Target Sizes for matches

[waytodude]

I've ran several matches at my place and am running into situation where advanced shooters love my COF and target sizes but less advanced shooters complain. I'll be running MOST/PRS club series next year and will have to please the expert and novice. So what size targets should I run for prone and positional.

 

[MakeSawdust]

The standard seems to be 1.5-2 moa in prone and 2-3 moa in positional stuff. Adding a tyl or kyl stage, a positional stage with a lot of movement, a stage that has a big and a small Target at each distance, or ONE stage where the targets trend toward one moa from prone will help separate the field. You can also do things like a one moa hit to move on target but keep that target in the 300-500 yard range where the wind call is not so crucial. Then set normal size targets to shoot for the rest of the stage.

If you are questioning your COF it would help you to go shoot a bunch of other people's matches. It will give you an idea of what the standard target size is and how match directors give the better shooters opportunity to separate themselves from the field.

 

[Birddog6424]

Bear in mind it's difficult to please everyone. The above suggestions are excellent.

What can help you going forward is paying attention to the scores. Shoot for something around an 80% hit ratio for your winners, 50 to 55% on average. Make sure that you mingle in a couple stages where the bulk of the field has an opportunity to score well, and be cognizant of mixing in a couple tough ones. Pay attention to what the average hit ratio is on those stages and you'll get better at them.

In case you're wondering why I suggest mixing in a couple meatball stages, you will find that shooters will feel better about the COF with stages they score well on. Those two stages with 7-10 scores will offset their average of 4-6 even if they take a 1-3 on your tough stages. The mental effect of doing great on a stage or two really tends to leave a better impression than just shooting average all day.

Club matches are about expanding and growing your base. So lean more towards the average and beginner in your COF versus your more experienced shooters.

 

[waytodude]

In one of Franks podcast I believe he talked about the 1.5 to 2 moa prone and 2 to 3 moa on positional, however having been to several matches targets sizes are getting smaller. I will begin with these target sizes you and a few others have suggested and monitor the hit ratio and adjust from there. Thanks for your help gentleman.

 

[DP425]

I typically follow the 1-2moa prone, 2-3.5 positional.

However, I also try to design stages where those top guys are going to have targets they would have to intentionally miss; those targets aren't there for the top shooters, they are there for the low placing shooters. So this rule isn't a true "rule", it's just a guide to stick with.

Stages with large and small targets are good for this- 5 positions, two targets, one shot on each from each position. Large target is super easy- small target is rather difficult. Ensures my lower shooters won't zero out the stage. Or 10 targets at 5 ranges, large and small.

I will also run a troop line either where the near targets are like 4-5moa, and it drops down to 1 or 1.5 by the time it gets to 1k. Or I'll flip it around where the nearer targets are 1moa, maybe even ¾ moa if close enough, but the 1k target is 4moa.

Another good one is a fairly large target, with one shot from 8-12 positions. Main goal is simply to challenge my top shooters on time; I want to see about 80% of my shooters time out on the stage, with only 5-10% cleaning the stage. Those lower skilled shooters will get 30-50% of the available points. You can use this same principle by making a target rich stage where most shooters will time out before getting to the last target. Any combination of this.

You might have to just feel it out a bit. End of the day though, you have to put a lot of focus into your lower and middle range shooters; those are the ones paying the bills. It would be better that you have a match or two where it's a little too easy, than too hard. It's a lot easier to say "we'll be making the matches harder as the year goes on", than to say "uh, I kinda screwed up and made this way too hard. Sorry you 10-20 dudes shot less than 30%".

Final word of advice, not really related to target size; if you have a few really inventive stage ideas, something rather unique that you haven't seen anyone else run... First, run the idea by one or two reliable people you can use as a sounding board... Then, only put one of those stages in a match, and sandwich it between a couple solid, well liked stages. Most shooters SHOULD understand that on the club level, you might occasionally design a stage that just doesn't work out that well. They aren't going to mind too much, as long as it doesn't happen often, and everything else in the match is solid. You have to keep your matches fresh, and proofing your own stages sometimes doesn't give you an accurate feel for how your shooters will do. It happens; just be careful it doesn't happen often, and especially within the same match!

 

[DIBBS]

Very well stated @DP425 . In much simpler terms, you have to have a decent mix of easy and difficult targets, such that all your participants will want to return to improve their scores. Too hard, they feel shitty and wont come back, too easy, complaints that the COF didn't challenge them or help to build their skills. Sadly you will never have a COF that pleases everyone because of the great difference in skill levels.

One thing that was done at a match last year was a side match at the end, head to head 3 shot groups for smallest group on an electronic target system @ 500ish yards as I recall. This generated a LOT of interest and heckling and such. Short timeframe for 3 shot group from a standing position (15 seconds?), as well as the spectators seeing each shooters shots pop up on the big screen hooked up to the target sensors wireless. Lots of oohs and awss and O shit he/she screwed the pooch with the last shot....

 

[Forward543]

Check your results at the end. If the top guy is 80-85percent, you should be good. If the top gets over 90, it was too easy, if they get mid 70s the bottom guys will hit zero targets.

 

[Ironmaker]

Here is data from three 1 day matches I shot this year. Everyone seemed to be happy with the courses of fire. The participants ranged from PRS champions to first time shooters.

 

[salks]

Having 2 targets a big and a small on some stages. Where you have to hit the big to engage the small. Gives new shooters 2 chances at the big. Helps my score I know.

 

[Cjwise5]

I didn't read every post above, but what I would like to see is 3 targets at each distance/stage. Doesn't matter prone vs. positional. Smallest target is given 3 points, medium is worth 2pts, and largest target is worth 1 point. Each shooter can decide what they are capable of hitting. Still provides a challenge for the pros. Still allows new people to hit a lot of steel in theory and have fun. I'm sure someone somewhere has already suggested this.

*edit - in my opinion, the largest target should be 3+ moa, especially if it's beyond 800y. Smallest, in my opinion, should never be less than 1moa at any distance for a prone shot. If positional, then the smallest should 1.5-2moa.

 

[Topstrap]

I too try to have my racks set up to let most shooters hit 80%, better shooters might miss maybe 8 to 10 and the winners battle it out with a few smaller targets that are gamble targets at certain stages.

A quick video I made showing the racks for one of my matches this summer. I also made a set of 4 moa targets for metallic (peep) sight. If a rack has 5 targets for the scoped guys they have to hit theirs 5 times. Might sound big but they are a pinprick thru the aperature and with it greying out and having a harder time with dealing with wind I think it puts scoped and metallic competition on a pretty level playing field.

I also throw in something special for a final stage that is unexpected such as splitting a bullet on an axe at 50 yards or shooting off a rope strung above the benches.



Topstrap

 

[waytodude]

The standard seems to be 1.5-2 moa in prone and 2-3 moa in positional stuff. Adding a tyl or kyl stage, a positional stage with a lot of movement, a stage that has a big and a small Target at each distance, or ONE stage where the targets trend toward one moa from prone will help separate the field. You can also do things like a one moa hit to move on target but keep that target in the 300-500 yard range where the wind call is not so crucial. Then set normal size targets to shoot for the rest of the stage.

If you are questioning your COF it would help you to go shoot a bunch of other people's matches. It will give you an idea of what the standard target size is and how match directors give the better shooters opportunity to separate themselves from the field.

Thanks for your help

 

[waytodude]

Bear in mind it's difficult to please everyone. The above suggestions are excellent.

What can help you going forward is paying attention to the scores. Shoot for something around an 80% hit ratio for your winners, 50 to 55% on average. Make sure that you mingle in a couple stages where the bulk of the field has an opportunity to score well, and be cognizant of mixing in a couple tough ones. Pay attention to what the average hit ratio is on those stages and you'll get better at them.

In case you're wondering why I suggest mixing in a couple meatball stages, you will find that shooters will feel better about the COF with stages they score well on. Those two stages with 7-10 scores will offset their average of 4-6 even if they take a 1-3 on your tough stages. The mental effect of doing great on a stage or two really tends to leave a better impression than just shooting average all day.

Club matches are about expanding and growing your base. So lean more towards the average and beginner in your COF versus your more experienced shooters.

Thanks for your help. Took in everyone's here and came up with a COF that was very good where top shooter were 80% and last place was around 55%.

 

[waytodude]

In one of Franks podcast I believe he talked about the 1.5 to 2 moa prone and 2 to 3 moa on positional, however having been to several matches targets sizes are getting smaller. I will begin with these target sizes you and a few others have suggested and monitor the hit ratio and adjust from there. Thanks for your help gentleman.

Thanks found that podcast and it helped.

 

[waytodude]

I typically follow the 1-2moa prone, 2-3.5 positional.

However, I also try to design stages where those top guys are going to have targets they would have to intentionally miss; those targets aren't there for the top shooters, they are there for the low placing shooters. So this rule isn't a true "rule", it's just a guide to stick with.

Stages with large and small targets are good for this- 5 positions, two targets, one shot on each from each position. Large target is super easy- small target is rather difficult. Ensures my lower shooters won't zero out the stage. Or 10 targets at 5 ranges, large and small.

I will also run a troop line either where the near targets are like 4-5moa, and it drops down to 1 or 1.5 by the time it gets to 1k. Or I'll flip it around where the nearer targets are 1moa, maybe even ¾ moa if close enough, but the 1k target is 4moa.

Another good one is a fairly large target, with one shot from 8-12 positions. Main goal is simply to challenge my top shooters on time; I want to see about 80% of my shooters time out on the stage, with only 5-10% cleaning the stage. Those lower skilled shooters will get 30-50% of the available points. You can use this same principle by making a target rich stage where most shooters will time out before getting to the last target. Any combination of this.

You might have to just feel it out a bit. End of the day though, you have to put a lot of focus into your lower and middle range shooters; those are the ones paying the bills. It would be better that you have a match or two where it's a little too easy, than too hard. It's a lot easier to say "we'll be making the matches harder as the year goes on", than to say "uh, I kinda screwed up and made this way too hard. Sorry you 10-20 dudes shot less than 30%".

Final word of advice, not really related to target size; if you have a few really inventive stage ideas, something rather unique that you haven't seen anyone else run... First, run the idea by one or two reliable people you can use as a sounding board... Then, only put one of those stages in a match, and sandwich it between a couple solid, well liked stages. Most shooters SHOULD understand that on the club level, you might occasionally design a stage that just doesn't work out that well. They aren't going to mind too much, as long as it doesn't happen often, and everything else in the match is solid. You have to keep your matches fresh, and proofing your own stages sometimes doesn't give you an accurate feel for how your shooters will do. It happens; just be careful it doesn't happen often, and especially within the same match!

Thanks for your help. Took advice from everyone here and my match was a success even with all that's happening in our world. Your advice was very sound thanks!

 

[waytodude]

Sorry it's taken so long to respond but things been crazy since my post. Was able to get a match in on Memorial weekend and everyone seemed to enjoy our range and COF. Thanks for everyone's advice!

 

[1moaoff]

I didn't read every post above, but what I would like to see is 3 targets at each distance/stage. Doesn't matter prone vs. positional. Smallest target is given 3 points, medium is worth 2pts, and largest target is worth 1 point. Each shooter can decide what they are capable of hitting. Still provides a challenge for the pros. Still allows new people to hit a lot of steel in theory and have fun. I'm sure someone somewhere has already suggested this.

*edit - in my opinion, the largest target should be 3+ moa, especially if it's beyond 800y. Smallest, in my opinion, should never be less than 1moa at any distance for a prone shot. If positional, then the smallest should 1.5-2moa.

I like that idea.
But I like KYL as know your limit and take your score or risk a 0..
To me that let's everyone shoot the course the same but grades out alot of factors.
I could see a few other advantages also.
They would just need to declare intended target size set

 

[1moaoff]

@Cjwise5
Have you been seeing any one do that yet?

 

[Cjwise5]

@1moaoff - no, not yet.