Rifle Scopes Tangent Theta in Spuhr - Parallax Binding

[Saf3sh00t3r]

Really dumb point to make here but are you all sure you aren't overtightening the spurh mounts and bending the tubes? Please don't flame me but the Spurh has multiple bolts (very similar to the forks on a motorbike) and what can happen is as you torque one of them, the others will then seem loose so you go and torque them up as well and around the pattern again. It's very easy to end up over tightening all of the bolts.

Assuming you’re using the opposite-points to tighten such as middle bottom, top bottom, right bottom, right top, etc.. with a torque device set to 15 to 20 inch pounds how would you over tighten?

That’s the whole point of a torque wrench device.

Not being facetious really wondering this point.

 

[patriot07]

Honest question - has anyone had these issues with TT in anything other than a Spuhr?

Thinking there are lots of great options at a significantly lower price that I haven't heard of any problems with. If it ain't broke...

 

[MOUNTIC]

Honest question - has anyone had these issues with TT in anything other than a Spuhr?

Thinking there are lots of great options at a significantly lower price that I haven't heard of any problems with. If it ain't broke...

I had no issues in a Geissele mount on a SR25 gas rifle. No issues in a Spuhr. No issues in Seekins. Im curious also if anyone else had these issues in other mounts..

 

[bourbonbent]

I was gonna stay out of this, but at this point I can’t do it anymore.

I don’t make a lot of money, and I’ve seriously, seriously considered scraping the money for a TT together. However...

US Optics did a test back in the day where they drove framing nails into wood with their scopes. Nightforce does all sorts of crazy shit to theirs. Everyone knows about the NXS with the bullet hole. Even the ubiquitous Leupold Mark 4 has a reputation for durability and reliability.

Why would I spend the money TT gets for a scope, when I see as many issues as I have with them? Is the scope tube so thin that 15in/lbs could or could not deform it and freeze the parallax? The turrets and glass can be as nice as anything’s ever been, but what good is a scope that’s so delicate, on a field rifle? 15in/lbs is not very much torque.

If it’s this common of a problem, why should anyone go with a TT over NF, S&B, Kahles, Leupold, Vortex, ZCO, Hensoldt, etc? They’re marketed as a professional rifle scope, there shouldn’t be any failure engineered into the optic. You shouldn’t call with a problem and get “tolerances are tight,” not on an optic worth more than my truck.

To reiterate, I don’t care how clear it is, how nice the turrets are, if you can’t even mount it without squeezing the main tube enough to freeze or limit parallax, why exactly is it being sold as a professional rifle scope? I can’t understand how it’s a known quality mount’s fault, it’s not like OP stuck it in a vertically split pair of Warne’s.

Serious question, is there a single TT owner on this board that would drive nails with their scope? Would you be confident it’d be functional falling down the side of a mountain? What about bumping it into a barricade? I’d be happy to hear from TT or anyone privy to their actual specs about this. Sounds to me like the main tube is awfully fucking thin.

 

[hk dave]

Hell no I wouldn’t use my $4700 TT to drive nails. I’d use a $20 hammer!

 

[bourbonbent]

I’d use one of my dozen hammers, that’s not the point.

 

[hk dave]

I’d use one of my dozen hammers, that’s not the point.

Sorry man I had to, it was too easy.

 

[blbennett1288]

Serious question, is there a single TT owner on this board that would drive nails with their scope? Would you be confident it’d be functional falling down the side of a mountain? What about bumping it into a barricade? I’d be happy to hear from TT or anyone privy to their actual specs about this. Sounds to me like the main tube is awfully fucking thin.

This issue has been around since Premier & Heritage. Premier & Heritage has been used and still are used by our armed forces in both the 3-15 and 5-25 models. For a scope that is discontinued and parts not readily available they still sell for around ~2k in the PX.

I have mine in a Spuhr and torqued to 25in-lbs. No issues.

Mine has not been a safe queen. It routinely gets shoved into barricades/rocks/tires/trees/ect, rides in the ATV, and has taken a couple tumbles. All while maintaining perfect functionality and zero.

Purely speculation on my part, but with the onset of issues around the release of the H59 and Gen3XR, I assume there are growing pains with the current demand for production. It is at the very least suspicious.

 

[hk dave]

For what it’s worth, had my TT in a Spuhr shooting 338lm without any issues.

 

[bourbonbent]

This issue has been around since Premier & Heritage. Premier & Heritage has been used and still are used by our armed forces in both the 3-15 and 5-25 models. For a scope that is discontinued and parts not readily available they still sell for around ~2k in the PX.

I have mine in a Spuhr and torqued to 25in-lbs. No issues.

Mine has not been a safe queen. It routinely gets shoved into barricades/rocks/tires/trees/ect, rides in the ATV, and has taken a couple tumbles. All while maintaining perfect functionality and zero.

Purely speculation on my part, but with the onset of issues around the release of the H59 and Gen3XR, I assume there are growing pains with the current demand for production. It is at the very least suspicious.

I’m familiar with the PH stuff, and it’s use in combat. I remember when they were being developed and all the whispering about it back then, and wanted one bad, but as a young Joe, I didn’t get paid PH money, so I drooled instead.

This is the kind of reply I was hoping for. What I’m driving at, is TT has a reputation, and trust is built on reputation and performance. Confidence in the product is essential for me at this price point.

I’m not even saying I wouldn’t buy one, I’m just asking the obvious WTF-over.

 

[samb300]

I did hear back from Armament Tech...that their contact is on vacation and they'll get back to me next week when he's in.

@BigJimFish thanks for the info on M10 rings. I have never used them before, but if/when I try them out I will approach the 55 in-lbs with caution.

@jim996 I torqued the 6 screws (per cap) on the Spuhr using their bolt pattern, trying both the 15 in-lb Fix it Stick and a Borka tool. In both cases, the parallax binding occurred solely because of the front ring. I didn't torque beyond 15 in-lb for the rear ring, but I imagine that I could go up from there and not affect the parallax.

@patriot07 I don't have any other rings on hand to try, but I am waiting for a response from Armament Tech before I spend more money.

@bourbonbent I won't disagree with you. Granted, my main use (recreation, shooting matches) isn't some sort of life and death scenario, and I'm not going to pretend it ever would be. I have faith that my AI will work under any circumstances, but the TT seizing up with 15 in-lbs in a Spuhr is concerning to say the least. The G2 Razor I have used the past 3 years has instilled that confidence with its reliability, so even with the glass or features arguably lagging the TT and other "premium" optics, you can't argue with the fact that it keeps on working (and in a Spuhr mount haha).

My biggest gripe would be that SOME work in a Spuhr (up to 25 in-lb) and SOME do not. If mine was like every other one on the planet and didn't play nice, I wouldn't have much to gripe about. But if one user can go to 25 in-lb with no issue, and mine is bound up at 12 in-lb, then something isn't right.

Sam

 

[bourbonbent]

@samb300 no crazy life or death here either, just the region I hunt. Public land is in the Ozarks and Ouachitas, and it’s steep/rocky. I fell on my ass down a hillside out there last bow season. The spots I shoot at are the same way, a bad footfall and I could easily be landing on a turret or obj housing, right into a rock or boulder. I miss Arizona lol.

 

[gconnoyer]

I have my TT and Premier in Badgers with no issues. I know Spuhrs are extremely high quality and super popular, but I just dont see why.

With that being said, I dont think there should be any issues with any scope in a quality mount.
Especially one built for military use (PH)
I cant see the tube being so thin that it would crush and bind with just 15inlb.

They arent light scopes by any means either. My Premier is 38.1oz and my TT is 40.5

 

[blbennett1288]

I know Spuhrs are extremely high quality and super popular, but I just dont see why.

1.) Lower Profile. No nuts hanging off the side
2.) Level Wedge.
3.) Ability to mount accessories onto the mount directly and not rely on the scope tube
4.) for 30/34/35mm tubes they pretty much have every option you could want. 36mm they are getting there.

 

[FourT6and2]

My biggest gripe would be that SOME work in a Spuhr (up to 25 in-lb) and SOME do not.

Seems like the common variable, then, is the one mounting the scope. If some people can mount a TT in a Spuhr without problems, and some people mount a TT in a Spuhr and experience problems, either the scopes are so different and varied due to manufacturing defects... OR... some people don't know how to properly mount a scope and some people do. OR... as a third option, something is wrong with the mount. Those are really the only three options.

I can say I have two TT scopes. Both mounted in Seekins rings and torqued to 22 in/lb. Zero problems. Have had them for a few years now.

 

[samb300]

Seems like the common variable, then, is the one mounting the scope. If some people can mount a TT in a Spuhr without problems, and some people mount a TT in a Spuhr and experience problems, either the scopes are so different and varied due to manufacturing defects... OR... some people don't know how to properly mount a scope and some people do. OR... as a third option, something is wrong with the mount. Those are really the only three options.

I can say I have two TT scopes. Both mounted in Seekins rings and torqued to 22 in/lb. Zero problems. Have had them for a few years now.

Anything is possible, but I really can't imagine how this issue would be operator error on my part. Following the Spuhr bolt-tightening pattern, screwing them barely hand tight, then gently torquing them to 15 in-lbs using two different types of torque wrenches, all yielded a locked up parallax knob (only from the front ring).

I have another Spuhr, but my Razor is in it and didn't want to do the swap game to confirm whether or not it was the mount. It certainly could be a bad Spuhr mount, just as much as it could be a bad (or tolerance-stacked) TT.

 

[FourT6and2]

Anything is possible, but I really can't imagine how this issue would be operator error on my part. Following the Spuhr bolt-tightening pattern, screwing them barely hand tight, then gently torquing them to 15 in-lbs using two different types of torque wrenches, all yielded a locked up parallax knob (only from the front ring).

I have another Spuhr, but my Razor is in it and didn't want to do the swap game to confirm whether or not it was the mount. It certainly could be a bad Spuhr mount, just as much as it could be a bad (or tolerance-stacked) TT.

Right. It could be a lot of things. None of which it seems you've checked. When there is a problem with something, you need to troubleshoot. Troubleshooting involves eliminating one variable at a time until you find the culprit.

As far as torque wrenches go, I'll say I would NOT trust any torque wrench specifically marketed toward gun owners. They are all junk. While I doubt a few % in/lb in either direction will make a huge difference, just understand that firearm-specific torque wrenches are all cheap garbage. There's a reason they only cost $30-$100. Good torque wrenches are expensive for a reason.

As far as mounts go, who knows... maybe yours has an uneven surface or something.

As far as the scope goes, who knows... maybe it's out of spec or broken.

As far as the person doing the mounting goes... maybe they're doing something incorrectly but think they aren't.

Anything is possible. You'll have to do some legwork to narrow it down.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I’ve owned TT, but not long enough to beat the shit out of them like I normally do.

I have a couple zcomps in spuhr that are torqued to 25 in/lbs on all screws. They have fallen off chairs and vices onto tile floor(accident and not sure where they actually landed, if on the optic or not), and bashed them onto every prop you can imagine.

So far, no issues. Ask @trophyhunter, I could break a ball bearing.

 

[samb300]

@FourT6and2 damn dude. You think I’m some sort of moron that A) doesn’t know how to torque something to 15 in-lbs and B) doesn’t know how to eliminate variables to solve a problem?

Thanks for the pro tips lol. I’ll go out right now and buy another Spuhr, a couple sets of rings, a Snap-On torque wrench, and hell, might as well pick up another TT for validation purposes. Maybe my idiocy has gone unnoticed when mounting other (less than $4500) scopes in other Spuhr mounts, and now it’s finally catching up to me.

Or maybe when the parallax ring bound up so hard that it would only turn for roughly 75% of its travel, I contacted TT directly and they wanted me to send the scope in for inspection?

 

[samb300]

@Dthomas3523 thanks for the input regarding your experience with ZCO scopes. I have been following that thread and the reviews you have put out.

I was seriously considering the ZCO 5-27 as well as the NF 7-35 before going with the TT. I’d like to see a little more time in the field with the ZCO’s but so far it seems like they’re pretty damn solid.

I will see what TT says, I’m assuming it will either get a clean bill of health or need a repair of some sort. Then when I get it back...I might just stick with my tried and true Razor (in a Spuhr lol) for the rest of this season, then pursue a ZCO for next year. To be honest, I could use the TT cash for machining my AI chassis. And I don’t have the history of breaking stuff that you seem to have haha, but I’m 100% confident in my Razor getting bashed around the last 3 years.

 

[morganlamprecht]

i bought another "broken" gen 2 razor last weekend lol

im 3/3 on "broken" razors working perfectly now

it works like a champ...buddy needed it and i didnt so he bought it off me

 

[Ravenyzf-r6]

I recently purchased a TT Gen3XR off the PX and mounted it in a Spuhr with no issues at 15inlbs. I’ll look for my 18/20inlb to test more torque on it.

 

[Dthomas3523]

i bought another "broken" gen 2 razor last weekend lol

im 3/3 on "broken" razors working perfectly now

it works like a champ...buddy needed it and i didnt so he bought it off me

Probably the toughest (if not, then definitely dollar for dollar toughness) optic on the market.

 

[Rogerthatout]

In response to original topic,
I've had a tt 5-25 for a couple years now,. Torqued according to what they suggested at the time.

2 years later, in a routine checking, I didnt like how loose they felt so I went to 25in lbs. and marked them w a sharpie so I can watch them and make sure they dont sneak loose.

15 and 20 seems light to me (to the touch). I've never had binding

 

[davere]

i bought another "broken" gen 2 razor last weekend lol

im 3/3 on "broken" razors working perfectly now

it works like a champ...buddy needed it and i didnt so he bought it off me

Funnily enough, I had a friend do the same (bought a supposedly problematic Razor... and it works perfectly).

 

[viking78]

I have Spuhr mounts on all my scopes, never had zero issues.
I think that the scope main tube is just so thin, and might be also not straight, and that causes the problem.
I have Kahles, Steiner, Minox, Vortex scopes and Spuhr does the job, never use anything else.
I had once Burris XTR II and i try to mount it with Sako optilock 34mm rings, disaster, parallax did not worked, swap it to Spuhr, and it had no problems.