The question is not about the use - it's about the 'use-case', the "When?" and "Why?".
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Tango 51 KIlls Armed Assailant
- Thread starter Black Ops
- Start date
The question is not about the use - it's about the 'use-case', the "When?" and "Why?".
BG should have been a Hider. That way he would have known to just surrender when the Tango 51 came out.
Congratulations also goes to Glock, S&W, Sig (etc etc) for building useful tools cops can use to shoot people with!
As long as they are pieces of shit like that guy. What man points a gun at a woman? A guy that needs to do the Tango shuffle that's who!
There are situations no one wants to get into, and there are few people who can resolve them. But if you want to protect and serve the public from the dangerous you better have to right tools for the job.
If you think my cynicism is reserved for LAPD only, you completely missed my point. I dont trust most law enforcement agencies period. Ive been around the game long enough to take with a grain of salt what I read from the media regarding an incident like this. Remember, their only source of information is the police dept itself....the other guy is dead.
So rather than celebrate that someone is dead and use that to promote a product, I would rather sit back and hope that justice takes its course. If a fair, unbiased and informed investigation reveals that the officer acted properly and killed a dangerous person, that is awesome. I would still say a little tact and professionalism over the taking of a persons life should be displayed....I mean lets face it, the thread title is a bit ridiculous. I thought gun lovers always say guns dont kill people, people kill people. Now its the rifle that deserves accolades?
My point is this. The rapid militarization of our police is disturbing. Todays police see every problem as a nail.......when all you see are nails, everyone wants to pull out the hammer.
A couple bad turns in life, a few misunderstandings and poor decisions.....anyone can end up with their life in the hands of an over anxious law enforcement officer.
So before any investigation is completed or the first scrap of evidence is turned in, someones death is shamelessly being used to promote a product with absolutely no proof that what happened is what should have happened.
Sorry, I am sure this Mike fellow is a great guy and by all accounts he builds an amazing rifle.....its still bad form.
And then there are those who have only a hammer and perceive every problem as a nail. As we argued against the gun-grabbers, the tool is not the problem, it's the mindset.
Edit: While typing, Lofty just beat me to my point with his post above.
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Painting with a broad brush there. You haven't received any business from me yet, and you won't after this. Just thought I'd tell you since you are quick to claim as a business owner you like to hear complaints since it's an opportunity to fix a problem.
Domestic disturbance called in around 5:30 am, neatly wrapped up in the news by 10:23 am. That is impressive for a "barricade" situation involving "negotiators" and a SWAT team.
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If my broadly worded and completely unspecific statement meant to try and ratchet down someone that was in my opinion being a little too harsh toward the cops and Tac Ops in this instance is to be construed by you as an affront on all the good cops out there... Have at it. It is very likely not in my best interest to do business with someone so easily offended.
Wow, first off the man (Mike; Tac ops) is proud that his rifle was used as it was intended to be used; good guy kills bad guy!!
Where's the fuckin problem in that!
Oh wait did he use a tango
.....
Where's the fuckin problem in that!
Oh wait did he use a tango
.....
Let us break this down for you........The OP built a rifle used by a highly trained law enforcement professional. The piece of equipment used is a highly regarded and well built piece of weaponry. Used responsibly this fine piece of equipment helped to stop a criminal from killing and/or shooting anyone else. I would be proud also if one of my products was used to stop a madman on a killing spree.
^This
But let's thank Mike for implicitly raising an important point - accountability.
Mike apparently takes great pride in his product and instead of us expecting to just believe his claims he mentions facts/events that can support his claims. He holds himself accountable.
The other part of this discussion is the question of how much we, The People, should trust the claims of the police. If we have an entity that decides whether something gets pursued as a crime and to what extend, have the same entity serve the sentence, and finally the same entity evaluate and report whether the previous actions were appropriate and legal, then we have ZERO guarantee for the validity of any of these claims.
My personal experience is that most LEOs are decent people. But once in a while we end up with a fox guarding the hen-house and it would be prudent to keep a very close eye on the fox. The problem is that the fox hides behind a blue wall of silence and cover-ups. Even his trustworthy colleagues are reminded that interfering with the fox could be a show-stoppers for their careers https://secure.policeone.com/previe...ruption-on-your-PD-can-be-bad-for-your-career. How naive do we have to be to assume that the police will police itself?
Arrests typically lead to an evaluation of the case by another party (DA, Judge, Jury) and that approach has served us well. If OTOH the suspect dies during investigation, arrest, or pursuit by the police, the majority of the cases are left to 'internal affairs'. An external review happens only if there is public outcry or political agenda like the current FBI investigation on civil rights grounds. Who protects the 'civil rights' of the common man everyday?
Why should we care about what happens to 'criminals'? Mainly, because the final determination of who is a criminal should be made in a court of law and not by the pull of a trigger. Specifically, because it is just a matter of time until a gun-owner in one of the anti-gun states is going to make a 'furtive movement' during search or seizure. Do we then want to count on the police, the media, or Holder to ensure that justice is served?
The problem of police accountability (or lack thereof) needs to be addressed NOW. Not just for the benefit of what the currently governing party considers minorities but for every citizen.
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I think you kinda got a little liberal with your interpretation of the events as reported. Madman on a killing spree? LOL!
I didnt need any ratcheting down...I wasnt irate or anything.
I just have an inherent distrust of anything I hear from the media, especially when it is related to anything to do with a government entity or agency. Personally I think its an Americans patriotic duty to question their government, to maintain a slight distrust and question them at every opportunity.
I would like to know more about the madman and the 'killing spree' before breaking out in cheers.
"In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up." Martin Niemöller
Looks like some folks got some sand in their vag....I really don't know how in the fuck this got all fucked up! It seemed pretty simple to me and others on here. Killing is a necessary evil that needs to be done from time to time. Their are three types of people, wolves, sheep, and sheep dogs ( self explanitory I would hope).
werd
But I think most folks are grossly overreacting in this thread. This was a police sharpshooter who handled a hostage situation. This was not Ruby Ridge or careless cops shooting up LA for the fun of it.
The weaker the argument, the stronger the words.
We have seen military personnel being indicted for despicable acts, we did not find it honorable when 'snipers' prayed on unarmed civilians in former Yugoslavia, but in all these years we never saw one case where even the question was raised whether or not SWAT teams crossed the line. Either they are super-humans or we have pretty good blinders.
Those were not my words, they are from Lofty. Go back up the thread some and see. But you did read the whole thread before commenting, right???
The author of this analogy also mentions the danger of rogue sheepdogs and how to deal with them. If we ignores that this possibility exists, we do so at the peril of freedom, liberty and justice.
Whatever world you believe it is ok for someone to spray bullets into a populated area and not be confronted by well armed law enforcement feel free to move there and enjoy yourself.
I won't wade into the often placed deserved cynicism toward LE, and whatever arguments/debates are taking place in this thread to that effect, though everyone has expressed valid points and concerns. Irrespective of whatever aftermath or laws that are inherent to your state of residence, any one of us would be in the right to stop some piece of shit from violently injuring or killing another. Like it or not, there are plenty of people that deserve to be, and should be, in the dirt. Granted that decision shouldn't be made arbitrarily from the end of a barrel, there are of course times where circumstance dictates such.
I believe, and would certainly hope/expect that Mike wouldn't be posting this were he short on details, or had any inclination that this shoot was not justified. Certain facts of the situation, including the aforementioned volatility, have not yet been released publically, and even with that, there will rightfully be cynics, but of anyone posting thus far, Mike is the only one that has been given a firsthand account. (Unless of course you were with the SO and on-site.) For what it's worth, he has told the LAPD to pound sand for numerous reasons, when it comes to the direct acquisition of his builds, so read that how you will - he does not capriciously dole his rifles out to anyone holding a dollar; he's not hurting for business.
Mike is a great guy who builds a damn fine rifle. He hasn't posted anything that any one of us wouldn't have readily come across on the news or internet, and is simply highlighting the use of his rifles; not reveling in the ending of a life. It's no different than the example shown from earlier this year when a wanted felon was intentionally shot in the hand. His builds are used across the spectrum of paper punching, ringing steel, and when necessary, ending a life to preserve a life/lives, and he can rightfully take pride in such.
All the more impressive considering he builds on that inferior Remy 700 action.
Man Killed By Deputies During Bellflower Standoff | NBC Southern California
Bellflower barricade suspect killed; hostage freed | abc7.com
Woman shot in hand by deputies following Spokane Valley standoff - Spokesman.com - March 4, 2014
I believe, and would certainly hope/expect that Mike wouldn't be posting this were he short on details, or had any inclination that this shoot was not justified. Certain facts of the situation, including the aforementioned volatility, have not yet been released publically, and even with that, there will rightfully be cynics, but of anyone posting thus far, Mike is the only one that has been given a firsthand account. (Unless of course you were with the SO and on-site.) For what it's worth, he has told the LAPD to pound sand for numerous reasons, when it comes to the direct acquisition of his builds, so read that how you will - he does not capriciously dole his rifles out to anyone holding a dollar; he's not hurting for business.
Mike is a great guy who builds a damn fine rifle. He hasn't posted anything that any one of us wouldn't have readily come across on the news or internet, and is simply highlighting the use of his rifles; not reveling in the ending of a life. It's no different than the example shown from earlier this year when a wanted felon was intentionally shot in the hand. His builds are used across the spectrum of paper punching, ringing steel, and when necessary, ending a life to preserve a life/lives, and he can rightfully take pride in such.
All the more impressive considering he builds on that inferior Remy 700 action.
Man Killed By Deputies During Bellflower Standoff | NBC Southern California
Bellflower barricade suspect killed; hostage freed | abc7.com
Woman shot in hand by deputies following Spokane Valley standoff - Spokesman.com - March 4, 2014
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In this case I am inclined to trust Mike's judgement and that is why I hoped he had more intel on this case. But who is going to do the vetting on the next case?
The point I wanted to make is that we, the People, need to pay a little more attention to what happens in the shadows, behind the cordon, with badges/ID removed and replaces by balaclavas, the details protected by OPSEC. History shows us clearly that human nature does not improve in the shadows.
The police itself reasons that policing leads to fewer crimes. We need to start policing the police - especially those who operate hidden from the public's eyes (i.e. the omnipresent smartphones).
Poor word choice on my part. Sorry about that. You and I are on the same page I think. I agree that government should be questioned. I simply am not going to shed a tear for a shitbag holding a hostage. Regardless of how I feel about the current mindset of most law enforcement, in this situation it's pretty clear that it was a bad guy that got shot. Good guys don't take hostages, even when pressed into extraordinary circumstances. It wouldn't hurt my feelings if every crack head, drug dealer, armed robber, home intruder, gangster, or rapist in the whole goddamn world got shot in the head by one of Mike's rifles. As long as no innocents took a pill, I'd not lose a second's sleep.
That doesn't mean I'm pro-cop, or anti-cop. That means I'm anti-shitbag.
I get it, trust me. It is a case by case basis and this one appears to be a good shoot. If it wasn't I wouldn't be here commenting in its favor. People got all worked up over nothing. Glad no one else got hurt.
"Spraying bullets" was not reported in this case and that term reminds me of the playbook of the anti-gunners: Overwhelming force of a militarized police is necessary to protect the citizens from each other.
If you prefer this ideology, you seem to have have more global options to move to - just google "Police State".
Wait till the girlfriend (who was yelling out the window for help right before the shot was fired) changes sides and testifies against the police; you know its going to happen, it always does in these domestic cases when police use force.
What kind of conundrum will they face if it turns out that the guy had no weapon? What about when the girlfriend testifies to the jury that she was not a hostage and was in no danger? What will the media think when his crying mother gets on the podium and tells of her "good boy" that was mentally ill but wasn't a danger to anyone?
The cop that took this shot is going to have a rough few months ahead. What a horrible job, I couldn't do it.
What kind of conundrum will they face if it turns out that the guy had no weapon? What about when the girlfriend testifies to the jury that she was not a hostage and was in no danger? What will the media think when his crying mother gets on the podium and tells of her "good boy" that was mentally ill but wasn't a danger to anyone?
The cop that took this shot is going to have a rough few months ahead. What a horrible job, I couldn't do it.
I'm trying to figure out which rifle can't hit a head sized target at 50-75 yards. I don't see the big deal as far as the rifle's accuracy claims when you're close range like that. What's a head measure, something like 8"x8"? I don't know the details, but I bet they waited until they had a clean shot, then took it. Pretty sure a factory Remington with factory match ammo could have made that shot just as easily. The skill in that shot comes from the guy behind the rifle knowing when to take the shot and not getting too excited in the moment before squeezing off in a life or death situation.
If the sniper had missed and hit the hostage, would it have said anything about the lack of quality of a Tac Ops rifle or would we be discussing the lack of skill of the SWAT trained sniper that missed the shot?
Given the above, I know I'd certainly be proud of anything I did to contribute to the saving of a life, be it the building of a rifle, teaching someone how to do CPR, or pulling someone from a burning building. At the end of the day Tac Ops provided a product that did its job and saved taxpayers a boat load of taxpayer dollars to house a criminal who may have otherwise killed a woman and gone to jail for life. I'd say the investment in that rifle by the SWAT team has paid for itself.
If the sniper had missed and hit the hostage, would it have said anything about the lack of quality of a Tac Ops rifle or would we be discussing the lack of skill of the SWAT trained sniper that missed the shot?
Given the above, I know I'd certainly be proud of anything I did to contribute to the saving of a life, be it the building of a rifle, teaching someone how to do CPR, or pulling someone from a burning building. At the end of the day Tac Ops provided a product that did its job and saved taxpayers a boat load of taxpayer dollars to house a criminal who may have otherwise killed a woman and gone to jail for life. I'd say the investment in that rifle by the SWAT team has paid for itself.
I'm not easily offended, bud, I just take people at face value. You were all too happy to jump on the kick the cops train when it pulled in here and made several comments that are pretty openly anti-cop. That's fine, its a free country, but at least own it like Lofty. Don't back peddle in one spot when you are joining in earlier in the same thread. It's not your job to ratchet anybody down, we have moderators for that.
Ummm, I don't have a dog in this fight, but LACSD has a track record that is just as bad. They killed an innocent man "mistakenly" during their last hostage situation 2 weeks ago, and the same "experts" killed another innocent during a hostage situation 3 months before that; Sheriff's official to review mistaken shooting of Pico Rivera man - LA Times
This is a pretty common theme in the greater Los Angeles area. Leadership in LACSD and LAPD are anti-2nd gun-grabbers of the highest order. A law abiding citizen has to watch his back from the thugs with sagging pants and the thugs with the badges. They raid gun stores and the residences of armed citizens regularly. I am one of the fortunate few to have a CCW in this state, and get that same feeling in my stomach when I see a cop as I do when I cross paths with a thug. You are Lucky enough to not live in a police state like I do. Family and business obligations keep me here.
Don't worry about the shooter, he has enough fanboys (even on this site) who want every 'scumbag' to be shot until proven innocent - wait, that doesn't even work - whatever.
Individuals who sign up for these 'tactical' jobs have decided to kill someone long before they pull the trigger. They are trained to "kick ass" and are desensitized to the consequences. They are waiting to be deployed to a 'critical' situation and their business is booming as more and more PDs call situations 'critical'. You never know if there are weapons involved, mass shooters, gangs, terrorists, etc. So what could possibly go wrong when sending out the SWAT team to resolve a case of domestic violence?
I sincerely hope that there was more to this case in terms of danger to the public than what was reported. (Remember, the SCOTUS ruled that the police is not responsible for resolving your personal problems).
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Your delusional line of thinking is astounding!! So you really think a criminal thinks about backdrop and where bullets go????????? There are police and then there are SWAT teams that have the training and weapons needed to handle dynamic situations basic patrol officers are not equipped to handle so contrary to your belief police across the country are NOT becoming militarized. I suggest you go do a ride along with your local agency and get a real world point of view for once.
According to the news reports, 'authorities' (I just LOVE that word) have not confirmed whether the suspect was armed and certainly not that bullets were "sprayed". I know enough regular cops to have a glimpse of what is going on in 'merica. The same people confirm that more and more cases get escalated to the 'tactical', 'dynamic' level. THAT is the militarization of policing and these 'tactical' units operate mostly in the shadows. When people get killed, our justice system attempts to remove all shadows. I am expecting no more and no less from the work of the police.
Alternatively we can keep slumbering, blindly assuming that good rifles are only used by good people against bad actors and only when necessary.
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... but it's your job to misconstrue whatever I say, and make a public declaration of what I believe, "bud?"
I can be found on the "kick the cop train" as you put it, in many threads, yet in this one I'm siding with them. I call it like I see it, and have no beef with good cops. I know you'd like to paint me as someone that blindly hates all cops, and doesn't look at each situation with fresh eyes... and I'm fine with you thinking whatever happens to pass through your brain. So you don't like it when I'm against cops, but you don't like it when I'm saying they were justified either? You and my ex-wife would get along great!
All I can take away from this thread is:
Tac Ops rifle = 1
Shitbag = 0
... and:
LawnMM doesn't want to do business with me.
Maybe I'm wrong, and this guy didn't deserve to die. I guess I'll never know. To me, it seemed like he probably did. I could be wrong. I've not expressed uber-strong sentiment one way or the other. I just thought people were taking Mike's post out of context.
Last week I threw a dumbass out of my store that was claiming he wanted a "sniper rifle" to protect himself against the "right wing republican extremists" in the world. Lots of people aren't a fit for my business. The more open I am about my views, the less bullshit I need to put up with from people that don't see things the way I do. Sure, lots of other businesses out there don't care who you are or what you stand for... they just want your money. We're not one of them. If you think I'm a blinded serial cop-hater and that's why you don't want to buy from me... so be it. ... but that doesn't mean its true, nor does it mean I have to stand by while you post that bullshit in public without me setting the record straight for the other critical thinkers among us. My customers know better, and they can speak for me when it comes to how we service them. If you don't want to be counted among them, that's your choice.
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On behalf of the life saved and the rest of us. Thank you Mike. I am glad there are people who care to put the time and attention to detail in building a rifle that gave the officer the conference they needed to make a life Saving shot. I will probably never have the opportunity to own one of your rifles. I tend to build my own and they work for what I need. However it is easy to see your passionate about your end product. Be proud!
