Tell me why again..Lapua brass

[M40_A1]

So, someone please tell me why Lapua brass is so great again. I switched to Lapua with high expectations, after I was tired of loose primers in Federal brass after 3 or 4 reloads. Now I am finding loose primers in my Lapua on my 4th reload, though I often hear of guys getting a brass life of up to 20 loadings.

Load is not hot:
.308
175 gr. SMK
42.8 gr. RL15
Fed210M
All brass in this lot has been loaded consistently, but now am finding substantial variation in primer seating pressure. (I was able to finger push two primers out of fifty using bigEd's ingenious method.) WTH?

 

[VinceB]

Lapua brass is highly regarded for its consistency - particularly in the neck area. I can run a 'no-turn' neck chamber (three thou. over a loaded round) with confidence using Lapua brass.

Most serious competition shooters from benchrest to FTR will choose Lapua. To address the primer-pocket problem you mention - try some of their Palma 308 brass. It uses a small primer and takes the pressure much better - you might even get those 20 loadings!

 

[milo 2.0]

If your pockets are loose after 4 firings, your load is warmer than you suspect. There's no getting around it.
Big Ed has a chart on primer size on here, you may be able to switch brands and get more firings.

 

[nuclear_shooter]

If your pockets are loose after 4 firings, your load is warmer than you suspect. There's no getting around it.
Big Ed has a chart on primer size on here, you may be able to switch brands and get more firings.

Not sure if this is what you meant, but it seems relevant: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-reloading/222587-what.html#post2814285

 

[milo 2.0]

Not sure if this is what you meant, but it seems relevant: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-reloading/222587-what.html#post2814285

No, not that one, but that was a good seminar he put on. It's a chart, with primer diameters, it's in the reloading forum somewhere.
Just shows you can switch brands and have tight fit for awhile!

 

[FN in MT]

How do You know the load is "not hot"?

If your getting loose PP's within 4 firings I'd say you have an over pressure issue.

 

[nuclear_shooter]

No, not that one, but that was a good seminar he put on. It's a chart, with primer diameters, it's in the reloading forum somewhere.
Just shows you can switch brands and have tight fit for awhile!

This, then: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...34072-largest-lr-primer-size.html#post2940631

 

[milo 2.0]

This, then: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...34072-largest-lr-primer-size.html#post2940631

YES

 

[M40_A1]

That's really funny, because Federal LR has the largest diameter on that list. So, what now.

42.8 gr. RL15 is nowhere near maximum. It is the basic FGMM load which was developed for the M40A1 class of rifle. I am getting 2600 fps max. out of that load on a warm day, and it hasn't been warm around here for months. I don't consider that a hot load by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[softcock]

That's really funny, because Federal LR has the largest diameter on that list. So, what now.

42.8 gr. RL15 is nowhere near maximum. It is the basic FGMM load which was developed for the M40A1 class of rifle. I am getting 2600 fps max. out of that load on a warm day, and it hasn't been warm around here for months. I don't consider that a hot load by any stretch of the imagination.

-
It's not hot at all . I run real similar/same load with same powder & bullet . I like that node right around 2600 for the 175's & #15 .

OK . When I was using Lapua brass and 155's with a HOT load going 3000 fps. I trashed canned the brass (@ 4 firing ) . It was Loose in the pockets and primers went in little to no resistance .

So reading this, I can not figure out why your Primer Pockets are loose on your Lapua brass with that normal pressure load at ONLY 4 firings ..??? .. That is real weird .
.
.
Edit add:
How tight your Barrel Bore ?
Are your heavy crimping & jamming in the Lands when chambering ? . Or did you Ream the Flash Holes when brass prepping ? . Or something different or out the ordinary you usually dont do ? with this batch of Brass ?
It just does not add-up if it is like you say ??
.

 

[M40_A1]

-
How tight your Barrel Bore ?
Are your heavy crimping & jamming in the Lands when chambering ? . Or did you Ream the Flash Holes when brass prepping ? . Or something different or out the ordinary you usually dont do ? with this batch of Brass ?

Good questions.
Standard bore, 3000 rounds through the tube.
No crimp.
.026" jump.
No pocket reamer, just uniformed for depth at initial prep.

This is the first batch/lot of .308 Lapua that I have gotten to this number of reloadings so far. All my loadings are the same. My only other lot is on its first load, so they have a ways to go for comparison purposes.

I was ready to buy more Lapua, but don't see the price advantage if they are all going to be like this. Or, since Alliant has abandoned us, I'm thinking I should just make the switch to my second best FGMM equivalent loading of 41.2 gr. IMR 4064 and see if the pockets last longer with that.

 

[FN in MT]

2600 fps shouldn't be a HOT load at all. I'm pushing 175 Bergers to 2650 in my .308 and my Lapua brass currently has 8-9 loads and PP's still tight.




Tight bore? Oversized bullets?

How are you measuring powder charges? An electronic scale? Could the scale be WAY OFF. I have seen that ...TWICE.


All I can think of.

 

[M40_A1]

Tight bore? Oversized bullets?
How are you measuring powder charges? An electronic scale? Could the scale be WAY OFF. I have seen that ...TWICE.
All I can think of.

I doubt the bore is tight, though I've never had it checked. It is a standard stainless H&S .308 barrel with 3000 rounds down it and cleaned regularly. No usual pressure signs to speak of, like difficult extraction or ejector imprints.
Std. 175 gr. SMK
Charges weighed to the granule on a balance beam scale checked with check weights (that were also verified).

Would you say that the primer seating pressures in your 8th or 9th loadings feel consistent? (Assuming you are using a method with which you can "feel" the seating pressure)
Thanks.

 

[Down South]

This does sound weird, something is causing pressure for sure......Try Wolf/Tula primers and you will get more use out of your brass, they seat tight and usually give good ES/SD numbers.

 

[lte82]

I'm thinking I should just make the switch to my second best FGMM equivalent loading of 41.2 gr. IMR 4064 and see if the pockets last longer with that.

That seems kind of low... what kind of velocities are you getting?

 

[6brshooter]

Even lapua is not impervious to flaws. Had a batch of 260 stamped lapua's that had nk thickness variations of .004 on the same piece of brass. Also had some 6 br brass that had really crooked trimmed nks from the box. Also had some burrs in the flash holes on 6 br brass. Anymore the only lapua brass i use is in my 4 6 br guns. Also had some 243 lapua that got wierd burned through holes on the nks in 3-4 firings, same rifle will go 12+ firings on winchester brass.

 

[high right]

Even lapua is not impervious to flaws. Had a batch of 260 stamped lapua's that had nk thickness variations of .004 on the same piece of brass. Also had some 6 br brass that had really crooked trimmed nks from the box. Also had some burrs in the flash holes on 6 br brass. Anymore the only lapua brass i use is in my 4 6 br guns. Also had some 243 lapua that got wierd burned through holes on the nks in 3-4 firings, same rifle will go 12+ firings on winchester brass.

Same here! I have over 30 loads on my Lapua 6br brass. Pretty warm loads! My 260 had loose
pockets on the first fire. Sent some of those along with some new brass back to Lapua.
yep, they said they were loose! Same load in Remington brass had no issues. 8 firings on the
Remington with no issues. I think it's like anything else made, some of their products are
not as robust as others.I am trying a new lot number to see if it holds up better.

 

[M40_A1]

That seems kind of low... what kind of velocities are you getting?

These loads were developed to the same velocity at 60F (2585 fps, 210M, full length sized and 2.830" to ogive):
Federal Gold Medal Match 175 gr. (baseline standard for load development)
42.8 gr. RL15
41.2 gr. IMR 4064
42.6 gr. Varget
(lot variances notwithstanding)

Maybe it is just a bad lot. I'll give Lapua the benefit of the doubt and see what happens to the other lot (or lots, if I do buy more).

The Palma would be another option (thanks for that), but then I'd be back into load development..ugh! (and even more expensive brass)

I'd love to give Winchester a shot, but heard that after prep and sorting one might end up with only 60-70 percent that are uniform enough to batch together. And that is IF I were even able to find some.

 

[918v]

Do you anneal the necks after every firing? Maybe you over annealed and softened the whole case?

 

[Mad_Charlie]

These loads were developed to the same velocity at 60F (2585 fps, 210M, full length sized and 2.830" to ogive):
Federal Gold Medal Match 175 gr. (baseline standard for load development)
42.8 gr. RL15
41.2 gr. IMR 4064
42.6 gr. Varget
(lot variances notwithstanding)

Maybe it is just a bad lot. I'll give Lapua the benefit of the doubt and see what happens to the other lot (or lots, if I do buy more).

The Palma would be another option (thanks for that), but then I'd be back into load development..ugh! (and even more expensive brass)

I'd love to give Winchester a shot, but heard that after prep and sorting one might end up with only 60-70 percent that are uniform enough to batch together. And that is IF I were even able to find some.

That ain't hot, maybe Lapua isn't all it's cracked up to be, I just bought 100 cases and the weights varied quite a bit more than I expected.

Nice box though.

 

[FN in MT]

I doubt the bore is tight, though I've never had it checked. It is a standard stainless H&S .308 barrel with 3000 rounds down it and cleaned regularly. No usual pressure signs to speak of, like difficult extraction or ejector imprints.
Std. 175 gr. SMK
Charges weighed to the granule on a balance beam scale checked with check weights (that were also verified).

Would you say that the primer seating pressures in your 8th or 9th loadings feel consistent? (Assuming you are using a method with which you can "feel" the seating pressure)
Thanks.

My .308 brass is from three different lots, with a year between purchase of #1 and the last boxes. My case weights have been within 2.0 grains highest to lowest in the last box...only ones I checked. They averaged all at right about 173.5 grs.

I'm also using LAPUA for my 6.5x47 and same deal there no PP issues and my 6.5 loads are certainly hotter than my .308 loads.

In the .308 I've used nothing but Fed 210 and GMM 210M primers....inserted with a Sinclair hand priming tool. Which has a very good "Feel" when seating primers.

Could you have gotten a box of overly heavy cases, with less internal capacity? My Bare cases run about 173.5 grs on average.

Or unusually thick necks?

FN in MT


Let me add....My .308 is a Rem 700 LA with an old takeoff, but new, Rem 40-X Palma Match barrel I picked up 30+ years ago. Headspace is set to minimum and I FL resize each loading, I'm only bumping the shoulder back .001" when I FL size. So NOT working my brass much at all.

ALL of my brass is loaded with 43.1 of Varget and a 175 gr berger or 175 SMK ....my velocity runs about 2650 at 3400'.

 

[M40_A1]

Do you anneal the necks after every firing? Maybe you over annealed and softened the whole case?

I am just now starting to anneal at each load. This fourth loading got its first neck annealing. There was no firing between the anneal and the priming, so an annealed base would not have pockets widened through fire forming. At any rate, I doubt (my) annealing has anything to do with this, but judge for yourself...

propane, with tip of 1/4" long inner blue flame at shoulder/neck juncture
case rotated in deep socket
annealing time 3 seconds (moment 700 degree tempilaq went clear)
water quench
very consistent color (actually more a sheen) line 1/4-inch down the wall from the shoulder

Does anyone have diameter measurements for Wolf primers handy?
And, regarding Palma brass, do small rifle primers show up more, or less often in these crazy times than large rifle?

 

[918v]

Do what rich people do: Load new Lapua cases, leave them for me to pick up

 

[M40_A1]

Could you have gotten a box of overly heavy cases, with less internal capacity? My Bare cases run about 173.5 grs on average.

Or unusually thick necks?

Necks were initially turned to .015" wall thickness.

All my cases are already loaded, except for the two that I set aside when the primers could be pushed out. They weigh 169.8 and 170.1 grains. Keep in mind this is after their fourth loading, with turned necks (only at initial loading) and trimming to length each time which would account for some minor loss in brass weight. All the cases were weighed and sorted initially, so any weighing out of the norm would have been culled (there were none). Therefore, I have no reason to suspect these particular two cases are not representative of the rest. There were other cases in this last loading I had set aside as being suspect when the primers seated a bit easily, but they passed the "push test". (The primer seating resistances overall hardly felt uniform.)

Thanks for the help.

 

[M40_A1]

In the .308 I've used nothing but Fed 210 and GMM 210M primers....inserted with a Sinclair hand priming tool. Which has a very good "Feel" when seating primers.

So, after several reloadings would you say the primers still seat with consistent resistance, or do you feel some variation?

 

[FN in MT]

Frankly BOTH the 6.5 Lapuas and my .308's still seem to feel TIGHT.

My database of 8-9 firings is a lone 50 rd sampling though. But I have quite a few that have been fired 4-5 to 6 times...still tight.

WHY your's are stretched at 4 firings eludes me. This is quite a mystery.

 

[Charlie Papa]

Tula primers. Problem solved, problem staying solved.

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

Call R W Hart, they make a tool to tighten pockets.

 

[nuclear_shooter]

Call R W Hart, they make a tool to tighten pockets.

Can you give a little more info on this product? I assume if such a thing existed and worked well it would be the rage of the reloading forums.

 

[MitchAlsup]

I switched to Lapua with high expectations, after I was tired of loose primers in Federal brass after 3 or 4 reloads. Now I am finding loose primers in my Lapua on my 4th reload, though I often hear of guys getting a brass life of up to 20 loadings.

Load is not hot:

Any load that loosens up primer pockets in 4 reload cycles is HOT. At this point we just don't know why it is HOT.

 

[M40_A1]

Any load that loosens up primer pockets in 4 reload cycles is HOT. At this point we just don't know why it is HOT.

Not necessarily true. Federal brass is notorious for losing primers around the 3rd or 4th loadings with normal loads.

Can you give a little more info on this product? I assume if such a thing existed and worked well it would be the rage of the reloading forums.

It does exist! I searched it out for myself and there really is such an animal. The reviews on it are pretty mixed, six of one, half dozen the other. Most of the negative reviews were more out of frustration with the softness of the steel used in the tool, rather than the results of using the tool. It does seem to work for as long as the tool lasts.

Wow, it seems I have more options than I realized. I had already reluctantly considered switching to Lapua Palma brass, but I could also...

assume this is just a bad lot, use some other lots and see what happens
switch to Wolf/Tula primers (if I can find them- I hear they are fine for accuracy, but are the consistent enough to maintain that accuracy out to 1k yds?)
set the loose cases aside and use this Hart case saver to get a few more loadings out of them

Thanks for the input! I've learned some things here.

 

[6brshooter]

There's a bunch of guys shooting 6 creed, trying to duplicate243 performance that trash pockets in 2 firings. Try telling them their load is too hot, most will say so and so runs them that fast. The charge weight and speed don't indicate a hot load, my bet is bad lot of brass.

 

[Charlie Papa]

I've shot Tula, BR2, and FGM primers side-by-side, no difference in accuracy at any range. I've got a whole bunch of Winchester 7-08 brass necked down to 260 on its 10th firing using Tulas, and they're still going strong!. BR2s just fall out of most of them.

 

[JByrd]

(;

 

[Tempest 455]

Same problem w/ Lapua brass here recently. Going on 4th re-loading and pockets getting loose. Not using a hot load. I don't do anything to the pockets. Round are not seated jammed, in fact .025" jump.

I think they had some bad lots.

Willing to try the Palma brass. Anyone know if there is a velocity change w/ the smaller primer?

 

[steve123]

M40,

How much neck expansion do you have going on? Maybe a tight bore barrel or tighter twist on the barrel. Might be a bad batch of brass.

Got any other brands laying around? You could take the reloading press out and shoot the same piece of brass til it fails as a experiment.

If you end up switching to the palma brass it'd be good idea to start with CCI450 or Rem 7-1/2 primers.

 

[M40_A1]

M40,

How much neck expansion do you have going on? Maybe a tight bore barrel or tighter twist on the barrel. Might be a bad batch of brass.

.001-.0015" neck tension, 1:12 twist.

But, hey! Nothing to do with the primer pocket issue, but in getting some measurements I just learned that the brass has been moving around more than I realized. While the turned necks stayed consistent in thickness for the first couple loadings, at this fourth resizing I find the necks are now uneven. What started as an even .015" turn has become thicker than that on some sides of the neck, and thinner on other sides. I thought neck turning was a one time thing, with adjusting the neck sizer bushings as the neck walls got THINNER. Now I've learned there comes a time to re-turn the necks.

 

[steve123]

.001-.0015" neck tension, 1:12 twist.

But, hey! Nothing to do with the primer pocket issue, but in getting some measurements I just learned that the brass has been moving around more than I realized. While the turned necks stayed consistent in thickness for the first couple loadings, at this fourth resizing I find the necks are now uneven. What started as an even .015" turn has become thicker than that on some sides of the neck, and thinner on other sides. I thought neck turning was a one time thing, with adjusting the neck sizer bushings as the neck walls got THINNER. Now I've learned there comes a time to re-turn the necks.

I mean what is the measurement of a loaded round vs a fired round. The only reason I'm asking is if you happen to have "for example", a .339 chamber neck and a .3385" neck on a loaded round or only .0005" neck expansion the pressures will skyrocket.

In my neck turn - tight neck match chambers I run .002-.003 neck expansion. I've turned my 6x47L brass twice as well, once when I first bought it 7 years ago and again 3 years ago. I took .001" the second time so now the neck expansion is .0025".

 

[M40_A1]

I mean what is the measurement of a loaded round vs a fired round.

I see. I'm all out of fired brass at the moment, and won't have any in stock until tomorrow at the earliest. LOL!

 

[M40_A1]

I mean what is the measurement of a loaded round vs a fired round.

O.K. This just in....unfired, .338"....fired, .344-.345"

 

[rockn30809]

Considering how behind the manufacturers are on ammo components its surprising we're not seeing problems like this more often. They are adding shifts and running ragged to try and catch up on orders. I would lean to it being a bad lot of brass. Like others on here, I've run Lapua brass plenty warm and never lost a primer pocket that quick. I would give Lapua a call with the lot number and see what they have to say.

 

[steve123]

O.K. This just in....unfired, .338"....fired, .344-.345"

At this point I'd call Lapua and complain.

 

[Tempest 455]

Would be interested in the lot#. Here is mine that had loose primer pockets after 3 loadings.

 

[M40_A1]

Would be interested in the lot#. Here is mine that had loose primer pockets after 3 loadings.

OH, NO! I have lot P00684403 on its first loading! I hope they don't suffer the same problem The lot I'm currently running with loosened pockets is P00612002. I wonder how many are in a "lot". Does a lot span a few thousand? Or, many thousands over the course of a couple weeks or a month?

 

[bruddah]

Would be interested in the lot#. Here is mine that had loose primer pockets after 3 loadings.

Hmm.... I've also got 200 rounds from that lot #.

Did Lapua replace or refund you on those?

 

[Tempest 455]

Hmm.... I've also got 200 rounds from that lot #.

Did Lapua replace or refund you on those?

I have not asked them. Just noticed this problem after the last match.

 

[Tempest 455]

They replied to E-mail on lot # and that was the last I heard from them. Just bought another lot yesterday. Hopefully it's better than the last.