Precision Rifle Gear Tango Innovations FIRE4000 WMLRF Initial Impressions

[GenericBadGuy]

It is pretty stupid that it doesn't come with environmental sensors. No, I don't want yet another thing to hang on my rifle that is dependent on my phone or kestrel.

AB being reactive to this criticism online is a pretty shitty look.

You can't make an accurate temperature sensor work. <Ignores the Impact 4000, Mars Lc, Wilcox Raptar>

I'm going to laugh at all the defensive nut hanging if the new Sig WLRF comes with AB and environmental sensors.

 

[Maurygold]

 

[skyewalker]

A lot of us have been grabbing enviro on the kestrel and locking it in with success for a long time and prefer it that way. This feels to me like a preference thing, if you want it onboard, this device is obviously not for you at this time. We are kinda beating a dead horse here guys.

 

[Maurygold]

A lot of us have been grabbing enviro on the kestrel and locking it in with success for a long time and prefer it that way. This feels to me like a preference thing, if you want it onboard, this device is obviously not for you at this time. We are kinda beating a dead horse here guys.

a long time? it's been out for a month.

The influencers and company are all being very quiet about these shortcomings and blatant attempt to make the unit cheaper without reflecting that in the price.

 

[GenericBadGuy]

A lot of us have been grabbing enviro on the kestrel and locking it in with success for a long time and prefer it that way. This feels to me like a preference thing, if you want it onboard, this device is obviously not for you at this time. We are kinda beating a dead horse here guys.

Yeah, so that might happen when there is a valid critique of a product guys. Maybe we all shouldn't be defensive about that. You know in a thread about a product that came out last month.

To your other point, just because I use a Kestrel for PRS doesn't mean I want that same workflow for other rifle uses. Many of the other similar products, except for this one, have these features. Since we are all gatekeeping on this, I will leave it at.

 

[skyewalker]

@Maurygold Yes a long time. Like since the Kestrel hit the market…

There are maybe a handful of “influencers” (lol) that received unit for free that I’ve seen? Idk, I’m honestly not that plugged in but they were all upfront about enviros not being included on board, including myself in the half ass of a review I wrote, or am I wrong?

@GenericBadGuy yeah man, most of the others are on board. I’m just saying we are going in circles here. Tango only has inclinometer on board as far as sensors go, enviro has to come in from an external device.

 

[carbonbased]

Yeah, so that might happen when there is a valid critique of a product guys. Maybe we all shouldn't be defensive about that. You know in a thread about a product that came out last month.

So, let take this out of the realm of pure opinion (mine included) and at least run some numbers, shall we?

A Kestrel has a temp sensor located outside of a housing, so it can cool down fast once waved or spun.

It is my assumption that weather-sealed devices have their temp sensor buried inside the device, hopefully somewhat sealed away from any electronic heat.

If this is correct, I then assume that the WMLRF, in this case, heats up like a car’s interior. A secondary assumption is there is no fancy software way to minimize what we’re calling solar loading.

Here is a link that talks about the heating that takes place inside a car’s interior:

How Hot Does Your Car Get? | AC Pro®

Cars left in the summer heat can often feel like stepping inside an oven. But how hot does your car get in the sun? Stay cool and find out why with A/C Pro®.

www.acprocold.com

Screenshot:

Notice that the interior heats up the fastest in the first 30 minutes; avg of 1°F a minute.

Ok, taking their example, it’s 90°F out and you’ve left the gun in the sun for 90 minutes. It’s now 138°F inside the WMLRF.

At 800 yds, according to Strelok, my vertical hold is now .5mil off, and my left-right 8mph wind hold is .2mil off. See attachments for details.

Now I may be totally wrong on how the temp sensors work inside weather-sealed devices. I might have done something else wrong. And this is a more extreme example. But there is no great way to cool off your WMLRF or even binos in this scenario.

Remember, the temp sensor is sealed inside a bino/WMLRF (I assume) whereas the Kestrel is out in the open.

Again, I MIGHT BE TOTALLY WRONG YOU BONEHEADS. Lol

But at least bring some facts to the table?

 

[carbonbased]

Also:

 

[Maurygold]

So, let take this out of the realm of pure opinion (mine included) and at least run some numbers, shall we?

A Kestrel has a temp sensor located outside of a housing, so it can cool down fast once waved or spun.

It is my assumption that weather-sealed devices have their temp sensor buried inside the device, hopefully somewhat sealed away from any electronic heat.

If this is correct, I then assume that the WMLRF, in this case, heats up like a car’s interior. A secondary assumption is there is no fancy software way to minimize what we’re calling solar loading.

Here is a link that talks about the heating that takes place inside a car’s interior:

How Hot Does Your Car Get? | AC Pro®

Cars left in the summer heat can often feel like stepping inside an oven. But how hot does your car get in the sun? Stay cool and find out why with A/C Pro®.

www.acprocold.com

Screenshot:
View attachment 8634810
Notice that the interior heats up the fastest in the first 30 minutes; avg of 1°F a minute.

Ok, taking their example, it’s 90°F out and you’ve left the gun in the sun for 90 minutes. It’s now 138°F inside the WMLRF.

At 800 yds, according to Strelok, my vertical hold is now .5mil off, and my left-right 8mph wind hold is .2mil off. See attachments for details.

Now I may be totally wrong on how the temp sensors work inside weather-sealed devices. I might have done something else wrong. And this is a more extreme example. But there is no great way to cool off your WMLRF or even binos in this scenario.

Remember, the temp sensor is sealed inside a bino/WMLRF (I assume) whereas the Kestrel is out in the open.

Again, I MIGHT BE TOTALLY WRONG YOU BONEHEADS. Lol

But at least bring some facts to the table?

Wtf???

The facts are that the sun heats things. You can lock and/ or manually enter the temperature in an impact and a kestrel to avoid thermal drifting. Just like I told you a week ago.

 

[skyewalker]

Wtf???

The facts are that the sun heats things. You can lock and/ or manually enter the temperature in an impact and a kestrel to avoid thermal drifting. Just like I told you a week ago.

Thank you for making @Mfelici1!!’s point about why they didn’t include onboard sensors…

 

[GenericBadGuy]

So, let take this out of the realm of pure opinion (mine included) and at least run some numbers, shall we?

A Kestrel has a temp sensor located outside of a housing, so it can cool down fast once waved or spun.

It is my assumption that weather-sealed devices have their temp sensor buried inside the device, hopefully somewhat sealed away from any electronic heat.

If this is correct, I then assume that the WMLRF, in this case, heats up like a car’s interior. A secondary assumption is there is no fancy software way to minimize what we’re calling solar loading.

Here is a link that talks about the heating that takes place inside a car’s interior:

How Hot Does Your Car Get? | AC Pro®

Cars left in the summer heat can often feel like stepping inside an oven. But how hot does your car get in the sun? Stay cool and find out why with A/C Pro®.

www.acprocold.com

Screenshot:
View attachment 8634810
Notice that the interior heats up the fastest in the first 30 minutes; avg of 1°F a minute.

Ok, taking their example, it’s 90°F out and you’ve left the gun in the sun for 90 minutes. It’s now 138°F inside the WMLRF.

At 800 yds, according to Strelok, my vertical hold is now .5mil off, and my left-right 8mph wind hold is .2mil off. See attachments for details.

Now I may be totally wrong on how the temp sensors work inside weather-sealed devices. I might have done something else wrong. And this is a more extreme example. But there is no great way to cool off your WMLRF or even binos in this scenario.

Remember, the temp sensor is sealed inside a bino/WMLRF (I assume) whereas the Kestrel is out in the open.

Again, I MIGHT BE TOTALLY WRONG YOU BONEHEADS. Lol

But at least bring some facts to the table?

I am aware of solar loading when there is sun and I agree that the Kestrel can better control for those things with a mostly sealed device by having an exposed temperature sensor that can be normalized by spinning it in ambient air.

The counterpoint more so is that there could be a design that addresses these constraints. I get that aspirational ideas are not well liked. But for example, getting a temperature from a sensor on a kestrel drop or your binos is probably not going to be that far off. Integrate a sensor design into the device for that. Otherwise this is mostly a redundant accessary that could better be replaced by a workflow with laser rangefinding binos Linked tm to a Kestrel 5700.

 

[skyewalker]

I am aware of solar loading when there is sun and I agree that the Kestrel can better control for those things with a mostly sealed device by having an exposed temperature sensor that can be normalized by spinning it in ambient air.

The counterpoint more so is that there could be a design that addresses these constraints. I get that aspirational ideas are not well liked. But for example, getting a temperature from a sensor on a kestrel drop or your binos is probably not going to be that far off. Integrate a sensor design into the device for that. Otherwise this is mostly a redundant accessary that could better be replaced by a workflow with laser rangefinding binos Linked tm to a Kestrel 5700.

Good point. I think I originally said something along the lines of “this certainly isn’t the end all be all device”, because that already exists and is north of 10k and is FDA regulated if you catch my drift.

I view this as an option to grab with a kestrel instead of my RF binos with sensors in them. Different situations will dictate what I bring that day. I like options. Especially cheap options, because this paired with a kestrel is still less money than 10k GenII’s or Vectronix.

 

[carbonbased]

But for example, getting a temperature from a sensor on a kestrel drop or your binos is probably not going to be that far off. Integrate a sensor design into the device for that.

Ok, so explain that a bit further, if you wouldn’t mind. A pair of binos could be affected by solar (or body heat) loading as well.

I’m not talking about aspirational desires; sure, I totally get that. I am talking about this product, in the here and now, versus other current products.

Here are some facts or personal experiences that I’d like to hear about:

Other people that own the Mars unit or the Impact 4000 or LRF binoculars with temp sensors: set them out in strong sunlight and see how the temp is affected in 30 minute increments up to 90 minutes. Give us pics.

Give us documentation from these unit’s instructions about how the device handles solar loading.

Give us specific numbers and examples of how some other factor will minimize solar loading. Emphasis on extremely specific, etc.

@Scott_at_Vortex care to comment as to how solar loading affects the sensors ia your LRF binos and WMLRF? Mitigation?

@SkyScrapin how about you? I believe you have access to a bunch of high-end WMLRF, although you seem to focus on night hunting.

I have no ego in this discussion. I just put forth a theory, and am interested as to how things work. I’m not here to put other people down. (I’m ignoring Maury, btw, b/c he’s unpleasant. No idea what he’s spouting.)

 

[GenericBadGuy]

Ok, so explain that a bit further, if you wouldn’t mind. A pair of binos could be affected by solar (or body heat) loading as well.

I’m not talking about aspirational desires; sure, I totally get that. I am talking about this product, in the here and now, versus other current products.

Here are some facts or personal experiences that I’d like to hear about:

Other people that own the Mars unit or the Impact 4000 or LRF binoculars with temp sensors: set them out in strong sunlight and see how the temp is affected in 30 minute increments up to 90 minutes. Give us pics.

Give us documentation from these unit’s instructions about how the device handles solar loading.

Give us specific numbers and examples of how some other factor will minimize solar loading. Emphasis on extremely specific, etc.

@Scott_at_Vortex care to comment as to how solar loading affects the sensors ia your LRF binos and WMLRF? Mitigation?

@SkyScrapin how about you? I believe you have access to a bunch of high-end WMLRF, although you seem to focus on night hunting.

I have no ego in this discussion. I just put forth a theory, and am interested as to how things work. I’m not here to put other people down. (I’m ignoring Maury, btw, b/c he’s unpleasant. No idea what he’s spouting.)

I am talking about that.

My normal workflow is with a Kestrel, distances from a not linked laser rangefinder binos. I also link my Kestrel to the Quantam app now that the old version is gone. It would be nice not have to juggle all this. Even then most of my shooting is known distance, it's the unknown distance/not competition I am most interested in.

To your point the Raptar S manual talks about verifying temperatures and warns about solar loading 4x.

 

[Maurygold]

Thank you for making @Mfelici1!!’s point about why they didn’t include onboard sensors…

They did that to make it cheaper not more reliable. You can always revert enviro on an impact to a secondary device just like this.

 

[Maurygold]

Ok, so explain that a bit further, if you wouldn’t mind. A pair of binos could be affected by solar (or body heat) loading as well.

I’m not talking about aspirational desires; sure, I totally get that. I am talking about this product, in the here and now, versus other current products.

Here are some facts or personal experiences that I’d like to hear about:

Other people that own the Mars unit or the Impact 4000 or LRF binoculars with temp sensors: set them out in strong sunlight and see how the temp is affected in 30 minute increments up to 90 minutes. Give us pics.

Give us documentation from these unit’s instructions about how the device handles solar loading.

Give us specific numbers and examples of how some other factor will minimize solar loading. Emphasis on extremely specific, etc.

@Scott_at_Vortex care to comment as to how solar loading affects the sensors ia your LRF binos and WMLRF? Mitigation?

@SkyScrapin how about you? I believe you have access to a bunch of high-end WMLRF, although you seem to focus on night hunting.

I have no ego in this discussion. I just put forth a theory, and am interested as to how things work. I’m not here to put other people down. (I’m ignoring Maury, btw, b/c he’s unpleasant. No idea what he’s spouting.)

Your theory that the sun warms things? I already told you three ways to prevent this phenomena entering you’re shooting solution that you think you’ve discovered for the first time in 2025

 

[carbonbased]

To your point the Raptar S manual talks about verifying temperatures and warns about solar loading 4x.

I assume you mean the manual brings up the topic four times, and not that the temp could get 4x hotter inside the unit than ambient temp lol.

Perhaps that’s where part of the pushback against the Fire4000 in this thread is coming from; group A says it’s no big deal that there’s no weather sensors included (considering only current tech), and others think that means group A doesn’t see an advantage to having those sensors in any future scenario.

If that “talking past each other” is indeed the case, I definitely would love weather sensors in a WMLRF or LRF bino. But I’d only pay more for them if manufacturers can figure out a way to make those sensors largely immune to solar loading (and the like).

Because if you start a hunt at 5000ft, cloudy, and 80°F, you could be in a position to shoot at 10,000ft, sunny, and 50°F a few days later. And I’ll have my Kestrel with me anyway for wind.

 

[skyewalker]

Shooting with a buddy that uses Raptar, any comparison requests?

 

[carbonbased]

Shooting with a buddy that uses Raptar, any comparison requests?

Solar load test



< ducking lol >

 

[GenericBadGuy]

I assume you mean the manual brings up the topic four times, and not that the temp could get 4x hotter inside the unit than ambient temp lol.

Perhaps that’s where part of the pushback against the Fire4000 in this thread is coming from; group A says it’s no big deal that there’s no weather sensors included (considering only current tech), and others think that means group A doesn’t see an advantage to having those sensors in any future scenario.

If that “talking past each other” is indeed the case, I definitely would love weather sensors in a WMLRF or LRF bino. But I’d only pay more for them if manufacturers can figure out a way to make those sensors largely immune to solar loading (and the like).

Because if you start a hunt at 5000ft, cloudy, and 80°F, you could be in a position to shoot at 10,000ft, sunny, and 50°F a few days later. And I’ll have my Kestrel with me anyway for wind.

Yes, Wilcox is basically warning the user on four different pages that solar loading can/will give the wrong ambient temperature reading.

I understand your other points.

 

[carbonbased]

Yes, Wilcox is basically warning the user on four different pages that solar loading can/will give the wrong ambient temperature reading.

I understand you though with your other points.

By god man. We just had a civil conversation!

Tally Ho!

 

[GenericBadGuy]

By god man. We just had a civil conversation!

View attachment 8635069

Shh don't tell anyone, this is the hide man we don't want to ruin the vibe .

 

[skyewalker]

Raptar after sitting in the sun for 30min 85F, kestrel 68F, no surprise there. Raptar screen is also impossible to get a picture of. Little size comparison as well.

 

[sbernier123]

So you can program the ABI mode using only a kestrel, no need to use the phone App?

I understand that in ABE the device is using the kestrel/garmin/whatever as an external ballistic solver, and so would be able to use however many profiles are stored on the kestrel by simply selecting a different gun (I think I have that right).

If you're not replacing a single profile in the device each time you switch to a different gun, how many profiles will the device hold in it's internal memory?

Interested in clarity to this as well. I completely get that in ABE mode the rangefinder is just getting a range, sending the info to the Kestrel, then displaying the calculation on the FIRE4000. My question is how do I get the unit to hold that profile (from the kestrel) and external environmental settings (from the Kestrel) after the kestrel is shut off. I would like to only use the Kestrel. Not interested in using my phone/app to push information. Don't mind pushing the info periodically with the Kestrel, but how do I get the unit to hold my Kestrel's profile? Does it have to be connected in ABE all the time? It seems like ABI has to be setup through the Phone App and push a profile to the unit (Enviro, Angle etc...included) from your phone. Can I use my Kestrel to push the same info in ABI, and have the FIRE4000 hold the Kestrel's profile? Then shut the kestrel down, go shooting using the FIRE4000 in ABI, and then reconnect with the Kestrel in a few hours to push new enviros? Any info clearing this up would be great.

 

[skyewalker]

Interested in clarity to this as well. I completely get that in ABE mode the rangefinder is just getting a range, sending the info to the Kestrel, then displaying the calculation on the FIRE4000. My question is how do I get the unit to hold that profile (from the kestrel) and external environmental settings (from the Kestrel) after the kestrel is shut off. I would like to only use the Kestrel. Not interested in using my phone/app to push information. Don't mind pushing the info periodically with the Kestrel, but how do I get the unit to hold my Kestrel's profile? Does it have to be connected in ABE all the time? It seems like ABI has to be setup through the Phone App and push a profile to the unit (Enviro, Angle etc...included) from your phone. Can I use my Kestrel to push the same info in ABI, and have the FIRE4000 hold the Kestrel's profile? Then shut the kestrel down, go shooting using the FIRE4000 in ABI, and then reconnect with the Kestrel in a few hours to push new enviros? Any info clearing this up would be great.

Good question, I’ll check this out later and let you know. If I had to guess based on what I know so far, once you go back to ABI it will revert to the last thing that phone had pushed to the device. There’s no way to communicate Kestrel info to the BOSS app either as far as I know, you’d have to punch any info in manually on the BOSS to match what kestrel gave you. But let me confirm and I’ll edit this response as appropriate.

 

[vanrichten]

Good question, I’ll check this out later and let you know. If I had to guess based on what I know so far, once you go back to ABI it will revert to the last thing that phone had pushed to the device. There’s no way to communicate Kestrel info to the BOSS app either as far as I know, you’d have to punch any info in manually on the BOSS to match what kestrel gave you. But let me confirm and I’ll edit this response as appropriate.

I wonder what will change once the BOSS app is rolled up into Quantum? Since Quantum can communicate with both devices?