The age of the SASS?

[epaultmbt]

As of late it seems the gas guns are edging out ahead of their bolt counterparts. I'm referring to the success some very talented shooters have had at well respected tactical competition with semi auto rifles.
I'm of the belief that with current technology today's SASS are as accurate as their bolt action brethren. The advantage of the bolt is you can reliably chamber a magnum cartridge.
Is the bolt gun obsolete, or is this stage/scenario design?

 

[bm11]

Re: The age of the SASS?

Interesting topic! There are a growing number of people who believe that now that you can get .5-.75 moa out of a gas gun, that the place for the bolt rifle is really in the .300 win mag and .338 lapua. The military seems to be moving in that direction as well.

I personally shoot my bolt rifle better with more confidence, but perhaps that will change with enough practice with my gas rifle.

I really enjoy shooting a bolt.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: The age of the SASS?

IMHO the SASS has the advantage of rapid firepower if needed, but the bolt has the sleeker "less things to get snagged on" and "less things that can go wrong" advantage.

i would have to believe bolt's advantage in that arena will keep it around for a long, long, time.

no doubt the gas guns have other certain advantages, but the rock solid platform of a bolt can't be denied.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: The age of the SASS?

how do this go..........fear the man with one gun....for he know how to use it.....

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: The age of the SASS?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I personally shoot my -<span style="font-style: italic">insert whatever here</span>- better with more confidence, </div></div>

This is a HUGE key I've found, regardless of the actual tool being debated, and is highly personal.

 

[bm11]

Re: The age of the SASS?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I personally shoot my -<span style="font-style: italic">insert whatever here</span>- better with more confidence, </div></div>

This is a HUGE key I've found, regardless of the actual tool being debated, and is highly personal. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how do this go..........fear the man with one gun....for he know how to use it..... </div></div>
Probably the reason I am so good with my AW is the 2200 rounds through it in the last 6 months, plus the 10k dry fires...

 

[xNF_9]

Re: The age of the SASS?

The bolt action rifle is more accurate then the semi even to this day. I don't see how a semi auto can become more accurate then a bolt, but I can be proved wrong.

 

[epaultmbt]

Re: The age of the SASS?

Given that competitors can chose any rifle and caliber they want to compete with is it stage design and scoring at competition's that drive them to use a semi?

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: The age of the SASS?

Now taking an inexperienced shooter and teaching thema new system? only time will tell which platform survivesm but I think there will always be room for both.

Look at an analogy using heavy equipment motor graders. The controls pictured run the same machine essentially:
Those that learned this can do a great job building roads-

New kids coming into heavy equipment like the new controls-

Its hard for the former to pick up the latter, but once the latter is ingrained it may be better, only time will tell........

 

[Swan]

Re: The age of the SASS?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: epaultmbt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As of late it seems the gas guns are edging out ahead of their bolt counterparts. I'm referring to the success some very talented shooters have had at well respected tactical competition with semi auto rifles.
I'm of the belief that with current technology today's SASS are as accurate as their bolt action brethren. The advantage of the bolt is you can reliably chamber a magnum cartridge.
Is the bolt gun obsolete, or is this stage/scenario design?

</div></div>

When we consistently start seeing gas guns in the top 5, ok, maybe there is something to it. When we start seeing gas guns in the top 3, impressive. When we start seeing gas guns winning matches... oh wait, never mind, not gonna happen.

 

[bm11]

Re: The age of the SASS?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: (pink)MiST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The bolt action rifle is more accurate then the semi even to this day. I don't see how a semi auto can become more accurate then a bolt, but I can be proved wrong. </div></div>I don't think the semi will replace the bolt in benchrest anytime soon, which is the test of ultimate accuracy. However, we are talking battlefield conditions here, and the difference between a 3/8 moa rifle and a 3/4 moa rifle when engaging man size targets at 800m at in, the time saved for a follow up shot vs the group size the rifle will attain, the follow up shot speed is more important.

Especially considering no one is shooting tailored handloads on the battlefield and it is hits that win, not group size.

 

[223man]

Re: The age of the SASS?

This is my .02 cents, And don't get me wrong I am not slamming bolt guns, I grew up with them, it is the first gun I learned to shoot and I have one in 17 hmr for a trainer. I think that gas guns are a little better than bolt guns as far as fire power, it is cheaper to make a gas gun accurate as apposed to all the things you have to do to a bolt gun. Fore example, all you need is a good trigger and free float a good barrel to make a gas gun accurate. With the bolt gun you have to do the same but also there is bedding and what ever else. Also lets look at the flexibility of both. Again this is my point of view.

 

[xNF_9]

Re: The age of the SASS?

BM11 I understand what you're saying. The OP was talking about that the semi was becoming as accurate as the bolt. I don't see how this is happening. When you talk about .5 bolt vs .75 semi on the battlefield it's not a huge deal until you're really trying to reach out and poke someone. I'd take a semi on the battlefield if you talk about that, but if we are talking shooting comps/groups the bolt wins most of the time.

 

[bm11]

Re: The age of the SASS?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: (pink)MiST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BM11 I understand what you're saying. The OP was talking about that the semi was becoming as accurate as the bolt. I don't see how this is happening. When you talk about .5 bolt vs .75 semi on the battlefield it's not a huge deal until you're really trying to reach out and poke someone. I'd take a semi on the battlefield if you talk about that, but if we are talking shooting comps/groups the bolt wins most of the time. </div></div>I completely agree. I don't think a GOOD semi is as accurate as a GOOD bolt. I just think that in a MILITARY situation, the difference doesn't matter. So I am agreeing with you!

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: The age of the SASS?

i like sobrbiker's illustration with the controls analogy, it's sort of the same thing between those rice burners and musclecars -

the rice burners are unbeatable on the turns

the musclecars are pure power that i wouldn't want to make a turn in

guess it depends on what road you take and what the competition is using!

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: The age of the SASS?

bm11 is right on as far as iherent accuracy of the system.

9 times out of ten a $300 Stevens 308 boltgun will shoot factory match 308 ammo as well as the BEST 308 semi's costing ten times as much.

 

[epaultmbt]

Re: The age of the SASS?

I'm referring to tactical competition, not benchrest or bullseye. As a 3gunner I understand how much stage design and scoring can drive equipment. I wonder if the forum in which these rifles are being tested are looking more like a DMR match or a long 3gun rifle stage. Perhaps target past 1200m, tighter short range shots, and only 2 rounds fired on a stage. If 30% of the overall score is represented in run and gun then is it still important to ace unknown distance?

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: The age of the SASS?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
When we consistently start seeing gas guns in the top 5, ok, maybe there is something to it. When we start seeing gas guns in the top 3, impressive. When we start seeing gas guns winning matches... oh wait, never mind, not gonna happen.
</div></div>

Tony Gimmelie (Nomad), 2010 Oregon State Sniper Challenge, 1st Place POF gasgun.

I'm running my POF as often as my boltgun and am doing comparable in matches...

 

[Swan]

Re: The age of the SASS?

"consistently" was what I stated.


I agree, they have gotten much better. But doubt hordes of shooters will ever be making the switch.

 

[bm11]

Re: The age of the SASS?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
When we consistently start seeing gas guns in the top 5, ok, maybe there is something to it. When we start seeing gas guns in the top 3, impressive. When we start seeing gas guns winning matches... oh wait, never mind, not gonna happen.
</div></div>

Tony Gimmelie, 2010 Oregon State Sniper Challenge, 1st Place POF gasgun. </div></div>SFC Edward Homeyer and SFC Chance Giannelli, 1st place overall at the 2010 Fort Benning International Sniper Competition, shooting OBRs. 3rd place also shooting OBRs.

 

[Swan]

Re: The age of the SASS?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
When we consistently start seeing gas guns in the top 5, ok, maybe there is something to it. When we start seeing gas guns in the top 3, impressive. When we start seeing gas guns winning matches... oh wait, never mind, not gonna happen.
</div></div>

Tony Gimmelie, 2010 Oregon State Sniper Challenge, 1st Place POF gasgun. </div></div>SFC Edward Homeyer and SFC Chance Giannelli, 1st place overall at the 2010 Fort Benning International Sniper Competition, shooting OBRs. 3rd place also shooting OBRs. </div></div>

I knew someone would bring that comp up. I wonder what the results would've been if civilian shooters were allowed to compete?

Just kidding. Kind of.

 

[TDECK]

Re: The age of the SASS?

I have always had better reliability with my bolt guns than my semi auto rifles. Same for pump shotguns vs semi auto shot guns. Bolt rifles and pump shotguns are flat out less finicky about what they will digest. This is priceless.

 

[JelloStorm]

Re: The age of the SASS?

I'm not LEO / MIL, so some may not agree with my perception, however in an urban combat situation I'll take a SASS.

In a more open environment, such as Afghanistan, I'd hope someone would hand me a bolt gun. Especially a 338 AI.

Don't the Canadian snipers use a .338 Timberwolf??

 

[JFComfort]

Re: The age of the SASS?

A consistently accurate gas gun is very nice to have but I prefer bolt guns. Right now in my very limited competition experience bolt guns win the vast majority of the time. I have a friend who prefers gas guns and he can shoot very impressively with his, so I don't doubt their potential.

 

[praharin]

Re: The age of the SASS?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TDECK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have always had better reliability with my bolt guns than my semi auto rifles. Same for pump shotguns vs semi auto shot guns. Bolt rifles and pump shotguns are flat out less finicky about what they will digest. This is priceless. </div></div>

If that's the case, why not go all the way back back to a single action only cartridge firing revolver and a double rifles and SxS shotguns.

For the sake of reliability, of course.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: The age of the SASS?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"consistently" was what I stated.


I agree, they have gotten much better. But doubt hordes of shooters will ever be making the switch. </div></div>

Oh, that's right -you live where you can't have them

Hordes won't be making the switch as most of the competitive shooters have in excess of $5K in their rifles. I too doubt that semi's will ever "take over" practical precision shooting, but I think they will gain a large marketshare (well, maybe not in Pelosiland).

I agree on the "kind of"......that'd be interesting to see.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: The age of the SASS?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not LEO / MIL, so some may not agree with my perception, however in an urban combat situation I'll take a SASS.

In a more open environment, such as Afghanistan, I'd hope someone would hand me a bolt gun. Especially a 338 AI.

Don't the Canadian snipers use a .338 Timberwolf?? </div></div>

So if you aren't LE/mil, just where do you forsee this urban combat situation popping up in your day to day?

 

[shane45]

Re: The age of the SASS?

In terms of active duty, I think that in country snipers giving the sit rep of why they prefer the semi sums it up nicely. In terms of competition, just a guess on my part but Im betting that most of the field is bolt guns so the fact that semi's are rising to the top, outnumbered means something to me. Now I know this is counter intuitive but for WHATEVER reason, I seem to shoot gas guns better than bolt guns... All my wall hanger groups (I dont really do that) are from my gas guns. The rifles I have owned are almost all GAPS/AI's/DTA etc etc, but my absolutely best groups are from a GAP AR10 and an OBR (which incidentally wasnt mine). Both of these were groups where under .4. So for me it seems the gas guns are more accurate in MY hands. Im sure measured mechanical accuracy would say different but once you hover around .5 ...well I think its the other variables that are going to get me, not the rifle.

 

[fdkay]

Re: The age of the SASS?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
When we consistently start seeing gas guns in the top 5, ok, maybe there is something to it. When we start seeing gas guns in the top 3, impressive. When we start seeing gas guns winning matches... oh wait, never mind, not gonna happen.
</div></div>

Tony Gimmelie, 2010 Oregon State Sniper Challenge, 1st Place POF gasgun. </div></div>SFC Edward Homeyer and SFC Chance Giannelli, 1st place overall at the 2010 Fort Benning International Sniper Competition, shooting OBRs. 3rd place also shooting OBRs. </div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">I knew someone would bring that comp up. I wonder what the results would've been if civilian shooters were allowed to compete?</span>Just kidding. Kind of.

</div></div>

Me thinks many of the civilian shooters would have difficulty with the physical requirements.
They ran those guys VERY hard.

 

[Swan]

Re: The age of the SASS?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"consistently" was what I stated.


I agree, they have gotten much better. But doubt hordes of shooters will ever be making the switch. </div></div>

Oh, that's right -you live where you can't have them

Hordes won't be making the switch as most of the competitive shooters have in excess of $5K in their rifles. I too doubt that semi's will ever "take over" practical precision shooting, but I think they will gain a large marketshare (well, maybe not in Pelosiland).

I agree on the "kind of"......that'd be interesting to see. </div></div>

Actually, I just moved here 4 months ago from Vegas (10yrs)... where every asshole has a gasgun that shoots like shit.

But I am glad to see you agree on one point.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: The age of the SASS?

It would come down to logistics for me. I have supreme confidence in my SASS but if I were in a situation without any logistical support I'd lean towords a bolt gun purely for simplicity sake. All things being equal...without parts support, unlimited ammo supply, cleaning gear etc, a bolt gun will likely hold up longer than a gas gun and you'd be forced to choose your shots wisely. Sometimes the best use of a weapon is to avoid having to fire it.

The real answer to this question lies in the PSR submissions...Barrett and others have submitted bolt guns.

 

[shane45]

Re: The age of the SASS?

I dont think the PSR submissions is an indication of anything in regards to semi vs bolt. Its an indication of magnum vs non magnum. IIRC 300wm/338lm is required.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: The age of the SASS?

I think it means more than what's on the surface considering that the SASS is a bandaid. Multi-role platforms are likely the future and the SASS has limitations just like the M14 did.

 

[shane45]

Re: The age of the SASS?

"I think it means more than what's on the surface considering that the SASS is a bandaid."

Im sorry, Im not tracking your logic. Bandaid to what? Firearms is like a bag of golf clubs. You need to pull the right one out of the bag for the task at hand. The SASS fills the role better in the current theater of operations in the DMR role. So how is this a band aid? A band aid would imply a stop gap solution awaiting a proper one. What would be better? A magnum equally would seem to fit the needs better in current theater for Sniper operations. Another bandaid? To me it simply seems like prudent choices...

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: The age of the SASS?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shane45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im sorry, Im not tracking your logic. Bandaid to what? Firearms is like a bag of golf clubs. You need to pull the right one out of the bag for the task at hand. The SASS fills the role better in the current theater of operations in the DMR role. So how is this a band aid? A band aid would imply a stop gap solution awaiting a proper one. What would be better? A magnum equally would seem to fit the needs better in current theater for Sniper operations. Another bandaid? To me it simply seems like prudent choices... </div></div>

Just a prediction based on my experience. Not to get into a whole thing over it but its simple economics. We're broke, amd having to support multiple platforms of similar design with limited parts interchangability isn't sustainable. Countless military systems have been replaced for similar reasons. Will it happen tomorrow? Unlikely but it <span style="font-style: italic">will </span>eventually happen. I'm not arguing that the SASS doesn't fill its role well but its role is narrow. Maybe less narrow than its predecessors but still narrower than what's possible. Right now the SASS is a prudent choice...not arguing that.

 

[shane45]

Re: The age of the SASS?

If SOCOM is broke, I dont think anyone told them... LOL. Im not looking for the great debate, only trying to understand your position. If you are refering to the M14 as the similer system, well I suppose but it seems to me these decisions are all already made and in the works. From what I understand the M14 is done.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: The age of the SASS?

I shoot my bolt .308's better than my AR10. I shoot both well enough to solve a tactical problem. I just don't shoot "bragging" groups with the AR10.

I am not confident enough with the AR10 to take it to a match where there is money on the line. I have shot it in local matches and done just fine.

In matches where you are shooting from strange positions (sideways, upside down, wierd barricades, etc.) the gas gun can offer a great advantage since you don't have to juggle the bolt. You just need to reacquire your sight picture and press. Working a bolt gun with the port up can sometimes be interesting.

The tactical matches I have been at have not had time requirements tight enough to favor the gas gun. If you know what you are doing you can run a bolt fairly quick. Magazine systems nullify that gas gun advantage.

In the military side of the house the gas gun has numerous advantages in urban sniping. Those advantages are greatly reduced in the mountains. While many comment on the reliability of the gas guns, this is frequently based on civilian owned platforms and not military rifles.

If I can improve my ability to drive my AR10 then I wouldn't have a problem competing with it. The only place it's lacking in a tactical competition is the KYL stages where razors edge accuracy translates to points. These stages are one of the reasons I upgraded to the AI this year.

Also remember you cannot compare a AR15 and a large pattern AR. They shoot very differently.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: The age of the SASS?

I thought your address was odd.....now get out and vote!!

 

[Bunnyack]

Re: The age of the SASS?

at short range, a semi can get the same results as a bolt action. At long range, the fact that gas guns can not have fully free floating barrels gives them a disadvantage. Thats just the way it is. I would like to see a M1A go up against a F-class gun. No chance.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: The age of the SASS?

.....i remember a published multiple nationally ranked shooter telling a group of tactical shooters in a well known kitchen area of this particular South texas bunk house....that HE had won a national championship with a gasser.......said it took three times the effort to drive the gun......and/but he would not do it again

sage'd words

 

[SFree]

Re: The age of the SASS?

That's why the T2k was born. The adjustability and comfort of the AR platform with the consistancy of the bolt gun...

"Sage advice"

 

[JelloStorm]

Re: The age of the SASS?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not LEO / MIL, so some may not agree with my perception, however in an urban combat situation I'll take a SASS.

In a more open environment, such as Afghanistan, I'd hope someone would hand me a bolt gun. Especially a 338 AI.

Don't the Canadian snipers use a .338 Timberwolf?? </div></div>

So if you aren't LE/mil, just where do you forsee this urban combat situation popping up in your day to day? </div></div>

I'm sure it never would, but if Western civilization ever fell..........