Targets- episode 222

[Bryan marks]

I've been having trouble finding a good target to zero with. I have the new Arken 4-16 scope. it has a fine reticle with a very small center dot. any target I use that's dark the dot gets lost. I made some targets with 1/4 inch open white center circles so I can see the center dot. reticles are black and the scopes that don't have illumination get lost. its not that big of a deal for zeroing but shooting refrigerator groups I would like a perfect hold. like Frank said in the podcast seeing your bullet holes can induce some fidgeting when you see 3 holes touching. I usually dial up one mill or so after I have a solid zero so my bullet holes don't obstruct my target. I have also put 1/4 inch white sticker dots like the ones you buy for garage sales to write the price on on top of a shoot an see 2 inch circle or the birtchwood casy ones. I have only shot circles but after listing to the podcast I will experiment with squares and diamonds. I would like a target with a white center and refined aiming point. what are some of the target you guys use I would like to see what pops up. Thanks

 

[memilanuk]

Weirdly enough, I generally *don't* shoot my best score/groups aiming center/center, whether it's load-development, steel or F-class.

I prefer to hold on a corner, or at least an edge or line.

The corners of the outer diamonds on the Redfield/Champion 100yd sight-in targets work pretty good for me. After that, any available line or edge.

The thing that really messes with me is trying to shoot at those dang Shoot-N-C targets, black with the orange dot in the middle. I've got a bit of astigmatism, and even with prescription lenses I get this weird effect where the orange dot, which I *know* is round and in the center, appears oblong leaning toward 10:30. Very disconcerting. Holding edge of black works much better for me on those.

 

[Jack Master]

Here is a target I made after listening to the podcast. This target will do several things if Frank used it in a class.
There are 9 Aiming points on this one paper.

• Write the name of each student at the top so they don't shoot the wrong target.
  • This also helps the instructor learn the students name.
• Order the columns and rows so this could be used for reference if needed as well.
• The center dot in the triangle can be used for gross zeroing if needed. This is a 3/4" dot with a 1/4" open center.
  • The large diamond around this target will help new shooters with aligning the vertical and horizontal reticle lines.
• The 3 larger dots around the perimeter could be used for refined zeros.
  • These do not have the diamond and will force the student to start using the center dot.
• The smaller 1/2" dot could be used to refine further.
• Each point of the diamond could be used as a super fine aiming point.

Remarks

• The 1/2" grid could be removed from the target is wanted.
• The outer 4 targets could be moved a specific distance from the center to allow dialing a given value (and still aim at the center.
• 15 students would be 4x4 target array - this is 36" wide x 44" tall. A doable target board size.

8.5x11 printable paper.



Give some Idea to this. I can make changes as we decide whats best for Frank with 10 people on a line. @lowlight

 

[Jack Master]

My other thought for Gross zeroing is to have a 100 yard steel target that has 2" donuts. Each doput could swing so you know which one is hit. Do you think it would be posible to see the impacts at 100 yards with the target motion to know where the impacts where at?

 

[Bryan marks]

Weirdly enough, I generally *don't* shoot my best score/groups aiming center/center, whether it's load-development, steel or F-class.

I prefer to hold on a corner, or at least an edge or line.

The corners of the outer diamonds on the Redfield/Champion 100yd sight-in targets work pretty good for me. After that, any available line or edge.

The thing that really messes with me is trying to shoot at those dang Shoot-N-C targets, black with the orange dot in the middle. I've got a bit of astigmatism, and even with prescription lenses I get this weird effect where the orange dot, which I *know* is round and in the center, appears oblong leaning toward 10:30. Very disconcerting. Holding edge of black works much better for me on those.

I also have a astigmatism and now that you say it that’s probably why I have such a hard time. Thanks for the Insight.

 

[Lowlight]

I have done several different "target stickers" for me to use in classes

The sticker solution is my preferred method, vs paper, stapling, etc. I do carry some larger paper targets, but they can be a pain in the butt

We had several variations made over time,

Originally, talking about destroying aiming points, I have rolls of these targets

this didnt' work because of the black dot, the paper was shinier than I wanted I needed a better matte finish, but it was designed for the very reason mentioned above, aim black, impact above

then for the Fundy Eval I moved to these

Part of the issue was, during the Eval people always shot the wrong target. You tell them to shoot Target 10 and they either shoot above or below the number, they always shot the wrong line. So in the grey, I put their number on it.

Here you can see what a typical board looks like

We had these made up, but the design was wrong and didn't work right, but also look at the board it's packed

Those look like this

Same thought, you can move the impact up to not destroy the aiming point

Stickers are the easiest to use, and mostly I use Shooting Cs

And we went to a bigger board.

The space is easier to work with

Lastly I am working on this which would be a 3.5" Sticker to paste over the top once a zero is established

Making this a 3.5" sticker means its easy to transport, it's cheap buying in bulk and sticker giant does me right

The issue was, creating the right design the first time vs these false starts

 

[Jack Master]

I have done several different "target stickers" for me to use in classes

The sticker solution is my preferred method, vs paper, stapling, etc. I do carry some larger paper targets, but they can be a pain in the butt

We had several variations made over time,

Originally, talking about destroying aiming points, I have rolls of these targets

View attachment 7219641

this didnt' work because of the black dot, the paper was shinier than I wanted I needed a better matte finish, but it was designed for the very reason mentioned above, aim black, impact above

then for the Fundy Eval I moved to these

View attachment 7219644

Part of the issue was, during the Eval people always shot the wrong target. You tell them to shoot Target 10 and they either shoot above or below the number, they always shot the wrong line. So in the grey, I put their number on it.

View attachment 7219656
Here you can see what a typical board looks like

We had these made up, but the design was wrong and didn't work right, but also look at the board it's packed
View attachment 7219658
Those look like this
View attachment 7219659 Same thought, you can move the impact up to not destroy the aiming point

Stickers are the easiest to use, and mostly I use Shooting Cs
View attachment 7219663
And we went to a bigger board.

The space is easier to work with

Lastly I am working on this which would be a 3.5" Sticker to paste over the top once a zero is established
View attachment 7219667

Making this a 3.5" sticker means its easy to transport, it's cheap buying in bulk and sticker giant does me right

The issue was, creating the right design the first time vs these false starts

I see you used squares rather than diamonds. Was there a reason why? (did I miss this in the podcast?)

 

[gsd1983]

I use a similar target to what Jack posted. I grabbed it from an online target archive, but I like Jacks a bit better so I went ahead and yoinked that one to switch to.?

 

[Lowlight]

I didn't like the angle of the diamond originally

I can change it, this is not a finished product, but just the feedback of the "orange" was an improvement

So incrementally I have been playing with it, I did all 3 earlier, I had two squares, a diamond and circle, which might be something to look at, but who knows

I still have to print copies and shoot it

 

[Lowlight]

Ideally,

The goal would be to find a design and have targets printed, I do also use these because they are numbered, but i put a 3" C over the top of the black

The endgame would be to have a single sheet like this to use, the problem is, all these numbered targets have solid 3 inch black circles.

It's about the individuals that don't do so well vs the guys who can shoot 1/2 MOA most of the time. You always have to figure at least 3 guys are gonna be out of their element and screw things up.

 

[Rangerbob33]

I didn't like the angle of the diamond originally

I can change it, this is not a finished product, but just the feedback of the "orange" was an improvement

So incrementally I have been playing with it, I did all 3 earlier, I had two squares, a diamond and circle, which might be something to look at, but who knows

I still have to print copies and shoot it

I would like to see this with diamonds, also after thinking about what you said about certain colors "looking" better through optics would blue or green be a better choice for colors?

 

[_Windrider_]

I use the MIL Zero Target from Impact Data Books under the free downloads. It corresponds with the same databook page. works great for me as a solo shooter.

However, for your needs @lowlight , i see this databook page and corresponding target being valuable. Only catch is I have yet to find the target that goes with it, its not on Impacts, target downloads.

Get box to bench to print you some of these up for class.

 

[mpwolf]

I really like these targets for fine aiming work. The owner of Red Star is a shooter, and all around good guy. He may well be up for producing a mil based target.

108 - TRIPLE THREE TARGET 250-pack in 25x10 packages — Red Star Target Company

This 17" x 22" target, with nine individual shooting points on a 1" grid is strategically designed especially for the Handloader. It is ideal for testing different combinations of bullets and powders, without continually having to change the target. This target challenges those strivi

www.redstartarget.com

 

[Jack Master]

Ideally,

The goal would be to find a design and have targets printed, I do also use these because they are numbered, but i put a 3" C over the top of the black

The endgame would be to have a single sheet like this to use, the problem is, all these numbered targets have solid 3 inch black circles.

It's about the individuals that don't do so well vs the guys who can shoot 1/2 MOA most of the time. You always have to figure at least 3 guys are gonna be out of their element and screw things up.

Frank
I can make that up for you. 24x36 page. The circles are 3" outer, with 1/4" dot. You can post a Shoot-N-C over them if you needed but this way you'll have the numbered targets.



Also Attached is a 2nd target that I thought might work. This will take 2 boards to get 12 shooters but these targets let the noobs use the larger targets for zero then small dots for refinement. Aim small miss small a the end. Just my 2 cents.



Rather than shoot-n-C could you have stickers made that look like these targets? Would that be cheaper than shoot-n-c?

I Truly think to get people to shoot the correct target is putting thier damn name buy it. Add a the first letter of the last name if you have 2 people of the first name.

 

[Jack Master]

Have you ever tried these?? 3" circle with 1" black dot

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B012HUHKK8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_image_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[Jack Master]

Couldn't do it - had to change from the 3/4" dot to this

1/4" center dot. 1" bolt ring, 2 light, 3 bold.

I edited the targets from above as well.

 

[Gee Kay]

^ thats the sort of target i like to shoot at. plain dots just dont work for me as there is nowhere to line up the reticle.
need some sort of aiming point to line up the cross-hairs. repeatability is the key

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Lehigh Defenee makes some nice cards. Or draw your own. Red makes things easier to see.

 

[Bryan marks]

What about just a simple thin black cross. No dots no diamond. You would have to make sure the target is level then you could just line up your cross hairs on all 4 lines if you know what I mean. Or a black back ground with a while thin cross.

 

[Mike4837]

Ideally,

The goal would be to find a design and have targets printed, I do also use these because they are numbered, but i put a 3" C over the top of the black

The endgame would be to have a single sheet like this to use, the problem is, all these numbered targets have solid 3 inch black circles.

It's about the individuals that don't do so well vs the guys who can shoot 1/2 MOA most of the time. You always have to figure at least 3 guys are gonna be out of their element and screw things up.

What if you could design a target that was a sheet of paper like above, but the aiming points themselves were replaceable with the sticker targets? I might be missing the concept, but would that solve the issue? You could have multiple targets printed for the guys who aren't having trouble, but stick more targets over the paper for the guys who need more work. Basically combing the sticker concept above with this paper solution.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

.

Burris also makes some

 

[Mike4837]

@lowlight also, I like the idea of diamond, circles, and squares if you're going to print your own. I find the different shapes require a different focus and teach me different things about quartering or shooting a point etc.

 

[Lowlight]

Shot the orange today it was perfect

Guys, you have to remember, this is not meant to be a one-off for one person, I need a group target for a group of people who are gonna shoot a series of groups

The point, is ease and efficiency on top of having the best target and experience to shoot at

It's about not having to give 16 people, 16 different instructions, and it's about downtime, you want to just run down, and slap a target up or cover the holes with a sticker

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

You can get a variety of shapes and sizes of flourescent stickers on Amazon. Or the 3" shoot n see are nice.

Get a roll of tar paper from your local home supply and cut as needed for a black background. Divide it into squares with white chalk.

Add stickers till your heart's content.

Rinse & repeat.

 

[Lowlight]

Ya,

Cause I want to travel, then find tar paper and lug that around

Honestly, you guys are not very good at this, I have it handled, but thanks for listening

 

[Tikka595II]

I use the MIL Zero Target from Impact Data Books under the free downloads. It corresponds with the same databook page. works great for me as a solo shooter.

However, for your needs @lowlight , i see this databook page and corresponding target being valuable. Only catch is I have yet to find the target that goes with it, its not on Impacts, target downloads.

View attachment 7220215

Get box to bench to print you some of these up for class.

This is a target from champion targets very nice multiple fine aiming points http://www.championtarget.com/targets/paper/precision/redfield.aspx

 

[demonjigger]

It may not be for everyone, but I prefer the storm tactical free printable target on page 85 off the milrad and yard target link on their website.

I like diamond targets because I can aim at the point of a diamond to get a fine aiming point for load development and groups. It has multiple small diamonds so I can test multiple loads on one target.

And if I'm shooting longer distance I can quarter the larger center diamond.

I couldn't figure out how to upload a picture of it using just my phone or I would have.

http://www.stormtactical.com/stu/MIL_YARDS.pdf

 

[jab00]

Not to derail the target design discussion but I’ve got a question about the comment in the podcast about setting zero one click left...

...I’m right-handed but left-eye dominate, so I shoot lefty on a right-handed action, should I then be setting my zero 1-click right of center to get the same advantage of helping to counter a slight pull of the rifle?

ETA: I prefer using 1” diamond shaped targets at 100 yard for the initial zero. I’ve got a decent astigmatism and the diamond doesn’t seem to play the same game on my eyes that circles and squares do.

 

[Jack Master]

Not to derail the target design discussion but I’ve got a question about the comment in the podcast about setting zero one click left...

...I’m right-handed but left-eye dominate, so I shoot lefty on a right-handed action, should I then be setting my zero 1-click right of center to get the same advantage of helping to counter a slight pull of the rifle?

ETA: I prefer using 1” diamond shaped targets at 100 yard for the initial zero. I’ve got a decent astigmatism and the diamond doesn’t seem to play the same game on my eyes that circles and squares do.

Zeroing just left of center for a right-y helps 2 things. 1. Bad trigger pull. 2. spin drift is negated.
If you are left handed you'll have to play the odds in the middle.

If you are Left handed and zero:

• Left of center
  • Spin drift is negated
  • Bad Trigger pull is worse to the left.
• At Center
  • spin drift is not negated
  • Bad trigger pull will balance out spin drift, good trigger will not have spin drift accounted for.
• Right of Center
  • Spin Drift is getting worse
  • Bad Trigger pull is negated.
  • Good trigger plus spin drift is further right.

Deciding will depend on the shooter and thier shooting habits.
1. If you are experienced and have very good trigger control, zero left of center.
2. If you are new to shooting and don't shoot more then 800yds regularly, where spin drift starts to make a noticeable effect on the bullet, zero right of center to fix your bad trigger pulls.
3. If you shoot longer then 800 often, and are a new shooter, zero on the center and play the odds. Then you'll have to to decide if you are going to correct for spin drift.

Remember in all of this, spin drift is only 1 to 2 % of your vertical come-up.

My real suggestion is you shoot right handed and just close your left eye. When shooting through a scope eye dominance can be overcome much easier than open sight shooting. Unless you have shot a lot left handed (since you were little) you will have better trigger pulls with your dominate hand and likely be more comfortable behind the rifle. (just my 2 cents)

Option B - Left hand twist barrel and zero just right if center.

Good Luck.

 

[Lowlight]

Not to derail the target design discussion but I’ve got a question about the comment in the podcast about setting zero one click left...

...I’m right-handed but left-eye dominate, so I shoot lefty on a right-handed action, should I then be setting my zero 1-click right of center to get the same advantage of helping to counter a slight pull of the rifle?

ETA: I prefer using 1” diamond shaped targets at 100 yard for the initial zero. I’ve got a decent astigmatism and the diamond doesn’t seem to play the same game on my eyes that circles and squares do.

yes, if you are shooting left hand you should consider looking at your pulled shots

Most righties tend to pull right, so going a click left helps

 

[jab00]

yes, if you are shooting left hand you should consider looking at your pulled shots

Most righties tend to pull right, so going a click left helps

Thanks - looking through the saved 1 inch targets that I have pasted in my data book, my shots are consistently a tenth or so high and right of my PoA (at 100 yards) even though I’m shooting lefty.

I’m reasonably confident that I have a decent zero on the gun as my buddies have shot it PoA/PoI at the same yardage without touching the turrets.

Maybe I’m actually managing to push the gun somehow rather than pull it. I’ll have to break out the GoPro and film myself to see if I can figure that out

 

[jab00]

Zeroing just left of center for a right-y helps 2 things. 1. Bad trigger pull. 2. spin drift is negated.
If you are left handed you'll have to play the odds in the middle.

If you are Left handed and zero:

• Left of center
  • Spin drift is negated
  • Bad Trigger pull is worse to the left.
• At Center
  • spin drift is not negated
  • Bad trigger pull will balance out spin drift, good trigger will not have spin drift accounted for.
• Right of Center
  • Spin Drift is getting worse
  • Bad Trigger pull is negated.
  • Good trigger plus spin drift is further right.

Deciding will depend on the shooter and thier shooting habits.
1. If you are experienced and have very good trigger control, zero left of center.
2. If you are new to shooting and don't shoot more then 800yds regularly, where spin drift starts to make a noticeable effect on the bullet, zero right of center to fix your bad trigger pulls.
3. If you shoot longer then 800 often, and are a new shooter, zero on the center and play the odds. Then you'll have to to decide if you are going to correct for spin drift.

Remember in all of this, spin drift is only 1 to 2 % of your vertical come-up.

My real suggestion is you shoot right handed and just close your left eye. When shooting through a scope eye dominance can be overcome much easier than open sight shooting. Unless you have shot a lot left handed (since you were little) you will have better trigger pulls with your dominate hand and likely be more comfortable behind the rifle. (just my 2 cents)

Option B - Left hand twist barrel and zero just right if center.

Good Luck.

yeah - I’ve been shooting lefty since I was 8 years old with my first BB gun. I haven’t really tried shooting righty with a scoped rifle that much since I could never get comfortable on that side of the gun since I’ve been on the other side for so long, and the “wrong” side of the gun just feels more natural to me after all these years.

Maybe it’s time to break out the medical tape and cover my right lens and force myself to learn.

That being said, I definitely need to work on my trigger squeeze. I don’t slap the trigger but I know that my follow through absolutely sucks. Switching from a traditional stock to an AICS chassis on my primary guns has definitely helped in this area but I’ve got a ways to go in terms of technique and definitely need to dry fire more

 

[Bayoubigcat]

Listened to #222 today so behind the curve a bit. I made some 8x11 and 3x5 targets with .36” grids that have worked well for me. Easy to adjust POI with the .1/.2 features in the targets vs dicking with 1” squares.
Below are the 8.5x11 on paper and the 3x5” note card targets.

 

[BigPineyTradingPost]

Been using these. Not bad.

 

[Emad]

I have done several different "target stickers" for me to use in classes

The sticker solution is my preferred method, vs paper, stapling, etc. I do carry some larger paper targets, but they can be a pain in the butt

We had several variations made over time,

Originally, talking about destroying aiming points, I have rolls of these targets

View attachment 7219641

this didnt' work because of the black dot, the paper was shinier than I wanted I needed a better matte finish, but it was designed for the very reason mentioned above, aim black, impact above

then for the Fundy Eval I moved to these

View attachment 7219644

Part of the issue was, during the Eval people always shot the wrong target. You tell them to shoot Target 10 and they either shoot above or below the number, they always shot the wrong line. So in the grey, I put their number on it.

View attachment 7219656
Here you can see what a typical board looks like

We had these made up, but the design was wrong and didn't work right, but also look at the board it's packed
View attachment 7219658
Those look like this
View attachment 7219659 Same thought, you can move the impact up to not destroy the aiming point

Stickers are the easiest to use, and mostly I use Shooting Cs
View attachment 7219663
And we went to a bigger board.

The space is easier to work with

Lastly I am working on this which would be a 3.5" Sticker to paste over the top once a zero is established
View attachment 7219667

Making this a 3.5" sticker means its easy to transport, it's cheap buying in bulk and sticker giant does me right

The issue was, creating the right design the first time vs these false starts

Just listened to the latest podcast. Love the orange diamond idea. I like orange lines that extend out off the tips to give me something to overlay my crosshairs on. Just a thought.
Cheers

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I like the diamonds I use them myself. The points give you a more sure reticle alignment.

Color preference is personal, but I see it this way:

Bright yellow/green is the color that the human eye sees most readily. That is why many fire engines are that color. However, the edges could wash out a bit against the white, so the addition of black borders that amount to .05 - .1 mil at 100 yards would help define the edges.

Bright orange wouldn't need the edging as badly because of increased contrast with the white, but could still probably benefit from it.

 

[Namekagon]

I like the diamonds I use them myself. The points give you a more sure reticle alignment.

Color preference is personal, but I see it this way:

Bright yellow/green is the color that the human eye sees most readily. That is why many fire engines are that color. However, the edges could wash out a bit against the white, so the addition of black borders that amount to .05 - .1 mil at 100 yards would help define the edges.

Bright orange wouldn't need the edging as badly because of increased contrast with the white, but could still probably benefit from it.

I agree that diamonds probably do a better job helping the brain subconsciously align the reticle with the diamond points, and for shooting groups to test loads, rifle, etc, they work well. However, if part of the exercise is to teach shooters to quarter the aiming point, other shapes like squares or circles that force the shooter to deliberately quarter the target might be better. Just a thought.

 

[ToddM]

To me fine tuning zero and shooting groups are two different efforts, and trying to find one target that does both is always going to compromise one or the other. However, doing them separately might take too much time in class.

I prefer to isolate the vertical and horizontal components of "zeroing" if you really want to fine tune zero and are not interested in groups. Top archers have been doing this for decades because they've learned it's easier to adjust one thing at a time. It also takes the "mental stress" away from shooting groups and lets the shooter focus their hold on only one axis at a time. One big issue I see with shooting groups for zero is that once guys blow 3-4 shots into their tiny aiming point, it's no longer distinct enough, I can see where diamond aiming points help if you are aligning reticles to them.

It's simple you shoot at a 1/8" thick vertical line to set your windage, and that's all you worry about, then you shoot at an 1/8" horizontal line to set your elevation, your zero should be done, and it will be a finer adjustment than most aiming points guys are tearing up in 3 shots. Seems like you could have a large sheet that had say 16 numbered vertical lines on it, and the same for horizontal. Heck if people shooting wrong targets is an issue have the lines different colors "#1 you shoot the orange line" etc. If traveling light is the focus you could even do this with thin detailing tape, no need to even pack paper.

 

[seansmd]

When hanging diamonds and grids do folks carry a small level?

Our target hangers can throw the eye off when affixing targets.

 

[slayer 2c]

Sorry to resurrect the dead here but I want to make sure I understand the zero 1 click left idea.

So I'm getting back into my JP and I'm going to zero it and dope it this weekend. What I understand is that I'm going to get it all dialed in and before I zero the turrets out I'm going to click one to the left and set it.

This sound right????

 

[slayer 2c]

When hanging diamonds and grids do folks carry a small level?

Our target hangers can throw the eye off when affixing targets.

I do. I also have one of those cheap measurement wheels to pace off the 100 yrd line. I found out my club is only 94 yrds from the benches that way.

 

[slayer 2c]

Your phone also has a built in level just an fyi

 

[Lowlight]

Sorry to resurrect the dead here but I want to make sure I understand the zero 1 click left idea.

So I'm getting back into my JP and I'm going to zero it and dope it this weekend. What I understand is that I'm going to get it all dialed in and before I zero the turrets out I'm going to click one to the left and set it.

This sound right????

don't over think it, just be .1 left of dead center