Techniques & equipment for load testing F-Class & PRS loads on BENCH?

[JimGnitecki]

This is going to be a question, that on the surface, will sound illogical, but bear with me.

I am teaching myself to shoot long distance, up to 1000 yards, with a view towards later participation in F-Class, Precision Rifle, and maybe in the future even some informal Benchrest shooting.

For F-Class shooting I will use a Rempel F-Class bipod and Protektor DR Flattop rear bag with mid ears, 1" slot (widest available), and filed with :Heavy Sand" (20 lb total weight for the bag).

For PRS shooting I will use a Harris bipod and a Tab Gear STR8Laced Ultra Light Rear Bag.

I have a PGW Defence M15-XRS, which is a Remington 700 pattern rifle on an MDT XRS chassis. Caliber is 6.5 Creedmoor. Recoil is very light as I am, and will continue, to use handloads based on the 120g Hornady ELD Match bullet. One non-typical feature; The XRS chassis has a toe that is 1.25" wide on the bottom, which includes a 1/8" radius on each side edge. The rifle shoots 5-shots 100 yard groups under 0.33 inch, even with my amateurish techniques at this point. The rifle with 24" heavy fluted barrel and scope weighs 14 lb.

I am doing load development, and for the load development, I have some specific objectives:
- Test the loads using the Rempel and Harris bipods, as that is what I will be using for actual shooting
- Factor out the human element as much as possible, as I want to test the ammunition I make, not the rifle, and not my technique (which is still amateurish).

So, I want to use "Benchrest" techniques to the extent possible.

Given the rifle, the 2 very different bipods, and my objectives, what load testing setup guidance (equipment and techniques) can any of you experienced in either F-Class or PRS or Benchrest offer to a newbie in these types of shooting?

Jim G

 

[Dthomas3523]

Take classes and learn to shoot before worrying about learning to load ammo and eating up time testing ammo.

If you can’t outshoot ammo you make with moderate velocity powder charge that’s shooting .7-1moa (just pick a charge for a chosen velocity and mess with seating depth a little to get it shooting decent), then spending time developing the best ammo possible is a waste of time.

 

[308pirate]

Take classes and learn to shoot before worrying about learning to load ammo and eating up time and money testing ammo.

If you can’t outshoot ammo you make with moderate velocity powder charge that’s shooting .7-1moa (just pick a charge for a chosen velocity and mess with seating depth a little to get it shooting decent), then spending time developing the best ammo possible is a waste of time and money.

FIFY BUT......................

 

[OREGUN]

Two different disciplines requiring two different approaches. I’ve shot both.

For PRS, work on your fundamentals from improvised positions, barricades shot sitting, kneeling, standing, with whatever load you like that shoots anything less than 1 MOA. Don’t sit at a bench and don’t worry about becoming a prone group-shooter. Few matches will have you shooting prone anyway and you get no additional points for making small groups.

For F-class, your load sounds adequate if you are getting .3” groups at 100. How are your groups at 300 yds? 600 yds? The trend toward 7mm projectiles has been pretty strong in f-class but if you are holding a relatively small vertical at 600 yds, work on process and wind instead of chasing a new load. With 6.5, you’ll be in F-Open which means you might want to think about a rest (seb, for example) instead of a bipod. You’ll likely want a lighter trigger for group shooting than PRS. Work on setup so your rifle and rear bag are working together (square to the target, recoiling straight back, smoothly). Think about mitigating mirage from your barrel, a heat shield or fan. Dwell time with a round in a hot chamber can/will effect vertical so don’t close the bolt and then sit around thinking about your shot, especially late in a string when your chamber is hot.

Consistency is everything in group shooting. Every part of your load, the case, the charge, the bullet, the primer, seating depth, primer seating, etc should be as consistent as you can make it. Likewise with your setup and firing sequence. Do it exactly the same, every time. Watch guys who shoot well and learn their consistency tricks.

Good luck. Both disciplines are fun, especially with good people to shoot with.

 

[OREGUN]

If you really want to nerd out on reloading specifically, and this is all only for f-class, you can get away with much less geeked out reloading for PRS, I’d highly recommend heading over to accurateshooting.com and watching YouTube by F-Class John and Erik Cortina. Get click-adjustable or Micrometer dies that make it easier to make small adjustments to case size and seating depth. Really focus initially on charge weight consistency and seating/neck tension consistency. For me, this means using neck mandrels, an arbor seating press with a pressure gauge, regulated tumbling time and sometimes graphite in the necks. Have a reliable chronograph that you can use without affecting barrel harmonics (pretty much means a LabRadar). Be prepared to do a lot of testing. Everyone who reloads will have a different list of “most critical parts of the process”. In my experience, precision reloading has an element of art to it. Trust the numbers and your results but be ready to accept that sometimes what you see on paper doesn’t entirely match with what your ES/SD (for example) says should be happening….don’t let the tail wag the dog. Sorry I’m not more specific. If it was as easy as “get this press, do this thing” you wouldn’t have to ask the question.

 

[JimGnitecki]

FIFY BUT......................

View attachment 7646942

308pirate and DThomas: What you say is accurate, but as a SHOOTER, I am not a newbie. I have been shooting for ove rhalf a century. The NEW things I need to elarn are:
- How to shoot F-Class
- How to shoot PRS
- How to ACCURATELY test handloaded ammo to the precision levels needed for F-Class at 600 to 1000 yards. THAT is why I am asking about techniques to use in bench testing my loads, so that I can factor out MY performance and see the LOAD performance.

Jim G

 

[308pirate]

308pirate and DThomas: What you say is accurate, but as a SHOOTER, I am not a newbie. I have been shooting for ove rhalf a century. The NEW things I need to elarn are:
- How to shoot F-Class
- How to shoot PRS
- How to ACCURATELY test handloaded ammo to the precision levels needed for F-Class at 600 to 1000 yards. THAT is why I am asking about techniques to use in bench testing my loads, so that I can factor out MY performance and see the LOAD performance.

Jim G

Your over 50 years of experience (or one year of experience repeated 50 times) don't count towards what you want to do now. So yes, you are a noob.

The advice from @Dthomas3523 is spot on. Take it, or not.

One final tip: A rifle optimized for PRS will suck in F class (unless it's F/TR which you cannot shoot with anything other than 308 Win or 223 Rem). An F-Open rifle is completely unsuitable for PRS work

You need to either pick one discipline or get two rifles

 

[JimGnitecki]

Two different disciplines requiring two different approaches. I’ve shot both.

For PRS, work on your fundamentals from improvised positions, barricades shot sitting, kneeling, standing, with whatever load you like that shoots anything less than 1 MOA. Don’t sit at a bench and don’t worry about becoming a prone group-shooter. Few matches will have you shooting prone anyway and you get no additional points for making small groups.

For F-class, your load sounds adequate if you are getting .3” groups at 100. How are your groups at 300 yds? 600 yds? The trend toward 7mm projectiles has been pretty strong in f-class but if you are holding a relatively small vertical at 600 yds, work on process and wind instead of chasing a new load. With 6.5, you’ll be in F-Open which means you might want to think about a rest (seb, for example) instead of a bipod. You’ll likely want a lighter trigger for group shooting than PRS. Work on setup so your rifle and rear bag are working together (square to the target, recoiling straight back, smoothly). Think about mitigating mirage from your barrel, a heat shield or fan. Dwell time with a round in a hot chamber can/will effect vertical so don’t close the bolt and then sit around thinking about your shot, especially late in a string when your chamber is hot.

Consistency is everything in group shooting. Every part of your load, the case, the charge, the bullet, the primer, seating depth, primer seating, etc should be as consistent as you can make it. Likewise with your setup and firing sequence. Do it exactly the same, every time. Watch guys who shoot well and learn their consistency tricks.

Good luck. Both disciplines are fun, especially with good people to shoot with.

Thak-you, Oregon! These are helpful pieces of advice! I considered getting a SEB rets versus a Rempel bipod, but the SEB rests are way heavier, way more costly, and totally unavailable to me right now in Canada. The SEB F-Class bipod is also unavailable to me.

I have a good friend who has won Provincial championships with his Rempel bipod over many years. He is advising me on F-Class techniques based on using the Rempel.

However, he has no interest in Benchrest, so has never studied Benchrest techniques. That's why I am HERE asking the Benchrest questions, so I can apply proven Benchrest techniques to my load testing.

A recent accidental discovery has prompted me to do this:

I was testing my latest 6.5 Creedmoor load and realized that I was not very relaxed - struggling a bit to get a relaxed position. I finally realized that I was straining to get high enough to get my cheek on the adjustable comb (set at its lowest height) and to get my eye to the right height for a proper view through the scope (scope height was already set to achieve natural POA when my cheek was on the comb).

I realized I had been, like all the other shooters at our range, using the various chairs that had been "donated" to the range by members, whenever I did bench shooting. The chairs vary in height. Also, the chairs vary in their seat material: Some are hard plastic, while some are padded vinyl with different thicknesses and firmness of vinyl! I realized I had a HUGE uncontrolled variable that I had been ignorantly ignoring.

I folded up a large piece of member donated carpet to build up the seat height incrementally until I felt "relaxed" in my shooting position. What a difference it made! My best group size went from 0.3" to .20". And, I shot that group feeling much less fatigued from doing so.

So I did 2 things:

- I ordered an adjustable stool with the adjustment range, rigid construction, and compact portability features I need to have a CONSISTENT and properly adjustable shooting platform to build my overall position upon, and

- I started to Google Benchrest techniques. This is why I am here on this forum right now. I'd like to hear what ELSE I might have totally missed about proper bench techniques!

Interestingly, I looked at a lot of photos of Benchresters shooting at Benchrest competitions. No photographer ever seems to notice the chairs or stools the shooters are individually sitting on, as they are NEVER highlighted in the photos. Yet, when you look closely, you see an amazing variety of types, heights, and textures. Because no one ever comments on the chairs or stools, you are left wondering: Did that shooter select that seat height, that seat softness or hardness, and that seat shape, because they are optimal for him or her, OR did they simply grab whatever chair or stool was available and "adapt" to it, despite any shortcomings in it, without thinking about it? (Like I had done). I want to do better than that.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

If you really want to nerd out on reloading specifically, and this is all only for f-class, you can get away with much less geeked out reloading for PRS Agree, I’d highly recommend heading over to accurateshooting.com and watching YouTube by F-Class John and Erik Cortina Doing that. Get click-adjustable or Micrometer dies that make it easier to make small adjustments to case size and seating depth Using the Redding Competition micrometer die. Really focus initially on charge weight consistency Using the RCBS Charegmaster Lite to dispense and seating/neck tension consistency Using Lapua cases and necksizing with bushing and mandrel. For me, this means using neck mandrels, an arbor seating press Using a Forster Coax with a pressure gauge, regulated tumbling time and sometimes graphite in the necks. Have a reliable chronograph using a Labradar that you can use without affecting barrel harmonics (pretty much means a LabRadar). Be prepared to do a lot of testing Yes, in progress but hampered by the lack of knowledge on benchrest techniques. Everyone who reloads will have a different list of “most critical parts of the process”. In my experience, precision reloading has an element of art to it. Trust the numbers and your results but be ready to accept that sometimes what you see on paper doesn’t entirely match with what your ES/SD (for example) says should be happening….Tell em about it! I have a pistol load for my SIG P210A with bad SD and ES but it consistently shoots 0.6" 5-shot groups at 25 yards, which is sensationally good for a handgun don’t let the tail wag the dog. Sorry I’m not more specific. If it was as easy as “get this press, do this thing” you wouldn’t have to ask the question.

Yes, I am doing much of what you said as part of the handloading! See me responses in red font above!

Jim G

 

[6.5SH]

You mention Cortina, watch his videos on load development. When he shoots he uses the same gear and position he does for F-Class not a bench.
You are setting yourself up for frustration.

As to Benchrest seating, drummer's thrones are quite common as they are quickly adjustable for height.

 

[JimGnitecki]

One final tip: A rifle optimized for PRS will suck in F class (unless it's F/TR which you cannot shoot with anything other than 308 Win or 223 Rem). An F-Open rifle is completely unsuitable for PRS work

You need to either pick one discipline or get two rifles

This sounds important. What specific differences make the rifles for F-Class and PRS non-compatible?

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

You mention Cortina, watch his videos on load development. When he shoots he uses the same gear and position he does for F-Class not a bench.
You are setting yourself up for frustration.

As to Benchrest seating, drummer's thrones are quite common as they are quickly adjustable for height.

I disagree about shooting load development with exactly the same gear and position as in F-Class. I think it is important to know how well the combination of rifle and ammunition can shoot with the human input minimized. That's the only way you can know if there is a defect (or perhaps an unavoidable reality) in your shooting techniques. If your shooting technique in competition garb, position, techniques, etc is imperfect, and you use the same imperfect combinaiton to test your handloads, you might assume that is the best that can be done, without realizing that it is NOT the best that you can do, if only you could remove whatever defect or impediment is hidden within your competition garb or position or techniques.

As for the drummer thrones: I looked at those very extensively before ordering something different. ALL the drummer thrones:
- seem to have padded seats,
- they try to be lightweight for easier portability, and
- they also generally fold up for easier transportability.

These 3 attributes are all NEGATIVES for shooting as accurately as possible!

The padded seats introduce variability by virtue of their flexibility, and they also CHANGE with time as the padding foam ages. Light weight is directly counter to the HEAVY weight that the best bench shooting requires. And folding introduces less rigidity and also wear over time. So, I do not regard drummer thrones as a good solution.

I ordered a stool with the following features:
- Solid metal frame with good, but not overly heavy weight (heavy enough to be stable, but not too heavy to carry from car to bench)
- Adjustment is via rotating the stooltop to go up or down on a strong large diameter central vertical screw
- Rigidity when desired height is achieved by locking the seat height with a jam nut controlled by a 6 inch lever (easy to sue and holds the seat firmly against rotation and height change when locked)
- Seat is solid wood (no flex and no change in height or degradation over time) sandwiched onto a METAL disc that is welded to the central screw
- 4 legs, with individual height adjusters on each leg, in case the floor at the shooting station is not perfectly level and smooth
- Ring footrest, in case the bench height is high enough that your feet would be off the floor when in shooting position
- The solid wood top also allows you to add more height by placing a second (or even 3rd) wood disc on top of it, if you encounter a bench that is REALLY high and requires more than normal stool height
- The entire stool assembly in its lowest adjustment position is only 15" high and about 14" in diameter, for easy transportability in my car

These features make the drummer thrones seem lame!

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Now THIS (see photo) qualifies as a shooting stool suitable for benchrest testing of loads:

- Solid, smooth, no-give thick, heavy wooden seat

- Seat even reinforced with metal frame to which the ret of the stool mounts (NOT just screwed into the bottom of the seat)

- Huge adjustment range: 15” to 24”, but obviously the lower you go, the less potential play in the screw thread as more thread depth is engaged

- Big-ass jam nut (2” OD) with lever to easily and positively lock the seat against rotation and height changes once at desired height

- Ring footrest for situations where the bench is REALLY tall or your required front and rear rests are for a specific shot are really tall

- All metal frame (no looseness, no flex, plenty of stabilizing weight

- Weighs 15.10 lb, so plenty of stability, but easy too carry when set to lowest height and locked there (see next photo I will send)

- height adjustment knobs on each individual leg, for where the ground surface is uneven

- Very easy to stack extra wood plates on top (after drilling 2 indexing holes) for bizarre situations where a LOT of extra height is needed for some reason, or if you simply want more threads engaged on the central screw for the ultimate in rigidity. 2 more one-inch thick wood plates added on top would make the stool the envy of all the bench resters measuring their groups in hundredths of an inch!

$90 delivered from Amazon. In 2 days.

Awesome!

Jim G

 

[phlegethon]

Shooter input is pretty minimal in F-Open. And it’s hard to see how learning a third discipline (benchrest) is going to make it easier to master two other shooting sports. But good luck.

 

[phlegethon]

This sounds important. What specific differences make the rifles for F-Class and PRS non-compatible?

Jim G

A few things off the top of my head:
- F class scopes are generally SFP and very high magnification. PRS will be moderate mag and FFP.
- F open stocks are designed to track in a mechanical front test and hard rear bag, and that’s basically it. They aren’t designed to have bipods mounted, nor tripods, nor to balance on barricades. The length of pull and comb height will be set up for prone shooting only. PRS stocks and chassis are designed to be far more flexible and rugged.
- actions used for F class, at least by competitive shooters, are single feed only. Actions used in PRS are magazine fed.

 

[OREGUN]

This sounds important. What specific differences make the rifles for F-Class and PRS non-compatible?

It’s not “non-compatible” but rather a rifle optimized for one is not optimal for the other. F-class is essentially a benchrest game. A three inch forend limit and a weight limit means you have a wide forend, sometimes offset, with the action set low to keep the center of gravity down low, often a super light trigger and a scope with little to no reticle hash, MOA turrets and higher magnification.

A PRS gun will be be designed to shoulder consistently, under time stress, in a variety of positions…so eye relief might not be perfect in prone but is better in seated/kneeling/standing. The scope will be lower magnification (20x max perhaps), have mil turrets for faster dialing, reticle hash for holdovers. There’s no weight limit, and you can use (and most people would say should use) a muzzle brake.

For f-class, I use a custom made laminate stock, a custom bottom eject action and a max 50x MOA/MOA scope.

For PRS, an MPA chassis, a Remington 700 clone action, and a MIL/MIL max 25x scope that I rarely turn up past 20 in competition.

Jim G

As an aside:

I kinda think you are overestimating “benchrest” techniques….and you really will find a lot more benchrest shooters at accurateshooter.com than on the hide. Precision reloading always comes down to consistency. Based on your responses, you are already doing most of the important parts. Annealing? Look in to ways to make your chargemaster as reliable as possible, consider double weighing charges to verify consistency…my chargemaster is not what I would consider to be “benchrest” accurate without some additional help.

I hear what you are saying about trying to take the shooter influence out but shooting from a bench will create some negative transfer when it’s time to shoot prone in competition. The rifle, the ammo, the shooter. It’s a system. With practice you will begin to see when you are the problem…to think you can become an expert bench shooter in order to develop good ammo is a mistake, IMHO. If you are shooting .3s with your ammo, your load is approaching (possibly even arrived at) “good enough”. Shoot in the style you will compete in. If you are making 2” groups at 600 yds, then worry about improving your load. All testing comes down to is make minor adjustments in an effort to improve, if it’s not an improvement, give it up and try a different change. That’s my advice on that.

 

[phlegethon]

I should also mention, not for the OP who is clearly uninterested in the advice of others, but just in general, that if you have a rifle and load that shoots under 1 MOA most of the time then further load development is a pure waste of time for PRS unless you are in the top 10-20%.

 

[JimGnitecki]

A few things off the top of my head:
- F class scopes are generally SFP and very high magnification. PRS will be moderate mag and FFP.
- F open stocks are designed to track in a mechanical front test and hard rear bag, and that’s basically it. They aren’t designed to have bipods mounted, nor tripods, nor to balance on barricades. The length of pull and comb height will be set up for prone shooting only. PRS stocks and chassis are designed to be far more flexible and rugged.
- actions used for F class, at least by competitive shooters, are single feed only. Actions used in PRS are magazine fed.

I agree that a fully specialized F-Class rifle might not be suitable for PRS, but I don't have a fully specialized F-Class rifle.

Attached is a photo of my rifle. Note the Harris bipod. I also have the Rempel bipod for F-Class that mounts on the Picatinny rail visible in the photo rearward of the Harris. The Rempel bipod is a staple in F-Class shooting for folks who prefer it over a rest (My F-Class bnuddy, who has won several Provincial championships, uses one), and mine mounts and dismounts in seconds off that Picatinny.

Yes, my rifle might not be suitable for a shooter who is focused on F-Class only, but it is fine for my anticipated level of shooting.

The scope difference is not a deal killer.I used my Vortex 15-60 x 52 SFF scope at widely different magnificaitons, and can estimate range pretty well with my MOA-marked reticle.

My "stock" is actually an MDT aluminum chassis covered with polymer and disguised to look "conventional". It is plenty rugged. The bottom surface of the toe is FLAT, level (not tapered upward towards the front) and 1.25" wide, which means it will slide nicely in a flattop rear bag (The rear Picatinny dismounts easily (remove 2 bolts in the sling stud holes). It is not set up for prone shooting only (The 0.25" groups I've already shot have been off the bench, not prone).

My action uses standard AICS magazines. F-Class allows you to have the EMPTY mag in place, and single feed loading, required by the rules, is super easy and 100% reliable with the empty mag in place.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

As an aside:

I kinda think you are overestimating “benchrest” techniques….and you really will find a lot more benchrest shooters at accurateshooter.com than on the hide. Precision reloading always comes down to consistency. Based on your responses, you are already doing most of the important parts. Annealing? Look in to ways to make your chargemaster as reliable as possible, consider double weighing charges to verify consistency…my chargemaster is not what I would consider to be “benchrest” accurate without some additional help.

I hear what you are saying about trying to take the shooter influence out but shooting from a bench will create some negative transfer when it’s time to shoot prone in competition. The rifle, the ammo, the shooter. It’s a system. With practice you will begin to see when you are the problem…to think you can become an expert bench shooter in order to develop good ammo is a mistake, IMHO. If you are shooting .3s with your ammo, your load is approaching (possibly even arrived at) “good enough”. Shoot in the style you will compete in. If you are making 2” groups at 600 yds, then worry about improving your load. All testing comes down to is make minor adjustments in an effort to improve, if it’s not an improvement, give it up and try a different change. That’s my advice on that.

Thanks, Oregun. I intend to use the Bench shooting ONLY for load development. I'm hoping to avoid annealing, as my cases don't seem to grow much with each firing (tight chamber and moderate loads - only 2700 fps with 120g bullet), and my F-Class buddy, who does have rifles that need case annealing, tells me that based on what I have shown him about my Lapua cases, he thinks I might not have to leartn annealing for a while!

I have temporarily focused on the load development primarily because my F-Class buddy tells me that a 0.2 MOA load off a bench often produces a notably larger group at 600 or 1000 yards (even in the absence of notable wind)! So, I'm trying to "optimize" my load while it is all fresh in my mind.So far, I've only tried 2 different COALs, and have a ways to go on COAL testing, as I am (for starting load safety) still at .039"off the rifling!

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

I should also mention, not for the OP who is clearly uninterested in the advice of others, but just in general, that if you have a rifle and load that shoots under 1 MOA most of the time then further load development is a pure waste of time for PRS unless you are in the top 10-20%.

Maybe a 1 MOA rifle is fine in PRS, but not F-Class. The 10 ring in F-Class is ONE MOA in diameter. The X-ring is 0.5 MOA. So, a 1 MOA rifle won't cut it.

I am in Canada, and my rifle was built by PGW Defence Industries - the folks that are equipping many International armies with their sniper rifles. They recently made a 7-figure sale of sniper rifles to Ukraine. My rifle is PGW's lowest cost rifle, but still cost $3700 plus taxes and shipping. They make some fantastic rifles. My F-Class buddy suggested I look into them as many of his fellow F-Class shooters have them and love them.

Jim G

p.s. It's not that I am uninterested in advice from others. I just like the advice to be accurate.

 

[phlegethon]

Maybe a 1 MOA rifle is fine in PRS, but not F-Class. The 10 ring in F-Class is ONE MOA in diameter. The X-ring is 0.5 MOA. So, a 1 MOA rifle won't cut it.

I am in Canada, and my rifle was built by PGW Defence Industries - the folks that are equipping many International armies with their sniper rifles. They recently made a 7-figure sale of sniper rifles to Ukraine. My rifle is PGW's lowest cost rifle, but still cost $3700 plus taxes and shipping. They make some fantastic rifles. My F-Class buddy suggested I look into them as many of his fellow F-Class shooters have them and love them.

Jim G

Yes, I’m aware. What will hold you back in F class is your lack of suitable training and equipment (6.5 Creedmoor with 120 grain bullets is not going to be competitive). You already said your rifle is shooting 0.25-0.3 MOA, so that’s not really the issue. I think you want to screw around with other stuff besides becoming a decent PRS or F class shooter, which is totally fine. But you also seem to want to come here and have people tell you that this is a good idea and will help you in those other fields, while explaining things to us that we already know. That is less fine.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Yes, I’m aware. What will hold you back in F class is your lack of suitable training and equipment (6.5 Creedmoor with 120 grain bullets is not going to be competitive). You already said your rifle is shooting 0.25-0.3 MOA, so that’s not really the issue. I think you want to screw around with other stuff besides becoming a decent PRS or F class shooter, which is totally fine. But you also seem to want to come here and have people tell you that this is a good idea and will help you in those other fields, while explaining things to us that we already know. That is less fine.

If you "already know", why did you tell me that a 1 MOA load is "already good enough" when it clearly is NOT given a 1 MOA 10-ring?

And if you "already know", you nevertheless apparently did not even know that F-Class shooters can use either a rest or a bipod.

I asked specifically for benchrest shooting techniques that might be helpful in load testing. That's all. Everything else I have posted here is a response to someone's comment or question. How is that "want to come here and have people tell you that this is a good idea and will help you in those other fields, while explaining things to us that we already know" ?

And given your outlook, why are you bothering to follow this thread?

Jim G

 

[phlegethon]

If you "already know", why did you tell me that a 1 MOA load is "already good enough" when it clearly is NOT given a 1 MOA 10-ring?

Please read more carefully. That comment was specific to PRS.

And if you "already know", you nevertheless apparently did not even know that F-Class shooters can use either a rest or a bipod.

Where did I say that? I’m aware that one can use either in F-open, but again those who are competitive are all using rests because otherwise you’d be leaving points on the table

I asked specifically for benchrest shooting techniques that might be helpful in load testing.

And multiple people have tried to tell you this won’t help you achieve your stated goals, nor is this the place to find information on benchrest shooting (some are on accurateshooter, although I think your attitude may be an issue there too).

And given your outlook, why are you bothering to follow this thread?

Boredom?

 

[308pirate]

If you "already know", why did you tell me that a 1 MOA load is "already good enough" when it clearly is NOT given a 1 MOA 10-ring?

And if you "already know", you nevertheless apparently did not even know that F-Class shooters can use either a rest or a bipod.

I asked specifically for benchrest shooting techniques that might be helpful in load testing. That's all. Everything else I have posted here is a response to someone's comment or question. How is that "want to come here and have people tell you that this is a good idea and will help you in those other fields, while explaining things to us that we already know" ?

And given your outlook, why are you bothering to follow this thread?

Jim G

I knew there was a reason I disengaged from this thread.......

But just like a bad wreck, I had to look again.

I was not disappointed.

@phlegethon you called it.

 

[308pirate]

Now THIS (see photo) qualifies as a shooting stool suitable for benchrest testing of loads:

- Solid, smooth, no-give thick, heavy wooden seat

- Seat even reinforced with metal frame to which the ret of the stool mounts (NOT just screwed into the bottom of the seat)

- Huge adjustment range: 15” to 24”, but obviously the lower you go, the less potential play in the screw thread as more thread depth is engaged

- Big-ass jam nut (2” OD) with lever to easily and positively lock the seat against rotation and height changes once at desired height

- Ring footrest for situations where the bench is REALLY tall or your required front and rear rests are for a specific shot are really tall

- All metal frame (no looseness, no flex, plenty of stabilizing weight

- Weighs 15.10 lb, so plenty of stability, but easy too carry when set to lowest height and locked there (see next photo I will send)

- height adjustment knobs on each individual leg, for where the ground surface is uneven

- Very easy to stack extra wood plates on top (after drilling 2 indexing holes) for bizarre situations where a LOT of extra height is needed for some reason, or if you simply want more threads engaged on the central screw for the ultimate in rigidity. 2 more one-inch thick wood plates added on top would make the stool the envy of all the bench resters measuring their groups in hundredths of an inch!

$90 delivered from Amazon. In 2 days.

Awesome!

Jim G

What the fuck...........LOL

 

[308pirate]

p.s. It's not that I am uninterested in advice from others. I just like the advice to confirm my biases and pre-conceived opinions

FIFY

 

[brianf]

ill never understand humans...lol

they choose a particular source of information (no one forced him to come to the hide)

they receive reasonable advice and experience from the people on that chosen information source

then they argue their own opinions against that information hoping to confirm their original thoughts

...then why even go searching for information???

 

[phlegethon]

 

[supercorndogs]

ill never understand humans...lol

they choose a particular source of information (no one forced him to come to the hide)

they receive reasonable advice and experience from the people on that chosen information source

then they argue their own opinions against that information hoping to confirm their original thoughts

...then why even go searching for information???

In fairness when someone new comes in they don't know jack from jill, and have usually gathered information from another source they assume to be reliable.

I think we have a couple Aussies that rocked our 600y challenge with their PRS rifles, they also said they shot in BR competitions and F class, from a bag and bipod. If you like to shoot, go shoot whenever you can. You aren't going to be competitive as a newbie anyway, I don't care how optimized your rifle is. You can't buy skills.

 

[High Desert duck]

^^^^^^This is the truth.
If you’re shooting small groups.2-.3 are really good. Get out and shoot. I’m a match director for our clubs Precision Rifle Match and more guys don’t improve because they think they’re not ready yet and never come out. You won’t be. Ever. The only way to improve or become good at either of these sports is to go and do it.
shooting sports are usually populated by pretty good dudes, who would love nothing more than to help you improve, and provide feedback or an opportunity to try their equipment. Now a little bad news. That break is gonna make persona non grata at a lot of FClass. And 100% of sanctioned events.

 

[JimGnitecki]

^^^^^^This is the truth.
If you’re shooting small groups.2-.3 are really good. Get out and shoot. I’m a match director for our clubs Precision Rifle Match and more guys don’t improve because they think they’re not ready yet and never come out. You won’t be. Ever. The only way to improve or become good at either of these sports is to go and do it.
shooting sports are usually populated by pretty good dudes, who would love nothing more than to help you improve, and provide feedback or an opportunity to try their equipment. Now a little bad news. That break is gonna make persona non grata at a lot of FClass. And 100% of sanctioned events.

High Desert Duck: Thanks-you. I knwo you are ocrrect about "never being ready", and plan to "get ready" by participating! The muzzle brake is removable - it threads off and I have a thread protector that replaces it! (I did check the F-Class rules)

What I think many of the above posters did not realize is that I am still very early in the process of developing a load, and my current shooting skills from a BENCH are apparently not nearly as good as either the ammunition or the rifle. So, the differences in loads are somewhat masked by shooter shortcomings. I learned that rather dramatically when I added a couple of inches of height to a shooting seat and all of a sudden I starting shooting notably better groups with the exact same load because I was in a better shooting position!

That is why the focus of THIS posting is trying to get pointers on optimizing SPECIFICALLY any subtleties relevant to shooting off a BENCH versus the normal F-Class and PRS shooting positions (prone, barricade, rooftop, etc), and especially the differences that are important when using a skid-equipped bipod (Rempel) versus a Harris bipod or a benchrest rest, and a rear bag. I currently have no idea what body height and angle relative to the rifle should be used, and what hold should be used on the rifle (light or hard), when specifically shooting load test groups from a bench.

One unexpected example: My F-Class shooting buddy (who unfortunately lives a day's drive away and is not interested in benchrest shooting anyway) casually mentioned that when he tests loads, it is on his club's shooting benches, which have glued-on carpet tops. I was surprised to hear that, since I had previously been told by more than one other shooter that when bench shooting, you don't want any "give" in the bench surface. That in fact, the best benchtop surface is smooth concrete! When I asked my friend why his club carpeted the benches, he said it was because the members have a lot of classic rifles with gorgeous wood stocks, and don't want to lay them on a hard surface. I get that, but is the carpet really a good surface for precise shooting?

So, I am trying to get advice from as many experienced shooters as I can to figure out the apparent contradictions. I am also planning to post my questions on a Benchrest-specific forum, but need to join one first, and even then, I fear that benchresters might not have any interest in tutoring a non-Benchrester. They might even laugh when I say I need to shoot groups from a Rempel bipod, since their idea of a "proper" rest probably weighs 100 lb.

I could just try to learn by myself by trial and error, but the stool height thing showed me that that might be the very LONG way to learn.

Jim G

 

[Dthomas3523]

308pirate and DThomas: What you say is accurate, but as a SHOOTER, I am not a newbie. I have been shooting for ove rhalf a century. The NEW things I need to elarn are:
- How to shoot F-Class
- How to shoot PRS
- How to ACCURATELY test handloaded ammo to the precision levels needed for F-Class at 600 to 1000 yards. THAT is why I am asking about techniques to use in bench testing my loads, so that I can factor out MY performance and see the LOAD performance.

Jim G

Your original post says otherwise. Years shooting doesn’t equal knowing how to shoot.

Otherwise, you wouldn’t need to ask how to factor out your performance. If you’re performing the shooting task properly, then you know it’s not you most of the time.

I cannot name a single instance I’ve ever heard someone say “I’ve been shooting X amount of years” who could even name the fundamentals of Marksmanship, let alone employ them.

Take classes and forget that half a century.

 

[phlegethon]

So, the differences in loads are somewhat masked by shooter shortcomings.

This is half of a critical insight. If you cannot tell the difference between two loads in development, you aren’t going to see the difference shooting them in competition either.

 

[1moaoff]

Bottom line your load is 100% suitable AS IT IS based on your comments for "your level of shooting" as you said. IF, your vertical is consistent at distance...

Typically at that level shooter skill is more of an issue. The real question is can YOU shoot the rifle to that degree of accuracy every time.

Do 20 groups avg .33"

Shooting your rifle like BENCHREST with no shooter input is a entirely different skill set.

 

[308pirate]

This guy reminds me of the gear queers in USPSA who walk around with $5000 pistols and fine tuned ammo but can't slap a standard popper down at 15 yards under 2.5 sec

 

[JimGnitecki]

This guy reminds me of the gear queers in USPSA who walk around with $5000 pistols and fine tuned ammo but can't slap a standard popper down at 15 yards under 2.5 sec

That was uncalled for. I shoot 0.6" groups at 25 yards with my SIG pistol. And 0.2 and 0.3" groups at 100 yards with the rifle show that I do have some basic skills. I asked a simple, limited scope question about shooting from a bench. If you can't provide any help, why are you posting?

Jim G

 

[6.5SH]

I think you will find these forums more indulgent on the topic of benchrest:

Benchrest in Canada - Index

Benchrest in Canada - Index

benchrestforum.ca

Benchrest Central Forums

Benchrest Central Forum - The Absolute Source of Accuracy Components, Services, Accessories, and Information for the Precision Shooter

benchrest.com

You are being redirected...

 

[JimGnitecki]

I think you will find these forums more indulgent on the topic of benchrest:

Benchrest in Canada - Index

Benchrest in Canada - Index

benchrestforum.ca

Benchrest Central Forums

Benchrest Central Forum - The Absolute Source of Accuracy Components, Services, Accessories, and Information for the Precision Shooter

benchrest.com

You are being redirected...

Thank-you, 6.5SH. Those are helpful. I will check them out.

Jim G

 

[308pirate]

why are you posting?

Because I can.

 

[High Desert duck]

@JimGnitecki
I understand the desire to have a “developed “ load prior to competing. But if you seriously have a load that shoots consistent .6 MOA 5 shot groups you will continue to be the weak link in Your system, not the ammo. Accept the fact that will not be competitive when you start competing. You will however get much better much quicker when hanging out with the guys who now their stuff. I started out shooting a cheap Remington 308 in F class. I was lucky enough to have a national champion that shoots out of our club. I learned more from him and the other guys about shooting, reloading and equipment while pasting targets in the pits than you can possibly glean from the interwebs. Shooting is a lot like welding, and like any hands on trade/skill, book learning is only worth about 25% of guided hands on learning.

Go shoot. Have fun. you will improve. Your .6 load will get you by until you start thinking, “I made a perfect shot, why was it low/right/whatever” You will know when the load is holding you back. right now a missing a wind call by 2mph is the difference between an x and 10 at 600 yards, or an X and a 9 at 1000 You will not learn to read 2 mph wind while perfecting your groups. You will learn about your groups while learning to shoot whichever sport you choose.

if you want to chase small groups that is a worthy endeavor in itself and by all means pursue it and enjoy it but, if you want to shoot fclass or PRS, do it, you’re ready. You will not improve as a long range shooter by chasing the smallest group.
Sorry if I sound preachy but I’ve watched too many guys not go out and compete or quit altogether because they think they or their equipment isn’t going to be good enough.

On a side note I would develop my load shooting from the position it will be shot during competition with the rifle in the configuration it will be shot. The brake may affect the group depending on barrel, brake, and load.

edited for a couple of typos.

 

[JimGnitecki]

@JimGnitecki
I understand the desire to have a “developed “ load prior to competing. But if you seriously have a load that shoots consistent .6 MOA 5 shot groups you will continue to be the weak link in Your system, not the ammo. Accept the fact that will not be competitive when you start competing. You will however get much better much quicker when hanging out with the guys who now their stuff. I started out shooting a cheap Remington 308 in F class. I was lucky enough to have a national champion that shoots out of our club. I learned more from him and the other guys about shooting, reloading and equipment while pasting targets in the pits than you can possibly glean from the interwebs. Shooting is a lot like welding, and like any hands on trade/skill, book learning is only worth about 25% of guided hands on learning.

Go shoot. Have fun. you will improve. Your .6 load will get you by until you start thinking, “I made a perfect shot, why was it low/right/whatever” You will know when the load is holding you back. right now a missing a wind call by 2mph is the difference between an x and 10 at 600 yards, or an X and a 9 at 1000 You will not learn to read 2 mph wind while perfecting your groups. You will learn about your groups while learning to shoot whichever sport you choose.

if you want to chase small groups that is a worthy endeavor in itself and by all means Perdue it and enjoy it but, if you want to shoot fclass or PRS, do it, you’re ready. You will not improve as a long range shooter by chasing the smallest group.
Sorry if I sound preachy but I’ve watched too many guys not go out and have compete or quit altogether because they think they or their equipment isn’t going to be good enough.

On a side note i would develop my load shooting from the position it will be shot during competition with the rifle in the configuration it will be shot the brake may affect the group depending on barrel, brake, and load.

Thank-you, High Desert Duck. You have provided a good perspective, and the reminder on the muzzle brake affecting the performance of the rifling is timely, as my thread protector has finally been delivered, and the additional recoil will surely have some effect on my F-Class shooting AND my load testing.

To your bigger point about more actual position shooting versus load development, I finally connected with another shooter at our club who seems very experienced, and he seems to have shown some interest in providing some pointers. I am looking forward to that because as you said, "guided hands-on learning" is optimal.

I also found out yesterday after sharing with my F-Class buddy some measurements taken via the Hornady OAL gage that I have a pretty tight chamber in my rifle. I found that I could do the test to find distance to the lands when using the Hornady-provided special case, but when I tried to use a fired case from my own rifle, drilled and tapped for the Hornady gage, and NOT resized of course, it will not let a bullet slide into the case easily enough to allow accurate measurement of the point of rifling engagement. The OD of the fired cases reads as .2945" on my Mitutoyo digital caliper, which is pretty tight considering I am using a .291" bushing for sizing. My buddy and I compared the fired case dimensions to the SAAMI case and chamber dimensions and tolerances, and it appears that my chamber is right near the tightest dimensions. That helps to explain why the rifle shoots so well, even with the current load which has the bullet .039" off the lands. I appear to have a lot of room for COAL experimentation.

Jim G

 

[Baron23]

and NOT resized of course

Ah....why not?

I use the Hndy modified case and then account for the diff between headspace measurements (base to shoulder, right?) of the modified case and one of my fired sized cases. So far, its been a very small diff but....wtf, I have OCD tendencies! hahaha (and, no offense meant to those who actually suffer from clinical OCD).

I just use the Hndy modified case as I don't have the equip to properly drill and tap a fired sized case and haven't bothered to find someone to do this small task as how I'm doing it seems to work fine.

Oh, also....and you may know this...I take a good number of sample distances (at least 5) with the gauge and average. If I see a real outlier, I know it was me and how I used the gauge and I toss it. Seems to be working

 

[JimGnitecki]

Ah....why not?

I use the Hndy modified case and then account for the diff between headspace measurements (base to shoulder, right?) of the modified case and one of my fired sized cases. So far, its been a very small diff but....wtf, I have OCD tendencies! hahaha (and, no offense meant to those who actually suffer from clinical OCD).

I just use the Hndy modified case as I don't have the equip to properly drill and tap a fired sized case and haven't bothered to find someone to do this small task as how I'm doing it seems to work fine.

Oh, also....and you may know this...I take a good number of sample distances (at least 5) with the gauge and average. If I see a real outlier, I know it was me and how I used the gauge and I toss it. Seems to be working

Yes, taking that measurement is an "acquired skill". Hornady warns you about that in their instructions! Why not resized? Because:

1. I had only 2 types of Lapua 6.5CM cases: brand new and once fired, and brand new is NORMALLY way too different from a fired case fired in your specific rifle, to use for this measurement

2. My experienced F-Class buddy told me that you get the most meaningful measurement when you use a fired case that has not yet been resized, as resizing restores it to whatever dimensions your die is set for, versus what your rifle chamber actually is. (The case stretches when fired and then contracts back in size only minimally after it cools from firing)

My local gunsmith drilled and tapped the fired case for me. Hornady will do it for you on your fired case for $15US if you mail it to them, but since I am in Canada, and since COVID has brought the international shipping system to a crawl, that would take too long.

I had no trouble doing the test with the case I got from Hornady. But when I tried to do it with MY FIRED case, I could not slip the bullet into the case.

After discussing "why??" with my buddy, I took some careful measurements of both the hornady case and my fired case, and compared them to the SAAMI case and chamber drawings, and we realized that both the Hornady case and my case were very close to minimum size on all key dimensions, with only a .0005" (i.e. really beyond the accuracy of the digital caliper) difference in case-to-datum length. The Hornady case is deliberately made to minimum case dimensions, and the neck on it is internally enlarged by Hornady. But I have no way to do an internal enlargement (e.g. via mandrel)without screwing up the OD. Since the Hornady case and my case are SO close to being identical, my buddy said to just use the "jump" measurement I got from it.

Jim G

 

[phlegethon]

If you can’t drop a bullet easily into a fired case, then you don’t have enough neck clearance. This may be caused by a tight chamber, a normal chamber made too tight by a carbon ring, or unusually thick brass. You may benefit from neck turning or cleaning the chamber better.

 

[Baron23]

Yes, taking that measurement is an "acquired skill". Hornady warns you about that in their instructions! Why not resized? Because:

1. I had only 2 types of Lapua 6.5CM cases: brand new and once fired, and brand new is NORMALLY way too different from a fired case fired in your specific rifle, to use for this measurement

2. My experienced F-Class buddy told me that you get the most meaningful measurement when you use a fired case that has not yet been resized, as resizing restores it to whatever dimensions your die is set for, versus what your rifle chamber actually is. (The case stretches when fired and then contracts back in size only minimally after it cools from firing)

My local gunsmith drilled and tapped the fired case for me. Hornady will do it for you on your fired case for $15US if you mail it to them, but since I am in Canada, and since COVID has brought the international shipping system to a crawl, that would take too long.

I had no trouble doing the test with the case I got from Hornady. But when I tried to do it with MY FIRED case, I could not slip the bullet into the case.

After discussing "why??" with my buddy, I took some careful measurements of both the hornady case and my fired case, and compared them to the SAAMI case and chamber drawings, and we realized that both the Hornady case and my case were very close to minimum size on all key dimensions, with only a .0005" (i.e. really beyond the accuracy of the digital caliper) difference in case-to-datum length. The Hornady case is deliberately made to minimum case dimensions, and the neck on it is internally enlarged by Hornady. But I have no way to do an internal enlargement (e.g. via mandrel)without screwing up the OD. Since the Hornady case and my case are SO close to being identical, my buddy said to just use the "jump" measurement I got from it.

Jim G

I still dont get it....F-class buddy or not.

you are not putting a fired unsized case into your chamber with a bullet it it to shoot.

you will put a sized case...with shoulder bump....and hopefully trimmed....in there.

it’s still makes no sense to me but I don’t claim to be an expert.

 

[JimGnitecki]

If you can’t drop a bullet easily into a fired case, then you don’t have enough neck clearance. This may be caused by a tight chamber, a normal chamber made too tight by a carbon ring, or unusually thick brass. You may benefit from neck turning or cleaning the chamber better.

The chamber IS tight.

The rifle has only 200 rounds fired since new.

No carbon ring (as would be expected with only 2 firings on the "oldest" cases).

The brass thickness new was .0145" and within the attainable accuracy of a Mitutoyo digital caliper, it has not changed.

Chamber is cleaned along with bore, lug pockets, and bolt, after each range session, and longest individual range session so far has been 50 rounds.

Even though a bullet cannot EASILY be pressed into a fired case, the handloaded cartridges, neck-only resized by Redding Type S bushing neck sizing die to .291", chamber easily with no bolt resistance.

Since the bullet shank diameter is .2635" and neck wall thickness is .0145", neck tension with the .291" bushing = .291" minus .2635" minus (.0145"x2) = .0015" which is about perfect for a bolt action rifle.

No pressure signs - as expected since the load is so moderate (per Hornady load table for the bullet being loaded (Hornady pn 26175)).

Since the rifle shoots so well, I am reluctant to neck turn the Lapua cases which exhibit consistent wall thickness, and none of the cases have been fired more than twice so far. And .0145" wall thickness is a good thickness.

As the saying goes: Why argue with successful (no pressure signs, good accuracy) results?

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

I still dont get it....F-class buddy or not.

you are not putting a fired unsized case into your chamber with a bullet it it to shoot.

you will put a sized case...with shoulder bump....and hopefully trimmed....in there.

it’s still makes no sense to me but I don’t claim to be an expert.

The "sizing" I am doing for each cartridge is:
Necksizing only
to .291" OD
NO body sizing required yet
NO shoulder bump required yet - only 1 previous firing on the cartridges reloaded to date. Note that the case base-to-datum gew only .003" after that first firing, to 1.5365", which is still right near the SAAMI minimum for the 6.5 Creedmoor Base-to-datum case dimension.

No trimming required yet either (case OAL currently = 1.9097" which is well under the SAAMI maximum of 1.9200)

Jim G

 

[jpcowboy]

The "sizing" I am doing for each cartridge is:
Necksizing only
to .291" OD
NO body sizing required yet
NO shoulder bump required yet - only 1 previous firing on the cartridges reloaded to date. Note that the case base-to-datum gew only .003" after that first firing, to 1.5365", which is still right near the SAAMI minimum for the 6.5 Creedmoor Base-to-datum case dimension.

No trimming required yet either (case OAL currently = 1.9097" which is well under the SAAMI maximum of 1.9200)

Jim G

What does Erik Cortina say about neck sizing only.

 

[Steel head]

308pirate and DThomas: What you say is accurate, but as a SHOOTER, I am not a newbie. I have been shooting for ove rhalf a century. The NEW things I need to elarn are:
- How to shoot F-Class
- How to shoot PRS
- How to ACCURATELY test handloaded ammo to the precision levels needed for F-Class at 600 to 1000 yards. THAT is why I am asking about techniques to use in bench testing my loads, so that I can factor out MY performance and see the LOAD performance.

Jim G

To be competitive you’ll probably find you need to unlearn a lot of things you learned in the past half decade.

 

[JimGnitecki]

What does Erik Cortina say about neck sizing only.

I know that there is disagreement about FL sizing versus neck sizing, and that some excellent champion shooters say to do full length sizing. BUT, those shooters are using custom-made dies and custom chambered rifles, made specifically to match each other. I have a production rifle and production Redding dies. And my F-Class buddy does neck sizing, gets excellent results, AND gets very long life out of his Lapua cases. I am following his lead.

I do have the body die for use when I will need to use it, just as he does.

And remember, my cartridges loaded using neck sized cases do chamber perfectly with no issues. Accuracy is great, and no pressure signs.

Why assume there is a problem?

Jim G