Suppressors target crown Suppressor

G

goober

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Jun 13, 2008
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Auckland , New Zealand
#1
I have been talking with a friend about the need for a target crown on a Suppressor, he feels it is vital for accuracy yet the local manufacturer
says once the projectile has left the rifling itsin free space and not affected by the can?? Anyone care to add value to this debate
 
#2
Re: target crown Suppressor

"not affected by the can"

Not 100% true - even though the bullet does not (should never!) touch the can, you can get a point-of-impact change and a slight boost in velocity.

However by the time the bullet leaves the "muzzle" of the can, there are not a lot og gasses to be altered by a "crown" or something else/
 
#3
Re: target crown Suppressor

So is it just the imperfect internal "chamber " of the can that causes a slight imbalance of projectile as it passes the different baffell zones that causes a change of impact or is it the fact that a target crown is not allowing a perfect exit that causes a change of impact --is the target crown making any difference on the can ? ?
 
#6
Re: target crown Suppressor

i have never seen a crowned suppressor exit hole.....but i have seen perfect end caps....made to "zero' run-out.....and some suppressors that are welded do a final pass wire EDM that leaves some very plumb holes .....

if you got a good barrel that exhibits consistency....then thread it and hang a suppressor on it......it will retain and sometimes enhance accuracy.....
 
#7
Re: target crown Suppressor

Boltripper, so in your opinion a crown does not alter the POI after the final exit point of the projectile from the Suppressor ? What is it then that alters a projectile more often than not on a rifle wearing a can -a non consentric bore in the suppressor as the projectile passes through possibly .
 
#8
Re: target crown Suppressor

If I may be so bold as to chime.

The added weight on the barrel affects the POI, It's a fequency thing.

As was posted above ,if the bullet touches the can on the way out , well you got bigger problems.

No can that I'm aware of has an actual "crown" , like Boltripper says "endcap" is a more proper term.
 
#9
Re: target crown Suppressor

Crown on the end cap -muzzel -- does it make a difference to how the bullet exits.Harmonics would certainly change and would account for some movement for sure .LAFFIN -obviously if the projectile touched on the way out the POI would be real shit
 
#10
Re: target crown Suppressor

i have actually had bullet strikes on he endcap of the suppressor......group opened up to only 1 1/2....but the whole gun rung ....it had a low tone , which was the whole barrel/can lash-up vibrating....after all my head was right there w/no earplugs......twas an education
 
#11
Re: target crown Suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Crown on the end cap -muzzel -- does it make a difference to how the bullet exits.</div></div>

Bud!,is that a question?

There seems to be a hang up on what a crown vs. endcap is.
When a crown is mentioned, this implies the last thing of a <span style="text-decoration: underline">barrel</span> that a bullet touches upon exit.

If an suppresor were to be sawed off at a 45 deg. angle and an endcap installed ,perhaps the cushion of gases would force a change in impact.

A perpandicular surface to the bullets axis is all that needs to be acheived as far as I know.

Now I am unpreppared to carry out further discussion until I've had a beer.
laugh.gif


 
#12
Re: target crown Suppressor

Thanks guys for the words --hope youve had that beer wirehand and are sober to answer this!! a crown can be put onto the end cap of the suppressor , this is what my question pertains to .I am just getting a new suppressor due to the first one on the first shot was nicking the end of the can.The second had fifteen stress cracks in the end of it so I am onto the third.I asked the Suppressor maker about putting a crown on the end cap but he commented it didnt do any thing to help accuracy ---this is really the point of the posts
 
#20
Re: target crown Suppressor

Since there is no rifling IN a suppressor there is no CROWN in a suppressor.

There IS an end cap.

The point of a target crown is so that the gasses exit the muzzle around the projectile in a consistent manner about the circumference. This allows the bullet to exit the muzzle as undisturbed as possible.

Once the bullet has exited the barrel and entered the suppressor the goal of the suppressor is to trap/slow/cool the gas escaping the muzzle. Most rifle cans do this with baffles of various designs. Come are concentric some are not. Some are very oddly shaped and many are patented "secret squirrel" designs.

I would wager that after the bullet has passed through the chaos that is the internal design of a suppressor that the transition from the bore to endcap is going to have little effect on the flight path as long as it does not result in physical contact with the cap.



 
#22
Re: target crown Suppressor

The reason that I am interested in the outcome of this thread is for the following

I have a .308 barrel that is threaded 5/8x32 for a muzzle brake.
I have a suppressor on order that is 5/8x24
I designed an adapter of which I put a 12 degree input crown on where the bullet will enter the adapter bore as well as a 12 degree crown on the exit of the adapter bore into the bore of the suppressor. Also the bore diameter of the adapter is .343 (standard reamer size from what Im told) Im just wondering if there will be any issues caused from the adapter since the adapter is basically an extension of the barrel with a slightly bigger bore.
 
#23
Re: target crown Suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason that I am interested in the outcome of this thread is for the following

I have a .308 barrel that is threaded 5/8x32 for a muzzle brake.
I have a suppressor on order that is 5/8x24
I designed an adapter of which I put a 12 degree input <span style="color: #FF0000">chamfer</span> on where the bullet will enter the adapter bore as well as a 12 degree <span style="color: #FF0000">chamfer</span> on the exit of the adapter bore into the bore of the suppressor. Also the bore diameter of the adapter is .343 (standard reamer size from what Im told) Im just wondering if there will be any issues caused from the adapter since the adapter is basically an extension of the barrel with a slightly bigger bore. </div></div>


Corrected terminology in red.
The adapter should not affect shit if it is at a tolerable run-out, threaded correctly and the shoulder is square
 
#24
Re: target crown Suppressor

Thanks for the useful pic flounderv2 as it illustrates the type of end cap I am speaking about -possibly my post have been confusing to some -sorry if they have been .I think you are wondering about the same affects I am Flounderv2 ! I got a bit lost there with a couple of post there appearing as though some disrespect had been shown to them?? I appreciate the opinions from those experianced with these technical issues
 
#25
Re: target crown Suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wirehand</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason that I am interested in the outcome of this thread is for the following

I have a .308 barrel that is threaded 5/8x32 for a muzzle brake.
I have a suppressor on order that is 5/8x24
I designed an adapter of which I put a 12 degree input <span style="color: #FF0000">chamfer</span> on where the bullet will enter the adapter bore as well as a 12 degree <span style="color: #FF0000">chamfer</span> on the exit of the adapter bore into the bore of the suppressor. Also the bore diameter of the adapter is .343 (standard reamer size from what Im told) Im just wondering if there will be any issues caused from the adapter since the adapter is basically an extension of the barrel with a slightly bigger bore. </div></div>


Corrected terminology in red.
The adapter should not affect shit if it is at a tolerable run-out, threaded correctly and the shoulder is square </div></div>

Yes I understand that it is called a chamfer but used the term crown for consistency when discussing firearms related topics. Please feel free to go and correct every other person on this board when they mention they have a target crown on a barrel.

I would say that everyone on here will know what is meant when the term "crown" is used. Unless you have actually worked with metal or CAD programs, using the term chamfer will only add more confusion for some.
 
#26
Re: target crown Suppressor

When a crown is mentioned in the context of a barrel then they would be correct.
When a crown is mentioned in regards to an adapter or endcap, that is wrong.

Just because someone is not a machinist doesn't mean the correct terminology can't be used.
That's like saying , well I'm not a doctor so the things I walk on are hands.

So far it just seems there are a couple on this post that don't understand , and most that do.



 
#27
Re: target crown Suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wirehand</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason that I am interested in the outcome of this thread is for the following

I have a .308 barrel that is threaded 5/8x32 for a muzzle brake.
I have a suppressor on order that is 5/8x24
I designed an adapter of which I put a 12 degree input <span style="color: #FF0000">chamfer</span> on where the bullet will enter the adapter bore as well as a 12 degree <span style="color: #FF0000">chamfer</span> on the exit of the adapter bore into the bore of the suppressor. Also the bore diameter of the adapter is .343 (standard reamer size from what Im told) Im just wondering if there will be any issues caused from the adapter since the adapter is basically an extension of the barrel with a slightly bigger bore. </div></div>


Corrected terminology in red.
The adapter should not affect shit if it is at a tolerable run-out, threaded correctly and the shoulder is square </div></div>

Yes I understand that it is called a chamfer but used the term crown for consistency when discussing firearms related topics. Please feel free to go and correct every other person on this board when they mention they have a target crown on a barrel.

I would say that everyone on here will know what is meant when the term "crown" is used. Unless you have actually worked with metal or CAD programs, using the term chamfer will only add more confusion for some. </div></div>

No, the confusion comes from people using the term "crown" to mean some sort of profile on a metal cylinder instead of realizing that the "crown" is the point at which the barrel ceases to be in contact with the bullet. A "crown" may be chamfered or recessed or may just be a perfectly flat 90* cut at the end of the barrel (which is how my SRS is.) As long as it is consistent it doesn't seem to matter (both my limited experience and what people like Gardner have said here.)

The chamfer or recess (or both) you frequently see helps to protect the crown so that it doesn't get damaged and gunked up and thus lose it's consistency. The chamfer itself does nothing to improve the consistency. With a suppressed or braked (sp?) rifle the suppressor or brake will protect the crown and so a simple 90* cut is all that's needed.

If you want to put some sort of profile such as a chamfer or recess on your suppressor's ENDCAP then feel free, but the consensus here seems to be that you're just wasting your time.

 
#28
Re: target crown Suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I got a bit lost there with a couple of post there appearing as though some disrespect had been shown to them?? I appreciate the opinions from those experianced with these technical issues</div></div>

Speaking for others here, but I imagine the frustrations arose when it became apparent that you weren't reading for comprehension. When the answer to your question lies in the nuances of your misunderstanding, it is not uncommon for people to read the answer without recognizing it as the answer.

Boltripper tried to be nice and give you a subtle hint that you were asking a non-question. Let you save a little face and back away. Maybe next time.

 
#29
Re: target crown Suppressor

Ratbert, flounderv2 made perfect sense to me and I think you final comment was out of order as , just because a senior member adds his valued opinion to the comments , conversation or free flowing thoughs shouldnt stop there !No offence intended just a point
"Boltripper tried to be nice and give you a subtle hint that you were asking a non-question. Let you save a little face and back away. Maybe next time. -,

just because I failed to call it a chamfer I think it was still quite clear what I was asking and it does appear from the very few good members that posted they dont feel a chamfer makes an POI difference -its interesting as I have a couple of friends that insist the oppersite on their units .Always good to hear opinion from the hide members -thanks to all
 
#30
Re: target crown Suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ratbert, flounderv2 made perfect sense to me and I think you final comment was out of order as , just because a senior member adds his valued opinion to the comments , conversation or free flowing thoughs shouldnt stop there !No offence intended just a point
"Boltripper tried to be nice and give you a subtle hint that you were asking a non-question. Let you save a little face and back away. Maybe next time. -,

just because I failed to call it a chamfer I think it was still quite clear what I was asking and it does appear from the very few good members that posted they dont feel a chamfer makes an POI difference -its interesting as I have a couple of friends that insist the oppersite on their units .Always good to hear opinion from the hide members -thanks to all</div></div>

Ah, but see if you realize that the 'crown' everyone is talking about as being so important is the end of where the bullet touches the barrel then it is easy to see that it really doesn't apply to a suppressor or muzzle brake. However if you read/hear/learn for years from countless sources that the 'crown' is vitally important and you think 'crown' means 'chamfer' then you can clearly become easily confused when thinking about the chamfer on other devices the bullet may pass through. Words mean things. It's not about us not understanding what you were asking, Boltripper was trying to explain that YOU didn't understand what you were asking and that it was apparent through your incorrect syntax. And now I have tried. Both times you replied with "forget about what I said, I just want an answer to my question." So really, I doubt if this post will do any good at all either.

New Zealand is high on my list of places to visit as soon as the boys are old enough to dump on grandparents... when I do, feel free to hunt me down and kick me in the balls for having the audacity to try and help.

I'm Out.



 
#31
Re: target crown Suppressor

Nah bro I wouldnt do that , you,d always be welcomed in the NZ paradise ! Obviously I was not understanding what was being said and wasnt the only one -hey thats cool though as your post have cleared my fuzzy view -if ya do come down here send an email and catch up!!
 
#32
Re: target crown Suppressor

I probably went around this thread incorrectly and should have read further on the subject of muzzle crowns on barrels first . it is clearly the opinion of most that there is no supporting evidence other than here say that angles cut on the crown is for anything other than protection of the muzzle end !If this is so clearly a crown on a suppressor would be ineffective also . It is interesting what one finds out when one delves a little deeper.Thank you all for your posts and patience
 
#33
Re: target crown Suppressor

A local smith that's become sort of a buddy of mine said that back when he was in vocational school they tried cutting the crowns at greater and greater angles (like instead of a 90* cut, cut it off axis to a 85, 80, 75, etc) and discovered that really you had to get the damn thing to almost 60* (so that one side of the barrel was considerably longer than the other) before your POI started wandering around. As long as the cut was clean and consistent the gun would remain reasonably accurate.
 
#35
Re: target crown Suppressor

Hi if you have had 2 cans cracking the end caps i would have the thread on your barrel checked to make sure it is true to the bore. the crown can be square counterbored or have a 60 to 11 degree angle all will work and be accurate it is critical that the total area of the crown be sharp and on the same angle the entire surface. That recessed end cap will do nothing to effect accuracy. If your can is made well and is true to the centre of your bore the angle will do nothing to the accuracy.

We use barrel tuners on target rifles all the time they are a weight on the end of the barrel that can be accuratly moved up and down the barrel this alters the harmonics and at 300 yards moving the tuner can make a rifle shoot 1/2" groups up to 3" groups with just the change in the weight makes the barrel harmonics chance this is what happens to a barrel when a can is attached. Usualy the group stays close to the same sometimes they will actualy tighten as the can dedens the harmonics and helps with accuracy and on realy long thin barrels groups can actualy open up. When tuning a barrel moving the weight 20 thou down the barrel can move the point of impact over 3" in any direction so this is why you get POI changes.

But if you are on your third can get the thread checked sompthing is wrong either the end cap hole is to small or the material to thin or the thread on the barrel is off centre and you are hitting the can with the projectiles.

 
#36
Re: target crown Suppressor

Hey Wild Bill, my first can was threaded poorly and the projectile hit the end -2nd showed front end warping plus it had at least 15 micro crack seen by a aircraft engineer pal of mine -3rd to come free but will be sold and either a custom one made by another manufacturer or ill spend 650nz and get a AUJET.Concentricity is of major concern when putting something on the end for sure !My friend had a new end cap made for his AUJET as he thought it lacked enough thread , he also made an adaptor so the suppressor wouldnt undo- the other problem with the suppressor I have been using .This particular suppressor performs well in the sound department but lacks in others including thin end cap which can warp and it undoes fairly quickly on the rifle when shot several times .
 
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