When using a cell phone to show your tax stamp, is a photo of the entire application page required, or just a photo of the stamp itself?
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Suppressors Tax Stamp photo on cell phone
- Thread starter Rlandry
- Start date
Why and who are you showing a tax stamp too? I have never once shown mine to anyone and I’m not going to either unless they have an ATF badge.
You should have a copy of your approved form 1/form 4 on you. I keep a copy of my trust on my google drive.
In 6 plus years I have yet to have an agent request to see my stamps.
In 6 plus years I have yet to have an agent request to see my stamps.
I see no reason to not show it to a LEO if questioned. There's no need to cause a confrontation and if he really wants to see it, he can detain you until the Fed arrives. This is simply not worth being a test case for.
Well, it's privileged tax information, no one has a right to see it without a warrant. Now, in some states it's only an affirmative defense to prosecution for a state law prohibiting possession. If that's the case, it makes sense to have a copy to avoid arrest. Even an ATF agent is not entitled to ask for your tax stamp, though they can certainly make an arrest at which point producing it would void the arrest and avoid the filing of charges.
As to copies. I'd keep a copy with the registered item just in case, it may let you avoid a real PITA. It need to show the entire document, just the stamp proves noting at all. In point of fact, an LEO, federal or local, is under no obligation to accept a copy as proof of registration, only the original document does that and you SHOULD NOT carry that around. Keep it in a safe deposit box or other secure location, as it is the ONLY actual proof the device is registered. DO NOT expect the ATF records to be correct, I've had errors that had to be corrected during almost every ATF audit, all on their end (Class II, so they get to come to see me). If they want to screw with you, the copy is not going to help.
So copy or not, you could still be arrested, at which point someone will have to recover the actual document to get you released, or you wait to be charged, make bond and get it yourself.
I've only been accosted on a range one time, in CA while I was a dealer there (Yes, you can be an NFA dealer in CA). I was at the Pala Indian Reservation range when some local LE drove in due to a noise complaint during the demonstrations. Showed them my docs (state permits, that was required) and bid them farewell. They blustered, saying there was no such thing as a state permit for machine guns. I gave them the number for DOJ and suggested they go back to base and call it in. As I'm on an Indian reservation, they can't actually make an arrest anyway. They left, never saw them again.
As to copies. I'd keep a copy with the registered item just in case, it may let you avoid a real PITA. It need to show the entire document, just the stamp proves noting at all. In point of fact, an LEO, federal or local, is under no obligation to accept a copy as proof of registration, only the original document does that and you SHOULD NOT carry that around. Keep it in a safe deposit box or other secure location, as it is the ONLY actual proof the device is registered. DO NOT expect the ATF records to be correct, I've had errors that had to be corrected during almost every ATF audit, all on their end (Class II, so they get to come to see me). If they want to screw with you, the copy is not going to help.
So copy or not, you could still be arrested, at which point someone will have to recover the actual document to get you released, or you wait to be charged, make bond and get it yourself.
I've only been accosted on a range one time, in CA while I was a dealer there (Yes, you can be an NFA dealer in CA). I was at the Pala Indian Reservation range when some local LE drove in due to a noise complaint during the demonstrations. Showed them my docs (state permits, that was required) and bid them farewell. They blustered, saying there was no such thing as a state permit for machine guns. I gave them the number for DOJ and suggested they go back to base and call it in. As I'm on an Indian reservation, they can't actually make an arrest anyway. They left, never saw them again.
I have digital copies of all mine on one drive through my email along with a copy of my trust. Longtime friend of mine is an ATF agent and said that is all you need.
Pretty much what CoryT said above. If anything it will keep you out of trouble if something comes up. I’ve had local sherif at the range question some of us when we had a bunch of SBR’s and suppressors out. A buddy informed him that he didn’t have the legal authority to ask us for them which pissed him off but I showed him mine and calmed him down a bit. Lol.
I know several others that had an office supply store make copies and Shrink them down and then laminate them and he listed them on a little data book binder like a DOPE book.
Pretty much what CoryT said above. If anything it will keep you out of trouble if something comes up. I’ve had local sherif at the range question some of us when we had a bunch of SBR’s and suppressors out. A buddy informed him that he didn’t have the legal authority to ask us for them which pissed him off but I showed him mine and calmed him down a bit. Lol.
I know several others that had an office supply store make copies and Shrink them down and then laminate them and he listed them on a little data book binder like a DOPE book.
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The only thing I have are suppressors so I don't have to ask or the masters permission to move them around in different States. If I'm going to a different state with a can I will take a copy just for simplicity sake from a but locally I don't really give a shit... And that was before I was a reserve with the sheriff's department.
Depending on your state laws, even though the Fed controls it, it may still be a violation without a copy of stamp present. I.e., Texas penal code lists several class 2/3 items under prohibited weapons. That being said, a local LEO can detain you to investigate whether documents are in order, if not, a state arrest followed by a Fed charge usually.
So all of the "ThEy DoN't HaVe ThE AuThOrItY" guys should really reevaluate their common practices. Make a full size color copy, laminate it, keep it with you when you're in possession; original goes in the safe.
If you feel one way serves your purposes better over the other, slide that way. Just remember, always have your documents.
As always... YMMV
So all of the "ThEy DoN't HaVe ThE AuThOrItY" guys should really reevaluate their common practices. Make a full size color copy, laminate it, keep it with you when you're in possession; original goes in the safe.
If you feel one way serves your purposes better over the other, slide that way. Just remember, always have your documents.
As always... YMMV
I get all the arguments... but I keep minimized copies of all my stamps in each gun bag. If asked I will show...
Wait until some faggot DNR officer shows up while you are varmint hunting on private land. Was hell bent on seizing my rifle stamp or no stamp (had them with me) because “that’s a silencer and that’s illegal”
These low iq types are paid regardless if they are right or wrong. They seize your gun because you didn’t show them your atf permission slip. Go to court and prove them all wrong. You are out time and money. They are getting paid.
Email yourself pdf scans of your stamps or store them on the cloud thingy. If you ever misplaced a paper copy and were asked to produce one, chances are good you have your phone in your pocket.
Had a friend that was asked by a range officer to see his stamps... he didn’t want to make a scene so he showed them via his phone. The RO said it wasn’t good enough on a phone because they can be digitally altered. Luckily my friend had color copies in his bag. I know, I know the backlash will be the the bleeping RO... my buddy didn’t want to pack up and roll so he went along with the request. I’ve heard about other RO’s asking for stamps or asking the individual to leave the line.
I've been asked about my stamps before by ROs, more or less I said yea I got some stamps, and went on with what I was doing. There is nothing more annoying than someone trying to police outside their lane, or trying to talk to you when you're paying per hour to shoot.
If I were your friend I would have told the RO to mind his own business, if he persisted I'd ask for a refund, and I wouldn't be going back to that range. I like to vote with my money sometimes, leave some feedback later, and roll on with my life in friendlier waters.
If I were your friend I would have told the RO to mind his own business, if he persisted I'd ask for a refund, and I wouldn't be going back to that range. I like to vote with my money sometimes, leave some feedback later, and roll on with my life in friendlier waters.
All of my stamps have the sn written on them. Like to know who is going through the trouble to photoshop a stolen can sn onto a form 4. I would have asked the ro how he could tell if a paper copy of a form 4 wasn’t digitally altered. What a fucking tool. I had an RO ask to produce stamps once, haven’t been to that range since. I also told him they were all stolen cans.
I used to be worried about it. Now damn near every gun store has cans and nobody has ever bothered me about it.
I had some copies at one point. I've not worried about them in years.
I did have to threaten one deputy with a report to the ATF. Something about asking for all her info so I could report the illegal search and seizure of a controlled item to the ATF and state AG sure got her attention.
She was a power tripping bitch, and the sheriff and I had a talk about her.
I had some copies at one point. I've not worried about them in years.
I did have to threaten one deputy with a report to the ATF. Something about asking for all her info so I could report the illegal search and seizure of a controlled item to the ATF and state AG sure got her attention.
She was a power tripping bitch, and the sheriff and I had a talk about her.
Adventure Outdoors in Smyrna GA sells cans but requires you to show your tax stamp to use their range with one. I was a member there as it is very close and dealt with it by showing my stamp on my phone until one day I was asked 3x by different employees to show my stamp. I canceled the next week(had to wait as they will only cancel a membership the last 5 days of the month) and haven't been back to their range. F'm
You know some people say that would just show their paper. I was asked by and old range officer about my suppressor and my SBR. He tried to tell me I am required to show him and all this shit because suppressors are illegal.
told his old ass to eat a dick and the only thing he could do was tell me to leave the range if he wanted.
stay in your lane you old retired angry bastard that doesn’t have shit else do but try and police and flat range with nothing but a few berms.
I would show my stamp if they had a legitimate reason to ask and I wouldn’t be difficult for no reason but people seem to think you have to do everything they want now days.
just say no to whatever simple question yoir asked by a stranger next time. The look of shock that they were told no will tell you everything about them. Waitress “can you hand me they menu?” “ no” OMG! So rude!
told his old ass to eat a dick and the only thing he could do was tell me to leave the range if he wanted.
stay in your lane you old retired angry bastard that doesn’t have shit else do but try and police and flat range with nothing but a few berms.
I would show my stamp if they had a legitimate reason to ask and I wouldn’t be difficult for no reason but people seem to think you have to do everything they want now days.
just say no to whatever simple question yoir asked by a stranger next time. The look of shock that they were told no will tell you everything about them. Waitress “can you hand me they menu?” “ no” OMG! So rude!
I do not carry stamps on me. They are locked up as they should be. I know a Treasury Agent and he said that it is a Tax Stamp, therefore Treasury does has the legal right to request it, them and the ATF. Other then that no.
That being said, you can be arrested for anything and the Supreme Court has upheld that cops (of all types, local, state, or fed) are not actually required to know the laws they are supposed to enforce. So it doesn't matter, stupid will win.
I have been asked one time and my responce was; if you have a need to know then you have the ability to call in the serial number and find out if it is legally owned or not.
I did once get asked by a very yong local cop at a range..... the Range Officer told him by name to shut up and leave me alone.
That being said, you can be arrested for anything and the Supreme Court has upheld that cops (of all types, local, state, or fed) are not actually required to know the laws they are supposed to enforce. So it doesn't matter, stupid will win.
I have been asked one time and my responce was; if you have a need to know then you have the ability to call in the serial number and find out if it is legally owned or not.
I did once get asked by a very yong local cop at a range..... the Range Officer told him by name to shut up and leave me alone.
RO's, public ranges, leo asking for stamps, what is this nonsense bahaha???
I'm good...
I'm good...
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Yet the tax slave must know every law. “Ignorance is no excuse “
You can sue them individually and the city if they are wrong (not knowing the law) though; for lost freedom (time), suffering, lost income, and defamation.
Why would they give a crap?
Money will come from the tax slave.
It should come from the individual and they would have to carry malpractice insurance like other professions. Fuck up enough or bad enough and you are no longer a cop because you are uninsurable. Like some drivers.
At the least it should come from the officers retirement funds and or the departments budget.
No consequences = them doing whatever they want. No regards for the constitution or killing dogs it arresting people for personal reasons etc
And don't foget that it is a felony to lie to a federal agent........ and yet they lie ALL THE TIME.
That is a bit of a joke, because all that happens is they get paid extra to show up in court when you might be granted some money out of your own pocket and your neigbour's pockets for what they did and they can get back to being as evil as they want to be and probably getting paid overtime for it.
The lack of being held personally responsible, both criminally and financially is a big part of why police and government types are happy to be tyrants and run roughshod over your rights without any care.
That and the profession draws people that want to subjugate/have power over others like those that were bullies or bullied in school and have a chip on their shoulder. Kind of like politicians.
Some are drawn b c they want to help people but even a small percentage of the first type is going to malign the entire profession .
It’s all circumstances and choices. I live in Florida, so decent rifle ranges are scarce and long distance rifle ranges are almost like hens teeth. I have copies of my signed tax stamp page and my trust on my phone. I do also carry reduced (1/4 size) laminated copies In one of my range bags.
And yes, I was once asked by some new RSO, at the local range I belong to, to produce my papers for the can. I have been a member there for over 11 years and the closest other option for me is almost two hours away. I told him that he has no legal right to ask nor see my tax stamp unless he was ATF. He bristled and said that it is in the rules of the club that they can ask for proof that your class 3 item is legal or I would be asked to leave the range.
I was really getting hot by then and could have elevated it by telling him to pound sand and go get the owner of he had a problem, but I was with a friend and his impressionable 10 yo son and so I chose to show him the photo of the tax stamp on my phone. He asked for original paper copies and though I had the reduced copies with me, I told him that the ATF considers a digital copy to be adequate proof and he should read up and understand what he thinks he is enforcing before showing how important he thinks he is. He was unhappy, but left, probably to go whine to someone. I had no further issues then nor since, though I haven’t seen mister authority since either.
Like I said, circumstances and choices.
And yes, I was once asked by some new RSO, at the local range I belong to, to produce my papers for the can. I have been a member there for over 11 years and the closest other option for me is almost two hours away. I told him that he has no legal right to ask nor see my tax stamp unless he was ATF. He bristled and said that it is in the rules of the club that they can ask for proof that your class 3 item is legal or I would be asked to leave the range.
I was really getting hot by then and could have elevated it by telling him to pound sand and go get the owner of he had a problem, but I was with a friend and his impressionable 10 yo son and so I chose to show him the photo of the tax stamp on my phone. He asked for original paper copies and though I had the reduced copies with me, I told him that the ATF considers a digital copy to be adequate proof and he should read up and understand what he thinks he is enforcing before showing how important he thinks he is. He was unhappy, but left, probably to go whine to someone. I had no further issues then nor since, though I haven’t seen mister authority since either.
Like I said, circumstances and choices.
I just take photos of all pages and put them in a suppressor folder in my photos. I've never been asked but it's not hard to keep photos in a folder on your phone. I use iCloud so the folder will appear on any device I'm using and signed into.
My lawyer told me a couple years ago that a photo is considered the same as a photo copy, legally.
My lawyer told me a couple years ago that a photo is considered the same as a photo copy, legally.
So, this isn’t something you’ve experience with, it’s a just “what if?” or fantasy?
I would share my personal "papers" with a LEO, but an RO, F no. They can eat shit, and sand, or otherwise go F themselves.
Never been asked but it has sorta "is that legal" come up from others at ranges here and there. I have all my paperwork in a red nylon zippered document sleeve (cool little surplus find, former Royal Mail things) and once or twice have said "yes" in response to the question, while vaguely waving that at them, then dropping it back in the rifle case. Seems to look official enough I have yet to have to even sorta show an actual piece of paper.
Yes, also keep all electronic copies on my Dropbox where I keep the everything, so if needed I can find it on anything connected to the internet. All but one stamp is only digital, eFile returns, so I fear the day some local LEO who doesn't understand this stuff demands to see "the original" and I have to restrain myself from getting into a philosophical argument over what is an original digital copy.
I also am known enough at the one club that once someone said of me coming to the line with the SBR "is a real stock legal on a pistol" (every idiot has a pistol brace now) and like five others were like "yeah..." I didn't get past turning my head with a look of disdain before two others answered for me "it's not a pistol,..." in a stuff it, plebes tone.
Yes, also keep all electronic copies on my Dropbox where I keep the everything, so if needed I can find it on anything connected to the internet. All but one stamp is only digital, eFile returns, so I fear the day some local LEO who doesn't understand this stuff demands to see "the original" and I have to restrain myself from getting into a philosophical argument over what is an original digital copy.
I also am known enough at the one club that once someone said of me coming to the line with the SBR "is a real stock legal on a pistol" (every idiot has a pistol brace now) and like five others were like "yeah..." I didn't get past turning my head with a look of disdain before two others answered for me "it's not a pistol,..." in a stuff it, plebes tone.
I shrink my Form 1/4s down to about a 3x2" size laminate them with packing tape and shove them into the handle of a magul grip and put the plug in. I do this, but i've never been asked to show them.
I've also been pulled over 4 times in 10 years, and never had to disclose my stuff, or show the forms. I typically provide DL, CCW, and Mil ID when stopped. I've had 2 speeding tickets on those stops, the other half I was doing maybe 5 over and they let me go.
I've also been pulled over 4 times in 10 years, and never had to disclose my stuff, or show the forms. I typically provide DL, CCW, and Mil ID when stopped. I've had 2 speeding tickets on those stops, the other half I was doing maybe 5 over and they let me go.
I shrink all my Form 1/4 docs + trust docs down to 50% so I can get 8 original pages per printed page and keep them with the items. Ultimately, possession of a suppressor/SBS/SBR/MG is illegal in my state unless possessed in accordance with the NFA. LEOs I've met generally don't care(or want to know how they can get one for personal use), the private range I shoot shorter distances at certainly doesn't care, and the only person who has asked me directly for stamps was an annoying fudd who wasn't an RO and I just ignored him. But, on the off chance that it might help me avoid spending the night in jail, I keep them and will show them if I have to.
I know I can beat the charge if it ever actually came to court but that's far more expense than I want to jump through and I have been told by a local lawyer who does business with many FFLs that I probably would have a hard time taking any action against an LEO who arrested me because I didn't show a stamp, even after getting charges dismissed
I know I can beat the charge if it ever actually came to court but that's far more expense than I want to jump through and I have been told by a local lawyer who does business with many FFLs that I probably would have a hard time taking any action against an LEO who arrested me because I didn't show a stamp, even after getting charges dismissed
Ive been asked once in 15 years and it was an angry range douche hell bent on making your life suck like his. Told him to eat a dick. He called the cops. They were told the exact same thing since they had no probable cause or preponderance of evidence to believe or prove that they should suspect that I obtained, or possessed the rifle illegally. They agreed. That range did not get another dime from me and eventually sold to a new owner due to practices like this. Not everyone in our community is your friend.
The only time I will produce paperwork is if handcuffs come out or an ATF/Treasury prick requests under illegal allowance by illegitimate laws...
The only time I will produce paperwork is if handcuffs come out or an ATF/Treasury prick requests under illegal allowance by illegitimate laws...
You sure about this? On all my Form 1's and Form 4's I've completed it clearly states:
"Proof of Registration: A person possessing a firearm registered as required by the NFA shall retain proof of registration which shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request."
If I need to show the stamp, I'll show them pages 1 and 2 of the approved Form 1 and Form 4.
I was paranoid about paperwork at first. Then I started to notice at my range that often times there are more people shooting suppressed than not. I've never been asked, questioned, or looked at strangely (even by Fudds). And if one were to ask, I would ask them for some credentials proving they are ATF or IRS. Other than that, they can call the police or whatever they think they need to do. My paperwork stays in my safe, it's nobody else's business but mine and the Feds.
I took mine to office depot and had them shrunk down to the size of a credit card, front and back the entire form, the one range officer who thought he was the ATF didnt appreciate when I handed him that little copy at all and said he was going to call the cops, just laughed flashed my badge and told him I didnt really think they would care. I love messing with range nazis.
I just wanna remind you subjects to wear your mask, social distance and keep copies and pictures of your stamps like good servants of the crown...that is all
Nobody has ever asked me.
But if they did, I would show them a copy of the stamps and forms that's rolled up in the grip handles.
But I will also agree that my attitude could change from that if it were just an RO at the range being a dick.
But if they did, I would show them a copy of the stamps and forms that's rolled up in the grip handles.
But I will also agree that my attitude could change from that if it were just an RO at the range being a dick.
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the newest recruit of the fucktard army.
Originals are laminated and in the safe.
Full sized color copies go in the appropriate rifle cases (No Mask stamp with the .338LM ) as well as the hard case the cans live in. What? I only have 2 so far and if Mr.ATF wants to see the items he isn't looking in the gun safe unless he demands originals.
Digital copies go in a folder in my phone (iCloud off) in case of theft. I have pics of the S/Ns for the guns I'm traveling with at that time as well just in case. Will I present the stamps if asked by an LEO? Yes, as a stranger in a strange land, I want to continue my trip... Not think about how lousy I look in orange jumpsuit.
Full sized color copies go in the appropriate rifle cases (No Mask stamp with the .338LM
) as well as the hard case the cans live in. What? I only have 2 so far and if Mr.ATF wants to see the items he isn't looking in the gun safe unless he demands originals.Digital copies go in a folder in my phone (iCloud off) in case of theft. I have pics of the S/Ns for the guns I'm traveling with at that time as well just in case. Will I present the stamps if asked by an LEO? Yes, as a stranger in a strange land, I want to continue my trip... Not think about how lousy I look in orange jumpsuit.
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