Rifle Scopes Talk to me about CQC optics on an AR platform

TheGerman

TheGerman

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    • Jan 25, 2010
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    the Westside
    #1
    Have been thinking about finally switching over from a 1x magnification red dot type optic to an adjustable optic designed for close range shots yet with the option to go out a bit further. I'm used to the setup of an EOTech, but wanted something to allow me to get out to 250 to 400 yards as well without having to add a magnifier or switch out hardware.

    This is also the range of glass that I know the absolute least about, so wanted to see what was suggested and what would work well in the applications I was looking to utilize the scope in.

    This would be for a 16 inch carbine, flattop that besides a LaRue free float quad rail is pretty much stock. I don't plan on messing with it, and wanted something that would have the ability to be a 1x quick acquisition optic for home defense as well as to be able to go out in the desert or open terrain in Utah and hit steel plates or little critters.

    While I am shying away from the EOTech (mine took a shit from bad batteries) I do like the reticle and the size of it. For close ranges, to me at least, I haven't had anything that gets me on target faster.

    With that said, I've been looking at various short range / CQC optics and while I've learned a bit, I get more confused as I go. So far, I've looked at:

    Leupold Mk4 1-3 with the CMR reticle but have heard reports that the mount for it has issues and I am also concernd that the reticle is fairly small as well as having a BDC portion of the reticle that may not hold True at distance to the rounds I use. Also it seems to have a fairly short eye relief.

    Nightforce 1-4 NXS with the FC2 reticle, Which has almost twice the eye relief but for the life of me, I can't find any real technical illustration as to how you are to use all of the portions of the reticle. Nightforce's sight has a PDF that says it has more info, but it doesn't work. I also believe that from the pictures I have seen of the reticle, it's very small especially for very short range acquisition.

    I've looked at ACOG and while I know they are great optics, they are usually fixed magnification; I want something with the 1x option for very close ranges where I will have both eyes open. The Swarovski z6i did interest me, but the price on those is a bit steep for something I know is going to have the shit knocked out of it.

    I'm sure I've missed a lot of options, and that's why I'm posting this. What would be suggested?

    Thanks
     
    #2
    Re: Talk to me about CQC optics on an AR platform

    I had a Burris XTR-14 1-4x

    I sold it due to some financial woes at the time, but I'd buy it all over again... and probably will!

    Glass quality was pristine, very accurate 5.56 BDC reticle, and was pretty damn fast (enough that I never used the FastFireII that came with the package!) And its relatively affordable!

    IMG_0653.jpg


    Shitty cell pic of the reticle:
    IMG_0665.jpg
     
    #3
    Re: Talk to me about CQC optics on an AR platform

    German,

    Dont forget the Elcan SpecterDR 1x/4x, If you want it all in one package it doesnt get any better than this, if you can deal with the price. As a fan of the EoTech Reticle I found the Elcan to be just as fast and daylight bright as the EoTech in a carbine class I recently have taken. For distance it changes the dynamics of the "CQC" carbine. I have had the NF with the FC2 and it is a great optic, you just need to do some range work to find your hold overs, very simple with the 556 for the ranges you stated. The Elcan has a better field of vision, and a brighter reticle in daylight.

    Let me know if you go Elcan route we sell them at Oakland Tactical
     
    #4
    Re: Talk to me about CQC optics on an AR platform

    German, I am in the same boat as you. I always had a cheapo red dot on my AR and wanted to get something with a bit of magnification. With that said I just picked up a Vortex PST 1-4 mounted on a LsRue QD mount. I got it from a member on here in the optics for sale section. I should have it later this week. Once I get it mounted and some rounds through it I'll try to chime back in with my thoughts on it. I've never had a 1-4 power scope on my AR, so hopefully it fits my bill. I use my AR for mainly target shooting inside 100 yards but would like to feel comfortable with it to take coyotes and other critters out to 300 yards.
     
    #6
    Re: Talk to me about CQC optics on an AR platform

    I just use an Aimpoint without a magnafier...good enough to qualify expert everytime in the Army out to 300 on pop-up E types
     
    #7
    Re: Talk to me about CQC optics on an AR platform

    The biggest problem with most CQC scopes in the 1-4 and 1-6 range is their reticle and the ones that use uncapped turrets. I feel that since manufactures of those scopes know that since they will never be used in a combat situation they cram more crap onto their reticles to make them somehow desirable to the masses.

    The Burris MTAC has an excellent reticle designed for CQC, I'm not familiar with the XTR line mentioned above but I've used the MTAC in operations, and it's one of the better even with it's low price for a close to true 1X end.

    You could look at the GRSC 1-6 another very good scope. It was designed by Ed Verdugo and uses his patented reticle that about every major manufacture with a power CQC scope has copied in some form.
     
    #9
    Re: Talk to me about CQC optics on an AR platform

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MSG Jano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The biggest problem with most CQC scopes in the 1-4 and 1-6 range is their reticle and the ones that use uncapped turrets. I feel that since manufactures of those scopes know that since they will never be used in a combat situation they cram more crap onto their reticles to make them somehow desirable to the masses.

    The Burris MTAC has an excellent reticle designed for CQC, I'm not familiar with the XTR line mentioned above but I've used the MTAC in operations, and it's one of the better even with it's low price for a close to true 1X end.

    You could look at the GRSC 1-6 another very good scope. It was designed by Ed Verdugo and uses his patented reticle that about every major manufacture with a power CQC scope has copied in some form. </div></div>

    USO is happy to sell you capped windage and elevation knobs on their 1-4 and 1.5-6.

    Their JNG reticle at low power turns into a lit circle; the rest of the reticle goes away. Crank it up to 6 and you can do holds just fine using the reticle subtensions.

    OP, get a Aimpoint T1 and practice with it at 250-400. You'll be surprised what it can do if you approach it with an open mind.
     
    #10
    Re: Talk to me about CQC optics on an AR platform

    I'll second the Burris XTR. I know Burris doesn't get much love around here but I feel it's a great compromise between long range precision and short range fast acquisition capability.

    When I was picking out my scope I tried to be as objective as possible. I wasn't really worried about brand names. I kept coming back to the XTR reticle.

    If you look at the pic slowkota posted, there are aiming points every hundred yards out to 1000. The center dot is 100. There is another very small dot just below for 200 and another larger dot below that for 300. After that, the hash marks start.

    1000 yards with this scope is likely a stretch, but I have shot with it at 200 with fantastic results. That tiny dot is just right for precision at 200. Maybe I was lucky that day but I could keep it to about 1moa with my S&W M&P 15T.

    1x is true 1x and is very fast at short ranges. There is enough reticle there to find quickly, but not too much to be cluttered.

    I bought the package too with the scope, mount and fast fire. My fast fire was seldom used and now sits in my safe. Eventually it will end up on a pistol, but I think it's overkill as a combo with this scope.

    When I was asking questions about this scope when I was buying, I got a lot of fanboy B.S. from people that never shot with it. Nightforce, S&B... Or nothing. When I talked to people that actually used it, they really liked it. It got pretty annoying when my threads got littered with people saying just buy Trijicon and be done when I was asking specifically about the Burris.

    It really depends how you plan to shoot the gun. Most of the 1-4 do short range really well. The reticle layout determines how precise you can do long range.


    Edit, forgot this:

    http://www.burrisoptics.com/pdf/Ballistic%20556%20Gen2%20&%207.62%20Reticles.pdf
     
    #11
    Re: Talk to me about CQC optics on an AR platform

    We had a few SN4 1-4 in the system no one really cared for the JNG reticle to busy and small to quick range with (which is not our need anyway with a CQC scope) and not great at 1X with basically one aim point.

    Right now I have a S&B 1,1-4x20 PM ShortDot on a HK416, it's OK, still busy other than the dot which on several illum settings is great with NV goggles.

    The Leupold Mark 6 & 8 with their CM-Rs aren't bad, another take off of Verdugo's design.

    "TheGerman" needs to settle on what's best for him and his actual usage.
     
    #12
    Re: Talk to me about CQC optics on an AR platform

    Looked at the Burris XTR, looks again a bit busy (for me) but would have to work it through the magnifications to really judge.

    I do remember (per slowkota) The Burris glass was excellent, actually equal or better than allot of $1000. and up scopes.
     
    #13
    Re: Talk to me about CQC optics on an AR platform

    Thanks for all of the input, and thanks for the NF reticule link.

    I think the Elcan reticule is way too busy, as is the Burris. With the Elcan, the pics I saw of the entire reticule illuminated make me think that after a minute of looking through the scope, your eye will be washed out by all of the red 'glare' the reticule is putting out. The Burris is better and I've also read that the glass is very clear, but like some of you, I have a trust/quality concern issue with Burris.

    For some reason I am liking the Leupold CQT reticle as far as the size, illumination and not being too busy but wished it had some sort of minimal ranging hash marks below the circle; does this exist?

    Thanks for the input so far guys, the search continues.
     
    #16
    Re: Talk to me about CQC optics on an AR platform

    this is a topic i really enjoy, I really enjoy using 1-4 and 1-6 optics on carbines, it just really increases utility.

    that leupold is like looking through a cocktail straw, i would stay away from it.

    the nightforce fc2 1-4 is one of the more useful and robust 1-4x scopes,

    the bottom of the circle is 5 moa, the top of the triangle is 10 moa and the bottom is 15 moa, so you can use that reticle for some quick ballistic compensation, here is an example i did for a guy using a scar h and some 168 308 ammo (i think, and sorry about the poor artwork, it was done on the fly)

    fc2_zps6845eed2.png


    my main beef with the acog and elcan is the lack of eye relief, i mean your eye has to be very close to the ocular end of the scope, and for me personally i find it uncomfortable, so in comes these nice 1-4 and 1-6 type scopes,

    above someone mentioned the burris xtr, which is a very nice 1-4x scope for the money, i've used one on my 16 inch 223 using 77 grain black hills ammo and it did great out to 600 yards

    as for adjustable turrets on a 1-4x scope, it depends on what your doing, frankly, if you're shooting close out to 500 or 600 yards, the bdc type reticle is easier, but not as precise. personally, on a 1-4 or 1-6x scope, i prefer a capped turret, it's the one time i prefer bdc reticle to adjusting turrets.


    of the 1x scopes i've used, the ones i really like are

    1-4 meopta, i like the optics and the reticle, not crazy about the illumination system but it works

    meopta 1-4

    1-4 burris xtr nice scope with great value for the $, i like the illumination of the mtac better, but it works, the reticle works for me, it's quick up close, and at range, once you figure out what lines work with your load, it works great, but could use a nice ballistic calculator to back it.

    Burris xtr 1-4

    1-4 nightforce fc2 - built like a tank, good optics, the reticle is quick, you can get it with adjustable, very repeatable turrets and zero stop if you want that. i've sold this optic to guys going over seas, law enforcement, a few guys put this on dangerous game rifles, it's a very robust and useful 1-4, it doesn't have a true bullet drop, but it works

    Nightforce 1-4


    1-6 vortex razor (though it is a bit on the heavy side, and i'm still reviewing it, but so far i'm really enjoying it, very repeatable, my son got his hands on it and didn't break it, so it must be pretty robust)

    Vortex razor gen II 1-6

    1-6 swarovski, the 1-6 swarovski with the brt-i reticle is the cream of the crop for me, i've sent hunters to alaska and africa with this scope, and seen some guys really excel at 3 gun with this particular scope, the U.S. Marshals are using this scope on there rifles, at least around here. nothing but positive reviews so far. the optics and field of view are unparalleled. it's lightweight, but pretty robust. the brt-i reticle is very intuitive and is backed by a ballistic program that anyone can run.

    swarovski 1-6

    i listed all these, not because i'm indecisive, but because they all fit different price ranges.
     
    #20
    Re: Talk to me about CQC optics on an AR platform

    As far as the Burris goes we had no quality issues at all, and that's saying allot the way all optics get treated by us.

    The Burris MTAC's best feature was it's reticle, it's calibrated for M855 ammo with "dots" for 100 (with its 6 o'clock for 200), 300, 400, 500 and 600 and it's circle for any point blank work, all making for quick and easy acquisition of target.

    Again get what fits your purpose.
     
    #21
    Re: Talk to me about CQC optics on an AR platform

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bushnell Tactical 1-8x......Coming Soon.

    Turrets are exposed, but locking.</div></div>
    LoneWolf, do you remember if it is a 30mm or 34mm tube? Thanks.
     
    #24
    Re: Talk to me about CQC optics on an AR platform

    I just went with a NF with the FC2 reticle. Could not be happier.

    I think asking an optic to go from 1-6 or 1-8 is a little much and I more valued a true 1x and eye relief and a non-busy reticle.

    All those things are why I went with the NF it is built very solid and where we hunt and shoot I will usually not need to engage over 200-250 yards.

    Good luck with you decision but I'm very pleased with the NF.
     
    #25
    Re: Talk to me about CQC optics on an AR platform

    Check over at Brian Enos forum too. Those guys all run with 1-4 and 1-6 glass. I had a MTAC it was ok but I didn think it was as fast as my Aimpoints but I did like the magnification when needed.
     
    #26
    Re: Talk to me about CQC optics on an AR platform

    So after reading reviews on countless optics, looking at reticles and going through what I need/want in an optic I think I may have narrowed it to 2:

    Meopta Meostar 1-4x22 with the tactical knot reticle

    And

    Trijicon tr24 with the picket post/ German reticle in either amber or red

    Things I liked:

    Obviously the reliability of the trijicon reticle and that both scopes are daytime visible

    The Meopta is designed for the M193 round which is what I use almost all of the time in the rifle this will go on

    Once really understanding the triangle reticle it seems to make things almost too simple; initially I thought the reticle was a limiting factor but now see how it can easily be employed for both elevation and windage holdovers

    Both are similar in weight, length, eye relief as well as price and I understand they are both quality glass and put together well.

    It's pretty even for me. I like the meopt but like the trijicon picket reticle as well...what suggestions do you guys have?
     
    #28
    Re: Talk to me about CQC optics on an AR platform

    I've looked at the viper, the thing I can't get past is that if shooting with both eyes open, I would think that the canted illumination switch would really get in the way of your vision on the left side.

    Anyone have one of these? Also, is the reticle visible during the daytime?
     
    #29
    Re: Talk to me about CQC optics on an AR platform

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheGerman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've looked at the viper, the thing I can't get past is that if shooting with both eyes open, I would think that the canted illumination switch would really get in the way of your vision on the left side.

    Anyone have one of these? Also, is the reticle visible during the daytime?</div></div>

    yes... and not in the way at all, on 1x its just like a red dot...

     
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