I would prob do it. But I don’t want to go that route and it be a barely MOA gun and be stuck. I trust craddock more than Baldwin just because there is way more info out there on craddock.

 

[Precision Underground]

The only reason I can think of to go 224V would be the Grendel bolt breakage. I've heard of guys that have broken several bolts, all inside of 1k rounds and with factory ammo. But I personally know other guys that push handloads hard and have never broke a bolt in thousands of rounds. Makes me think the chronic bolt failure guys just have some things out of square.
All that said I'd still go 22 Grendel every day and twice on Sunday, and plan to when I burn up another barrel.

Damn you, stop. My mind was set and now you are peer pressuring me lol. Who makes barrels besides Baldwin and Cannon?

 

[TonyTheTiger]

BHW and Robert Whitley are two that immediately come to mind.

 

[Shadow knows]

I have a hard time talking you out of it since I like the 6.5G so much I want to build and upper in 6mmG and 224G. I am the last person that you need to be talking you out of it cause you would have the CC broke out. Lol

 

[Precision Underground]

BHW and Robert Whitley are two that immediately come to mind.

BHW as in black hole? Count me in where the heck do I get one?

 

[TonyTheTiger]

BHW as in black hole? Count me in where the heck do I get one?

Yeah, I just looked and didn't see it listed on their site anymore. I would hope they would still make you one.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Oh and AR Performance makes them. Everyone has a different name for it though, 224 AR, 22 LBC, 224 Predator, 224 Grendel...

 

[Precision Underground]

Oh and AR Performance makes them. Everyone has a different name for it though, 224 AR, 22 LBC, 224 Predator, 224 Grendel...

Who makes a .5 MOA one for around $350 lol...

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Good question. Buy one of each and get back to us!

 

[steve123]

The cut rifled Krieger I had from whitely in 6mm ART40 shot fantastic, years ago I got 2nd place at a big match with it. IMO premium barrels are worth the money, that's hind sight.

This time around I went with a Wilson in 6mmFR to save money, it wouldn't shoot 105 hybrids well at all but the 95 SMK's shoot fine, just not as well as that 6mmART40 did, it's sub moa at least. I was struggling pretty hard to hit our 15" plate at 981Y a few days ago in medium but rapidly fluctuating winds. A .5 BC going 2870 fps.

Those 88's in my 223AI bolt rifle are a neat bullet, better than I had hoped they would be in the wind, and so light recoiling. Certainly easier to hit stuff in the wind with than the 6mmFR. Drive them close to 3000 fps and you really have a very capable long range AR that will compete with 6.5C with 140's. Out west where I live, in the cinders and dirt, I can see misses no problem with the 88's, and hits on white painted steel as well.

BTW, factory Norma 22PPC brass is available. Should hold 26-28 grains of powder. That might be worth exploring.

 

[Yondering]

I have 2 thoughts about this:

1 - build yourself a whole new upper instead of taking apart a good shooter. A receiver and handguard aren't that expensive.

2 - Necking down Grendel brass to .224 shouldn't be a "pain in the ass" unless you're doing way more work than necessary. Just run it in the die and then anneal if you want. That's as simple as it gets; .264 down to .224 is not a big step and really doesn't require anything special.

 

[Precision Underground]

I have 2 thoughts about this:

1 - build yourself a whole new upper instead of taking apart a good shooter. A receiver and handguard aren't that expensive.


2 - Necking down Grendel brass to .224 shouldn't be a "pain in the ass" unless you're doing way more work than necessary. Just run it in the die and then anneal if you want. That's as simple as it gets; .264 down to .224 is not a big step and really doesn't require anything special.

My set up is a Mega MKM so an extra $400 isn’t really in the budget. Plus having two precision 224s is redundant to me.

And from what I have read necking down takes a few steps, not just one neck down. That’s just what I have read though I have never done it. Have you?

 

[Ankeny]

The only reason I can think of not to go with a .22 Grendel (aka 224 AR) would be if you already had a truck load of 6mm Hagar brass. In that case, I would go with a .22 Beast from Robert Whitley. Of course, a real speed whore would do a large frame AR in 22 Creedmoor.

 

[Yondering]

And from what I have read necking down takes a few steps, not just one neck down. That’s just what I have read though I have never done it. Have you?

You have to remember that there is a common mindset among some reloaders, especially the older generations. that more work equals better results. Some guys will try to do a separate sizing step for every caliber between the original brass and the finished product, just because they think it must be better.
You can neck down the .040" from .264" to .224" in one step with no issues. While I don't do this specific round, I do that much and more for a number of different wildcat calibers and have found, depending on the die, you can usually size down .050-.060" in one step unless the brass is really thin and the die shoulder is steep.

The exception here is if you're trying to use a bushing die; those aren't as good for case forming. Better to just use a standard FL size die.

Even if you did just really want to include an extra step, all it would take is a 6mm PPC sizing die with the expander ball removed, and even the cheap Lee die would be fine for that.

 

[Precision Underground]

You have to remember that there is a common mindset among some reloaders, especially the older generations. that more work equals better results. Some guys will try to do a separate sizing step for every caliber between the original brass and the finished product, just because they think it must be better.
You can neck down the .040" from .264" to .224" in one step with no issues. While I don't do this specific round, I do that much and more for a number of different wildcat calibers and have found, depending on the die, you can usually size down .050-.060" in one step unless the brass is really thin and the die shoulder is steep.

The exception here is if you're trying to use a bushing die; those aren't as good for case forming. Better to just use a standard FL size die.

Even if you did just really want to include an extra step, all it would take is a 6mm PPC sizing die with the expander ball removed, and even the cheap Lee die would be fine for that.

Is there a such thing as a 22 Grendel Fl die? Or are you saying the 6mm ppc die works? Not getting what you are saying.

Edit. I see. You mean go .264 to .243 to 224.

 

[Yondering]

The Grendel case is the PPC case with the shoulder bumped .070" forward, so I'm saying you can use a commonly available 6mm PPC FL die as an intermediate step if you don't want to size down to 22 in one pass; just adjust the die so it doesn't push the shoulder back.

As to the 22 Grendel die - I'll let someone else offer a better answer on what best options are available, but besides bushing dies or custom FL dies, you can use a 22 PPC die backed off to match the shoulder dimension. That's what I'm doing with the 6mm Grendel (243 LBC) too - just a 6mm PPC die set backed off to fit.