The Archer and the Arrow - A Discussion

[steve123]

Rico's quote...My personal thought is that if you can afford the best... then get the best. I've lived my life by that credo and there have been plenty of times when I COULDN'T afford the best. In relating my personal POV to the marksmanship scene; not everyone can afford a 40X, Annie, etc... does this mean that the "Archer" can't hone his skill? In my belief - YES they can. My thought is that every rifle has a level of capability. If your rifle shoots 2-3 MOA then that is just fine as long as it is consistently shooting that 2-3 MOA. You can still derive a level of deviation that would be a result of the shooter. Is this the optimum way? Of course not... but it CAN work.

In my humble experience, NOTHING can overcome the benefits that come from trigger time.


There's lot's of things I can think of to say but where to start???...

How about amount of money spent in relation to accuracy for both ammo and gun. Since this is the Snipers Hide and our 22's would be mostly tactical trainers to be used in 22 tactical matches what if we start there.

Often in tactical matches a percentage of the shooting will be positional- offhand, kneeling and sitting or done from compromised positions like off barricades etc. Usually there is distance involved which can be considered long range for a 22, sometimes out to 250Y or so. In most cases there are time constraints. In all of these scenarios there is some wind involved as well. These "stressor's" for lack of a better word make a super accurate rifle/ammo(usually expensive) somewhat less important. I say less important because a guy who is a good shot in the wind and in different positions or shooting off of obstacles, "depending on how many stressor's the particular COF has that day", will likely come out on top. Of course if that days match happens to be mostly prone off the bipod then the scales will usually tip towards a good shooter with a very accurate rifle/ammo combo. Would you agree?

Since we're talking rimfires here, what could be considered a minimum accuracy requirement to remain competitive? I believe 1.5 moa to be acceptable for the minimum to still be competitive in a 22 tactical match. That's 5 shots into approx .77" at 50Y, 1.6" at 100Y and 3.2" at 200Y . Considering all the "stressor's" previously mentioned, what is your opinion on the minimum accuracy required for a 22 to be competitive in a 22 tactical match? Maybe even give examples supporting your opinion.

Back to the rifle and ammo. I've owned a fair share of different 22's, many of the common ones we see in the rimfire forum. Most of these were sub $500 rifles and in stock form. Most of the bolt rifles were capable of 1.5 MOA with medium priced ammo like Wolf, SK, CCI Green tag, Eley club, Federal match, etc. My Ruger 10-22 race rifle qualifies for this accuracy requirement at 1.2 MOA. I'm confident it has the potential to win our local match.

Priorities... those rimfires mentioned. My first firearm was a Savage/Anschutz 141M 22 magnum, given to me on my 14th Birthday by my Dad, loved that rifle! Since then I've bought and sold a half a dozen Anschutz 64's in various sporter and match configurations. Some were expensive and some weren't but they all were more accurate than 1.5 MOA. About 7 years ago I bought a super nice Savage/Anschutz 141 22lr for $425, it shot excellent, later sold it for about $600. Then bought a Winchester 52B for $800 which was a very nice rifle in many respects, eventually trading it for a Anshutz 64 MPR valued slightly higher at $900, it shot even better, sold it at zero financial loss. Now own a Anschutz 1827F biathlon rifle, I consider it the Apex of what I want out of a 22 so I'm keeping that Jewel. The point I'm trying to make is that my personal evolution, after 35 years, regarding 22's, was to try out different brands and models to eventually upgrade till I was satisfied, it took a while but I'm finally there. All that being said the $425 S/A 141 fed with Wolf MT was accurate enough to win our match with.

 

[MarshallDodge]

I am a huge proponent of making sure the Indian can perform as well as the Arrow before throwing money at better arrows.

That being said, there are some really good arrows and it helps to give the Indian confidence in his equipment. Last year I shot a 22 match with my CZ 455. There were several Savages, a 10/22, and the match director had an Anschutz. The director showed two newbies how to run his Anschutz and let them shoot it in the match. Guess who came in 1, 2, and 3? The match director and the two newbies. I could have shot better but still don't think I would have touched their scores.

Last month I took a pistol class and there were a couple tough drills that the instructor put us through. Of the five students, there were HK, Glock, M&P, and several high end 1911 pistols. I can appreciate a beautifully built 1911 but the guys that were shooting them really struggled on the tough stuff. They must have thought that a gun with Wilson on the slide would have kept them competitive.

 

[clmayfield]

jbell, how many RIMFIRE rifles are out there that REALLY shoot "MOA-ish?" I would venture to say that MAYBE 10% (you included) of the participating members of the Rimfire section own such a beast.

It is very sad that the Remington 40X and Winchester 52D are out of production. We are in an age where rimfire ammo has never been better, but the quality of production rifles has fallen off. I wonder what a 40X would cost if it were being manufactured today... $750? The CZ 452's are nice, but if you want to step it up from there, your only option is a full custom or a used 40X or Win 52D, both of which go for over $1,000.

 

[PlinkIt]

Great read this far, and brought out several subject matter experts..

Now I will add a rookies POV on archer vs arrow..

I enjoy learning what the bow does as is, then change something.. Maybe for the better.. Maybe for the worst. I may do more harm than good in my unintelligent attempts at making the rifle better.. But I will see what shows improvement and what shows back peddling. Then I have a chance to see how much my attitude about these things can change my accuracy.. Or perhaps I learn that I made a change that should improve but it doesn't fit me so I'm worse off.. It all seems to be about observation..

How can an archer with a recurve shoot better than a crossbow?.. It happens..

Still seems to me that the person with the inferior equipment will observe harder to try and understand where the short comings are.. The over confident will get lazy since they have THE RIFLE.. I think the archer matters far more than the bow ever will..

If not so.. Why is it I shoot better groups when I adjust my scope till I can't see the group?.. It stops me from being distracted.. It let's me do what I should do without analyzing between shots.. So even with the same archer and arrow there can be improvements if you can manage them.. And none of us will ever do it all right every day.. So the archer seems to be the questionable party to me

 

[steve123]

I am a huge proponent of making sure the Indian can perform as well as the Arrow before throwing money at better arrows.

That being said, there are some really good arrows and it helps to give the Indian confidence in his equipment. Last year I shot a 22 match with my CZ 455. There were several Savages, a 10/22, and the match director had an Anschutz. The director showed two newbies how to run his Anschutz and let them shoot it in the match. Guess who came in 1, 2, and 3? The match director and the two newbies. I could have shot better but still don't think I would have touched their scores.

Last month I took a pistol class and there were a couple tough drills that the instructor put us through. Of the five students, there were HK, Glock, M&P, and several high end 1911 pistols. I can appreciate a beautifully built 1911 but the guys that were shooting them really struggled on the tough stuff. They must have thought that a gun with Wilson on the slide would have kept them competitive.

Just out of curiosity what ammo were you using and what would you rate the MOA out of your CZ with that ammo?

How about other factors like not having your drops correct or anything else you can think of which contributed your scores vs theirs?

 

[yoteman]

we all know the arrow has to be great, right.

but how about the archer
last TSC match, the COF highest you can score is a hard 72 points
by hard i mean 4 stages from 56yd to 211 yd, with tricky winds.
now the record has stood at 63 for a long time, by a great shooter an a laser MPR
last match Blitz stepped up an shot a 66, (damm outstanding)
with a annie/leupold combo, 1809 Jr that is lights out.

But let me preach on up stepped R.Brown, with an old single shot, Martini.
that shoots ok most of the time,
well record was broken 2 times that day, Brown shot a unbeliveable score of 68
should have been a 70(missed 2, single point targets, biggest on stage 4)
now Mr Brown is a champion small bore shooter, an has been playing with the ol Martini for a few years
we call his rifle Pawpaw, well because its old as drit,
my Hat is off to both of these gents, GREAT SHOOTING

now what did it, the archer, or the arrow, hum ,
do care, right now, just really enjoyed the show these 2 marksmen displayed that match

i think both have to be well tuned for that type of shooting to take place
(shooter/rifle)
so Rico i say both the archer an the arrow.
dont think what i saw could have happen if either one (shooter/rifle) was off.

 

[steve123]

we all know the arrow has to be great, right.

but how about the archer
last TSC match, the COF highest you can score is a hard 72 points
by hard i mean 4 stages from 56yd to 211 yd, with tricky winds.
now the record has stood at 61 for a long time, by a great shooter an a laser MPR
last match Blitz stepped up an shot a 66, (damm outstanding)
with a annie/leupold combo, 1809 Jr that is lights out.

But let me preach on up stepped R.Brown, with an old single shot, Martini.
that shoots ok most of the time,
well record was broken 2 times that day, Brown shot a unbeliveable score of 68
should have been a 70(missed 2, single point targets, biggest on stage 4)
now Mr Brown is a champion small bore shooter, an has been playing with the ol Martini for a few years
we call his rifle Pawpaw, well because its old as drit,
my Hat is off to both of these gents, GREAT SHOOTING

now what did it, the archer, or the arrow, hum ,
do care, right now, just really enjoyed the show these 2 marksmen displayed that match

i think both have to be well tuned for that type of shooting to take place
(shooter/rifle)
so Rico i say both the archer an the arrow.
dont think what i saw could have happen if either one (shooter/rifle) was off.

Hey Yote,

How much of a percentage of positional or obstacles do you guys shoot off of at your match, average distance, moa size of steel or general difficulty level?

 

[MarshallDodge]

Just out of curiosity what ammo were you using and what would you rate the MOA out of your CZ with that ammo?

How about other factors like not having your drops correct or anything else you can think of which contributed your scores vs theirs?

I was using Lapua SK Standard and have shot under 1/2" at 50 yards multiple times with it. With Federal Bulk it will shoot under an inch at that distance.

At the match, my drops were good until I got to 100 and I was off by quite a bit. Need to work on that more...definitely an archer issue. I cleaned the 25 yard target but things started to fall apart at 50.

 

[steve123]

I was using Lapua SK Standard and have shot under 1/2" at 50 yards multiple times with it. With Federal Bulk it will shoot under an inch at that distance.

At the match, my drops were good until I got to 100 and I was off by quite a bit. Need to work on that more...definitely an archer issue. I cleaned the 25 yard target but things started to fall apart at 50.

Thanks for replying.

Yep, having your dope down makes a big difference at distance. Getting the BC, velocity and come ups to match takes a little bit of trial and error but in one outing you can get it all lining up pretty good.

Looks like your rifle is accurate enough for most precision 22 matches. This is why I'm asking so I can get a idea what size MOA targets different clubs are using, what distances are the average, how much positional is done or how much shooting is off of obstacles.

Did you ever go back to that match?

 

[MarshallDodge]

.....

Did you ever go back to that match?

No. The match is held about six hours away and I am only in that area once or twice a year.

 

[yoteman]

Hey Yote,

How much of a percentage of positional or obstacles do you guys shoot off of at your match, average distance, moa size of steel or general difficulty level?

steve check out you tube, conover 22 TSC

not to jack rico thread but we se both the archer/arrow at this match,
an what can happen very fast, if either is not up to par

we shoot 57yd,112yd,163yd,210yd, why the funky dis, well thats what we have to work with.
targets are all steel, sizeed from 1.5" to 8.5" with some hostage style, partically blocked,or hidden targets
we shoot from many different props, stair step wall, dog house, over watch,(4x8 on a 45deg roof top type)
over a 8x8 cross tie (no bipod), table top, with very limited view hole,
standing free hand, 90deg prone, spool old wire spool shot from the middle round,
no rear bags

Maybe Va gentelman or apache will chim in with more details an pictures
but we do have some video on you tube

still i think now after seeing 1st hand many matches, that it takes both the rifle an the shooter,
to be in the top 5

 

[steve123]

steve check out you tube, conover 22 TSC

not to jack rico thread but we se both the archer/arrow at this match,
an what can happen very fast, if either is not up to par

we shoot 57yd,112yd,163yd,210yd, why the funky dis, well thats what we have to work with.
targets are all steel, sizeed from 1.5" to 8.5" with some hostage style, partically blocked,or hidden targets
we shoot from many different props, stair step wall, dog house, over watch,(4x8 on a 45deg roof top type)
over a 8x8 cross tie (no bipod), table top, with very limited view hole,
standing free hand, 90deg prone, spool old wire spool shot from the middle round,
no rear bags

Maybe Va gentelman or apache will chim in with more details an pictures
but we do have some video on you tube

still i think now after seeing 1st hand many matches, that it takes both the rifle an the shooter,
to be in the top 5

So do you think 60% of the match is shot prone off the bipod, little more or a little less? Looks like a fun match BTW!

I can't wait till we get our 300Y range built here where I live!!! Hopefully next year. Get's a little boring being restricted to 100Y for us.

Thanks

 

[yoteman]

last match we only used bipod on spool, an overwatch, other two stages, stair step no bipod could be used
8x8 crosstie no bipod could be used, most be folded
Those videos on you tube are old, that was back when it was easy, but lo the mad doctor, has come up with some tuff stages,(he goes to Woody's DMM match, an copies a lot of there stage props, an they are fun but takes you out of your comfort zone, like we say this is not a bench rest match, never will be

/we only shot 1 stage prone 156yd no bipod no rear rest, over cross tie,(for me the hardes stage we shot that day)

 

[steve123]

last match we only used bipod on spool, an overwatch, other two stages, stair step no bipod could be used
8x8 crosstie no bipod could be used, most be folded
Those videos on you tube are old, that was back when it was easy, but lo the mad doctor, has come up with some tuff stages,(he goes to Woody's DMM match, an copies a lot of there stage props, an they are fun but takes you out of your comfort zone, like we say this is not a bench rest match, never will be

/we only shot 1 stage prone 156yd no bipod no rear rest, over cross tie,(for me the hardes stage we shot that day)

Okay, thanks. That gives me some more info to chew on.

Any other MD's or participants that care to comment on the percentage of their clubs shooting other than off the bipod???

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Our most recent FV250 match was the Darkeagle Memorial Match this past Saturday. It is the only FV250 match on our schedule that mandates FT/R, although Opens are welcome to shoot alongside.

Otherwise we shoot at least one, usually two FV250 Matches per month basically between April and Snow Flies, which is certain in November, and possible earlier. Rifles and support, and most of the rules, conform to normal FT/R and Open, with the addition that benches are allowed for competitors with significant physical issues. The key departures from NRA procedure are the use of targets of equivalent MOA scoring ring size but a 5/V scoring system, and the use of benches as mentioned above.

Variations on these themes are appearing at a fair number of neighboring clubs. One classifies all bench shooters as Open, and all prone as T/R. Another requires prone only.

They are all fun, many shooters appear at several venues in a given month; and there are days when the only thing I can seem to manage to achieve is showing up on time. This stuff is not cutthroat competition, it is a shared enjoyment with friends.

Greg

 

[PlinkIt]

Hey yote is the tactical style match you have talking about at tsc open to public? I am about 3.5 hrs from it I believe..

but not a bad trip for something as elaborate as what it seems from what you are telling..

I have never done any comps though fyi but this sounds like a great time to me..

 

[JG26_Irish]

How can an archer with a recurve shoot better than a crossbow?.. It happens..

Still seems to me that the person with the inferior equipment will observe harder to try and understand where the short comings are.. The over confident will get lazy since they have THE RIFLE.. I think the archer matters far more than the bow ever will..

If not so.. Why is it I shoot better groups when I adjust my scope till I can't see the group?.. It stops me from being distracted.. It let's me do what I should do without analyzing between shots.. So even with the same archer and arrow there can be improvements if you can manage them.. And none of us will ever do it all right every day.. So the archer seems to be the questionable party to me

Derrick, there very well may be some truth to your statement above. Almost all of my recreational pursuits involve some form of competition. Racing, shooting matches, hunting, martial arts, etc. I have found that, especially when I am first learning a sport, that I improve faster and learn more when I am using inferior equipment. I think it forces me to concentrate more on my personal inputs and variables since I still have control of those. When racing motorcycles, I started on underpowered equipment and it forced me to learn to conserve my corner speed and brake less and to ride better than my opponents. I did not win like that but later when placed on state of the art equipment, I was very competitive due to having honed my skills to a high degree. A lot of road racers train with small underpowered dirt bike for this same reason. Just a random thought.

As for tgt sizes? One match I shot recently was with standard animal silhouettes the chicken at 25yds and the Pig at 50yds. The chicken is about 2" at its widest and the Piggy is about 4"? more or less. But the kicker is we shot it all off hand standing with or without sling. Made it much tougher. I hit about half of them. Another match used the std USBR tgts where the 10ring is about 1/10th inch. This at 50yds from benches. I found the later to be much easier. I scored 245 out of 250 with about 14x that day. It was quite windy too.

Irish

 

[jbell]

Great read this far, and brought out several subject matter experts..

Now I will add a rookies POV on archer vs arrow..

I enjoy learning what the bow does as is, then change something.. Maybe for the better.. Maybe for the worst. I may do more harm than good in my unintelligent attempts at making the rifle better.. But I will see what shows improvement and what shows back peddling. Then I have a chance to see how much my attitude about these things can change my accuracy.. Or perhaps I learn that I made a change that should improve but it doesn't fit me so I'm worse off.. It all seems to be about observation..

How can an archer with a recurve shoot better than a crossbow?.. It happens..

Still seems to me that the person with the inferior equipment will observe harder to try and understand where the short comings are.. The over confident will get lazy since they have THE RIFLE.. I think the archer matters far more than the bow ever will..

If not so.. Why is it I shoot better groups when I adjust my scope till I can't see the group?.. It stops me from being distracted.. It let's me do what I should do without analyzing between shots.. So even with the same archer and arrow there can be improvements if you can manage them.. And none of us will ever do it all right every day.. So the archer seems to be the questionable party to me

I agree with you completely that you must learn the specifics and practice them to perfection if you attempt to compete with inferior equipment and this is true with anything. Like many in this thread have said the Archer is the most important because a good shooter can shoot a lesser rifle well (for that rifle) but a bad shooter will not shoot a great rifle worth a damn. There fore matched head to head the good shooter with the lesser equipment more than likely will come out on top, I agree. You also bring up a good point that if a newer shooter is learning with high quality equipment then he is more likely to become lazy in his technique and then fall off, also very possible. All of this is very true no doubt.

I would like to bring up one more point of view to discuss and this one comes from personal experience through training for and shooting in competitions. I can only speak for myself on this but it is really on the shooter if they become lazy or complacent due to maybe over confidence from the very best equipment, its not the equipments fault. There again putting the most emphasis on the shooter as far as improvements are concerned.

I think that is what we are talking about in this thread is shooters improving themselves. So I will mention one more example for y'all to chew on. Do you think that there is a point when shooter improvement will be if not stopped but severely hindered from lack of quality equipment? Again speaking from only personal experience but for years I was shooting decent but not great gear and was doing well. It was not until I really saved up and stepped up in the quality of my gear that my scores really showed a big improvement, and this was after a long time of consistent scores. I know I was being held back from the lack of proper equipment no matter how hard I was training. So to add to that just a little how much sooner would I have been able to get to the level I was at after the equipment change had I started off with the best? Practice no matter how hard with low quality equipment will only take you so far both mentally and physically.

Don't get me wrong here guys, I am not saying this is the only way. It just a different point of view. Good discussion thus far...

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I think that is what we are talking about in this thread is shooters improving themselves. So I will mention one more example for y'all to chew on. Do you think that there is a point when shooter improvement will be if not stopped but severely hindered from lack of quality equipment? Again speaking from only personal experience but for years I was shooting decent but not great gear and was doing well. It was not until I really saved up and stepped up in the quality of my gear that my scores really showed a big improvement, and this was after a long time of consistent scores. I know I was being held back from the lack of proper equipment no matter how hard I was training. So to add to that just a little how much sooner would I have been able to get to the level I was at after the equipment change had I started off with the best? Practice no matter how hard with low quality equipment will only take you so far both mentally and physically.

Oh, yes, absolutely.

To me, the question is more about whether the shooter should reach and resolve the need for the upgrade, or simply go for it at the very beginning.

In the first instance, the shooter learns why better gear has a purpose, and has already learned how to obtain the full potential of what they have before they spend the bigger bucks. In my mind they use their resources better, and gain a more true appreciation for what they are stepping up to.

In the second instance, the shooter has the resource to excel, but may not ever find out how to utilize its upper limits. There may not be any clear motivation to do so. In this instance I suspect the Indian may never find his actual potential as an accomplished archer.

Greg

 

[Danco411]

I see it this way. When it comes to OCD I am case ZERO. So I see everything I do though my OCD lenses. I like good gear and treat my gear addiction as a single symptom. I like to assemble the best that I can afford. Once assembled I use the gear, take it apart, modify it to make it better and use it. I usually sell it and move on to other gear since I am not rich by any means. To as long as I have the basics on hand for emergencies I'm good. I want to try EVERYTHING! I love to reload so I treat that as a separate symptom. I reload for every caliber I try and try to make the best most consistent loads and shoot them. If I sell that caliber and move on the dies and supplies get cached for another day that caliber may pop back up.

I also like to shoot which in itself is my biggest symptom. I can shoot better with good gear and good ammo for sure but I try to shoot EVERYTHING I can. I shoot everyones firearms that will let me. I sight in friends and friends of freinds scopes for free just to shoot more. The more you shoot the better you get. The more different guns you shoot the better you get. I don't want to be a one trick pony who can only shoot good with my multi-K AICS rifle. I want to shoot the $35 1950 Wards .22 just as good. My OCD demands it. So be the Archer and have the Arrows but they are not dependent on each other.

 

[yoteman]

Bell you nailed it.
we most all have started out with lesser rigs,I started with a old winchester single shot
8 Years old shooting tree rats,
44 years latter iI have many different rigs in 22lr along.
to me starting out with lesser rifle (open sights) i learned to make my shot count.
an as a young Iad i had no bad habits,
but now with a laser rig, i some time find myself, lacking the mindset, to shoot correctly.
we all can fall into to this trap, (get lazy so to speak, are just have a shitty day at work, an really not be into it)

as i stated in my post above, i dont think, jimmy or brown could have shot the scores they did,
with say a lesser Rifle, not to take any thing away from these 2 shooters (they both are damm good marksmen)
but they have put the time in behind the trigger of there rifles, an now it shows

another case in point; Va Gentleman, has been hanging around the middle of the pack, for some years now,
an has stepped up his gear to higher standard, well all those matches, an partice with lesser rig,
has payed off, once he up the annie so to speak, an he has shot his way into the top 5 most matches.
last match he shot a hard 58, an in the past that would get you 1st place. Very hard hit to finish 3rd with that score
i an others think he has become the most improved shooter this year,an no longer the dark horse
but a front line contender, great shooting Franklin

so what is it the archer or the arrow,
i still say both,

 

[RicosRevenge]

Practice no matter how hard with low quality equipment will only take you so far both mentally and physically.

Nice jbell. Great comment and observations. I don't think that anyone here would argue that once one reaches the pinnacle of the equipment's capability - whether it be rifle, race car, etc... then it can definitely be frustrating and it is time to take another step up in order to continue progression.

I've really enjoyed Derrick's take on the conversation to bring things back around to what I originally intended this thread to be geared towards (the novice shooter just starting out). So thanks for sharing!

I will have to defer that when it comes down to competitive "brass tacks;" that Yote is correct that it is the combination of both archer and arrow that give the optimum results!

 

[PlinkIt]

I actually agree with all of the above.. Rico jbell yote danco.. Basically every ones point is true.. We all actually agree on the same things normally, but my recent view on life has led me to a new philosophy if you will..

It's all about perspective

Stopping to think of that single line has helped me understand far more things from others point of view, I will pick on jbell for a second. His skill behind a rifle has pushed him to a point that the equipment level is in his perspective so that's where he will take the thought process.. Yote points out this same subject and sites examples of experienced shooters that equipment henders performance..

Now myself I fall closer to the bottom of the experience pile and share the compulsion with danco to work on all my friends stuff for free to a point I work on others stuff more than my own.. It gives me access to more stuff to try without $$$ to buy.. And I learn a LOT this way I feel.. But my only driving force in my marksmanship is my OCD because I have no competition to compare myself to.. So my perspective is only in my own flaws not the weapons.. Hence my perspective being that it's more the archer, even though I agree with every statement after..

It's all in the individuals perspective..

 

[RicosRevenge]

I'll draw on your comments Derrick with an analogy...

I raced offshore boats for 9 years and actually have been faster on the water than on land. BUT, I didn't just jump into a 2,800 HP full race 46' Skater as a beginning boater. The results of that would be tragic; simply because there is no way a beginner could handle that. Previous to the big boys, I ran all sorts of boats from the time I was young... from a 14' old aluminum Starcraft on up. Ran each one to its potential and bumped up and bumped up - 21' Crownline, 24' Checkmate, 28' Scarab, 30' Eliminator, 32' Skater, 36' Apache, etc... without that experience and pushing each ride to its maximum (and sometimes beyond ;-P) potential and allowing my skill as a driver to develop past the limitations of each one - there is no way that I, or anyone would make it at 165 MPH in 6-8 seas with traffic.

The old saying is to "cut your teeth." Again, this is my opinion and that is an extreme example... but jumping in to a rifle that is so far beyond the capability of the shooter can have detrimental effects on the development of the shooter as well. As an inexperienced driver; they would not be capable of telling the difference between moderate and hi-end equipment from a performance stand-point without REALLY good instruction and critique. What happens when a new shooter gets his hands on jbell's amazing Suhl or Yotes nutty Anshutz? From the competition thread - we know exactly what those rifles are capable of. But a new shooter with those rifles and no coach could very easily lose interest and become frustrated because they are not achieving the results they expect. There is no natural progression of skill or satisfaction gained.

Keep it rolling...

 

[29aholic]

This has been a great read. I will interject my opinion having competed in a number of disciplines as follows:
IPSC/PPC-mostly Archer
Benchrest still mostly shooter with good equipment
Shotgun sports-All archer, I have seen it too many times. If you have a gun you shoot well it doesn't matter if it's a H&R handy gun or a K80...practice your ass off.
Positional shooting-mostly archer, there are a very few positional shooters capable of holding to the lever of accuracy the gun is capable of when shot off a rest.

I was in the top 100 in the world in Olympic Skeet back in the 90's and lost a local match to a guy shooting an 1100 with 10lbs of padding, weight, and tape wrapped around the butt. So much so there was no way to get on the gun. BUT, the guy could afford shells and he practiced his ass off and perfected imperfection.

My first BR rifle was a 70's vintage 700VS in 308 I bedded and worked the trigger over on. I shot that gun A LOT and could get consistent strings of groups sub 1/2". I won some with it, never finished below 3rd and was up against full on custom guns and guys that had shot for years. Why did I do so well?? I can tell you I never saw those guys at the range every weekend when I was SHOOTING.

Where I used to live there was a former Navy Seal that pretty much owned the local IPSC matches. If he showed up best anyone else could hope for was 2nd place. He shot a pretty much stock Colt government model.

 

[jbell]

I have to say the last several post have been spot on. This thread is a good one...

 

[walt willis]

That sounds so very funny as we had called the folks that spend a lot of money the ones that were trying to buy points.

I shot small bore in the Army in the late sixties in Germany using High Standard pistols and (Anshalts) ? rifles.

The coach used a custom built High Standard Citation five inch bull barrel.

He had the best gun and it shot better than the Supermatics with the ten inch barrel.

The best ammo by far was the Remington target that came in a yellow plastic box that held 100 rounds.

I think the trick is to try and match the resonate frequency of the bullet to the barrel or the barrel length to the bullet weight and speed.

Another tip is if you can find a leather weight lifters open fingered glove with a wrist strap to wear it will stiffen you wrist enough to minimize the shot group.

Yes it is cheating, but I won't tell...

 

[Pinecone]

The old saying is to "cut your teeth." Again, this is my opinion and that is an extreme example... but jumping in to a rifle that is so far beyond the capability of the shooter can have detrimental effects on the development of the shooter as well. As an inexperienced driver; they would not be capable of telling the difference between moderate and hi-end equipment from a performance stand-point without REALLY good instruction and critique. What happens when a new shooter gets his hands on jbell's amazing Suhl or Yotes nutty Anshutz? From the competition thread - we know exactly what those rifles are capable of. But a new shooter with those rifles and no coach could very easily lose interest and become frustrated because they are not achieving the results they expect. There is no natural progression of skill or satisfaction gained.

Keep it rolling...

Also, really high waulity equipment can mask basic flaws in technique. I have seen this in flying aerobatics and driving performance cars.

In aerobatics, if one tries to learn in a Pitts Special, they will not learn the basics, as the airplane makes up for their mistakes. Learning in a much less capable machine REQUIRES that you learn the basics, as the airplane will not perform the manuever unless you do everything right.

Same thing in track driving. I have seen MANY people who are fast, not because they can drive, but because of the capabilities of the car. Put them in an equal car with others, and they would be VERY slow. On of my favorite memories of track teaching was a 17 year old kid in his Dad's go to work Honda. The kid had a tricked out tuner car, that had blown up the week before. I told him he would learn more in the car he had brought, if he paid attention and learned. The last session, a Corvette had to point the kid by down the long straight. The kid was doing what I told him, and the Corvette driver was reying on HP down the straight. But 30 MPH faster exit speed from the lasst corner makes up a VERY large HP difference.

 

[JG26_Irish]

This really is a good discussion. When I first was exposed to the precision benchrest crowd, I had several very talented shooters suggest strongly to me to just bite the bullet and go out and buy the best equipment right off the bat. Their reasoning was that, I would end up doing that eventually anyway and it is cheaper to buy the best in the beginning instead of going thru several lesser rifles and scopes along the way up. This may be cheaper, but I am still not convinced that it is the best method. I have watched master class shooters who are lucky enough to have not one but two national class match rifles. When they do not shoot well, they will swap rifles, in the belief that the problem is with the equipment. Then still not shoot well. I think this behavior is akin to the pro golfer who suddenly develops a case of the "Yips" and struggles to put well. In my opinion, if you are shooting world class equipment like a Hall or a Turbo and it is not worn out, then any failure to get the job done is NOT from the equipment. "Its the Shooter". Their main problem was not accepting the fact that the guys beside them who also had world class equipment were shooting better on that day. A great marksman will usually shoot up to the potential of his rifle consistently. And when he or she does not, will use his or her noodle to evaluate what he or she is doing wrong to correct the problem. They know their equipment well enough to understand its potential and accept that when they are not shooting up to that potential, they do not blame the equipment first. After all, the human is likely more variable than that steel/wood/carbon-fiber wonder that they brought to the range. Good competitors look in the mirror first when seeking to find the cause of failure, instead of blaming others.

Another thing I have seen is that in the world of precision custom rifles there is a pecking order. Top flight gunsmiths are sometimes reluctant to give their best rifles to a beginner shooter. Their reasoning is that such a shooter is not going to be able to shoot to the potential of the gun and will make the smith look bad. They want the rifle with the killer bbl to be in the hands of one of the championship contenders. In such a manner their reputation as a top flight smith is established or maintained. It is a bit of a chicken or the egg thing but I have had one top smith tell me to go out and buy a used rifle instead of having him build one for me. At that time, I had fired only one match in his presence and scored last place. So, regardless of equipment, or skill, I was an unknown quantity. This guy had built several championship winning rifles and as such was not hurting for business. A talented but unproven smith will likely be less picky for a while. But such issues only come into play at the top levels of a sport. I mean, If I had walked into the AMG pit and asked to drive their Formula 1 car, I would also have been refused. Someone spoke of cutting one's teeth, as the process of developing the skill sets needed to drive a rig to its full potential. I agree with that. It also motivates you to grow enough to be worthy of the top flight equipment.

Irish

 

[walt willis]

Hey Irish, you are right on the mark...Also having been at the top of the game putting all five in the same hole I noticed that If one round went out side the hole I would then fall apart after that shot and needed a beir (German).
As we start to get old and can no longer gain in accuracy we tend to leave the sport all together.
At 67 years old I am just now starting to want to pass on what I know to the next generation of shooters.
With most of my old teem mates gone I also find it is hard to prove that a one hole target in the center is possible.
To the very few that will listen I'll share what I know with them and not worry about the grief given by the non believers.
All great shooters have a great gunsmith behind them as well as a great coach.
friendly competition is needed to have us push ourselves harder and learn more as we advance.
The shooters in the US are the most important asset this nation has to deter an invasion from a foreign power.
Field craft hunting skills are also important along with strategy and tactics.
Pay attention to details is what Carlos would always tell me as we were swapping lies...
Love the stories from the old war combat veterans.
Air, water, food, shelter, communication, and transportation were always the important issues when war strikes a nation.
Plan ahead, if not for yourself, then for the grandkids.

 

[Quarter Horse]

Typical of other threads on this forum, this one is particularly informative. It's interesting to see how many different paths there are to the same destination. I'll throw in my one cent. I say one cent because that's all it's worth.

First a look at the Indian. It's much easier for a new shooter to learn the right mechanics than it is to correct the wrong mechanics in a shooter who's been doing it wrong for years. The classic example is a flinch. This is extremely evident in the shotgun sports. A standard 12ga. target load produces a lot of recoil. A moderately active shooter will go through over ten thousand rounds a year in practice. A flinch with a shotgun does usually does three things at once. The shooter blinks the shot, moves into the gun and stops the gun's swing. The result is a miss. Note we are not even including the fact that the trigger is yanked instead of pulled smoothly. To overcome this you see all kinds of efforts to compensate. Release triggers trick the mind. Heavy guns absorb the recoil and make the gun harder to stop in mid swing and there's a hole list of recoil reducing gizmos. Translate a flinch to precision rifles and the guy doesn't have a chance. If the sole limiting factor on a rifle is a bad trigger a good shooter will overcome it and get it to shoot it's best. The guy with the flinch will not be able to overcome the poor trigger.

Now to the arrow and the bow. If the same guy with the flinch is shooting a small enough cartridge, in a heavy enough rifle, with a good enough trigger he may get a reasonable level of performance. The flinch is still there but the right equipment will help to mitigate his problem.

Now we go back to the archer. Though the flinch shows up in the mechanics it's actually generated in the head. Every guy here, no matter how good he is, has blown a group on the fourth or fifth shot that started out with three in one hole. The performance of J Bells girls is instructive in this. They started with no pre-existing problems and got good instruction. There bow and arrow were capable of superb performance but there is a third influence. They had absolutely no idea how hard it is to reach the level of performance they were about to exhibit. All they knew was their dad was proud of them and told them they had done well. Out of forty-four shooters and rifles, they are still numbers seven and nine. Payton's best group is still number three. These standings do not reflect all the guys and gals that started this test and decided not to post.

This begs one more question about what's in the mind and that is motivation. When I'm doing load development I bear down hard on my shooting. I don't want fliers or changes in point of impact that will give me false information. I don't have an opportunity to compete so if I'm shooting groups for fun my head may not be in it, I get casual, I get lazy and it shows up immediately.

My view on what to buy or what level performance is required is simple. At the very least your equipment has to be better then you are. If you are a half inch shooter with a one inch gun you'll never realize that half inch group you are capable of. If your goal is to be the very best you can than buy the best you can. It may be expensive but it doesn't have to be costly. If you do your homework, buy used and shop hard you can buy at a figure that will allow to sell the gun at any time without losing money.

My personal journey for a trainer led to a Mod. 52C Sporter from Browning. Guys like to call them a "reissue" but they are a reproduction crafted by Miroku for Browning. Study on Rimfirecentral.com showed me they were certainly more capable than I was. I bought SK, Wolf and Center-X. The high end SK and Wolf were about as productive as the Center-X so they became my choice. I actually spent a lot more time playing with bulk. Remember the aforementioned casual and lazy. Then along came BM11's 6x5 thread. After acquiring a brick of Center-X I posted my first target which was in the low .5"s. I didn't know whether that was my limit or not but I did believe it was not the rifle's limit. The next target was in the fours and the last target was in the low .3"s. Do I think I've yet met the equipment's limits? In a word, NO. The rifle is 8#6oz. with a 3# trigger, not ideal but with the proper focus and technique I know it will shoot in the twos. So it's all on me.

 

[justin amateur]

So how do you determine if it's the archer or the bow that's the problem?
In my case, elimination of the archer from the dynamic showed a need for better equipment.
I plateaued with the setup I had. No improvement on target. No decrease in group size.
I had to figure out why. A one piece test rest was required. With the rest and several trips to the range,
with different grades of ammo it was obvious the problem was the rifle, not me. That was when
my on line research into rifle modifications took off. Read the recommendations made by skilled shooters
and make the modifications. Each improvement to the mechanics of the rifle led to an improvement
in accuracy. Torque adjustments, receiver bedding, pillaring, barrel shimming, match grade barrel and
bench trigger each made incremental improvements to the target results. When I finally put together
a rifle that provided consistent trajectories, it became obvious when I made an error and when I got
things right. I knew it wasn't the rifle causing the slop, it was all on me. You can put an edge on your
abilities with decent equipment, but honing your skills requires the best you can afford.

 

[Quarter Horse]

I'm in agreement with much of what has been posted and in complete agreement with your last post Justin. At some point either the arrow or the archer reaches it's limit. It is far easier to establish the limits of the arrow. The cautionary note is ammo. I've now got four complete or partial bricks of Center-X plus one box from the original brick that I've kept as a control load. I haven't yet tried to determine if one of these lot numbers is superior. That obviously brings to mind my notations concerning laziness and motivation. One of the references in this thread leads one to a description of benchrest shooters and the ends they go to to find that magic lot number. As the numbers get smaller, every element becomes more critical. I'm still thinking in tenths and those guys are thinking in hundredths and eventually in thousandths.

While working on the 6x5 thread I tried a shortcut. I was so pleased with the 52 I started shopping for another one. Instead I fell across a 60's Anschutz 54 Super Match that appeared to be in very high condition. It was an auction and I ended up with it at a price that was reasonable. I was pleased when it arrived as it appeared unfired with only minor dings on the stock, what I call new but rack worn. It's interesting how many new rifles have been purchased or old rifles modified on the 6x5 thread. I found the optics mounting solution I wanted and after a clean up, trigger mod. and re-torque etc. I started banging away. Initially I couldn't best the 52 but on the third target I beat it by .004". It wasn't worth it. I was going up six pounds in weight, from a magazine to a single shot, down two pounds in trigger weight and for a very marginal improvement. The scope is off the 54 and it is retired. I know I could squeeze more out of the 54 but I don't see that it would be worth it.

Steve123 points out that it is about balance. More accurate is better but only a certain level of innate accuracy is required to be competitive or even dominate in various disciplines. I guarantee that Jerry Miculek's three gun AR won't out shoot my 15T by much if at all. I also guarantee that Miculek can best me with my own rifle on any course of fire.

I suppose, in the end, the Indian will always be the limiting factor. You can always switch guns or modify what you have. Your rifle, on the other hand, is stuck with you.

 

[walt willis]

I agree and would like to add another point of interest...

A shooter that is able to call his shot about 90% of the time accurately will start to improve his shooting faster.

It also helps to have a coach stand by and give instant feedback as well as record the shooters progress to review the next day.

Plinking is fun but not nearly as productive as coach and shooter practice.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

I bet ya'll have been thinkin,"Now why don't he write?"
Rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated. I simply don't visit here much and to be honest...I don't post much anywhere anymore. I have took about all the crap off of 20 something French models on teh internet that my old crotchety ass can stand. In short I just don't have time to "live" in the virtual world anymore. I see Rico has provided me a springboard to wax eloquent that I simply can't resist.

Well I speed read most of the stuff gents so I appologize if I don't pay particular attention to calling anyone on teh carpet or patting anyone on the back. I may regurgitate what has been said and I may step on some toes but it is not personal and frankly I didn't read it all.

Yote has already covered a large anomaly that just recently happened. I will say that I don't agree with the assesment that the Martini shoots OK, that is not altogether true. The Martini is a hammer with the ammo it likes, I have seen it too many times. All the cosmic tumblers clicked on the 12th of July and I am loath that I wasn't there to see the show. Brownie is one of the best shooters in the country(and has the trophies to prove it) and if you drop his name in certain circles, even on the left coast....they know who he is IMMEDIATELY. He is one of the best positional shooters I have ever met.
TSC has gotten progressively harder...maybe exponentially. When shooters would complain about why they couldn't shoot more prone...HARDER! When they complained more...OBSTACLES! Some flourished, some left.
Now why on earth would you make a course harder when the competitor wants it easier? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? If you make it easier on the shooter he has no desire, impetus, drive, to do better. Usually he will begin to talk about how he is simply shooting against himself. I am gonna bruise a moomoo or two here so hold on...shooting against yourself is like kissing your sister, gross and unsatisfying. If it is satisfying you have problems. Get it? Got it? Doubt it.

If you want to be a great shooter you need a challenge. You need to shoot against better shooters than yourself, harder for some than others. When you get to teh top of the heap guess what. Believe it or not some want a piece of you and that is a good thing. At long last there are those that have a desire, a drive to take someone down...they "want it". Is he gonna talk about the indian and the arrow Daddy? Yes, yes but not yet, this is important.

When I started in serious competition I did not know I wanted to be a better shooter. I wanted to play a game. Now some folks take their ball and go home after a while...and that is ok too....guess what...you don't really want it. Americans like to play teh game, but most important they like to win! They want to be a winner. Not everyone can be a winner, they often turn into whiners and talk about kissing their sister, and giving advice on making things easier for them to win(that was a shameless dig).

I did not know I needed better equipment until someone much better than me told me I was ready. I hate to say it but after many years of shooting and running matches, I look around and can point my finger and say, "got it" "don't got it" "never gonna have it". Boys it is called the stuff. Some were born with a little and some were born with a lot. Some of us grew up popping the hedgerows and fields for any game that would give a good chase, litterally from the time we could walk. A guy said a while ago in an open forum that the Chikn was born with the stuff. He is wrong. The Chikn was born with a small modecum of "the stuff" and through judicious practice has parlayed it into something that looks way bigger than it really is.
We have a shooter that is 14 at TSC. I have played a small part in his training along with his father and uncle(who played much larger parts), since he was 9. He immediately showed signs of being a natural, phenom, "possesor of the stuff", whatever you want to call it. I spent 37 years becoming the shooter I am and I feel only worthy to tote water for the kid. One thing that I noticed in him immediately. The fundamental change that comes over him when he gets behind a rifle is amazing. As grown men we think we "know how to do it", we don't. A child given a direction does what he is told. A man told to do something often gets pissed off. You have to approach your shooting with a purity of heart and a clean mind. What? To much Zen?

You have to want to do better no matter teh obstacles put in your way. NO...you can't win a match with sub standard equipment, against seasoned shooters with top shelf equipment, that have a desire to vanquish all comers. Now you can whine about how if that guy had your equipment and he had yours things would be different. Nothing makes me laugh harder than that suggestion. If you have the "stuff" you need the equipment and the ammo that is comensurate with your talent. If you do not have the stuff no amount of money can buy you a win. The first thing you need is the desire to win! Yes I said win. "But I can never win if Steve is shooting." Nope and you never will with taht attitude. "Just when I think I am about to win they make it harder." Dig harder!
When I am shooting a match do you know how I know I did my best? I will be physically and emotionally drained, period. I have come off the line in many matches and my knees were so weak I could barely stand. Care to guess how I did in those matches, without exception? Yes I have come off the line and said I did my best, but it was rarely true.

Most of your shooting ability resides in that grey matter between your ears and it takes a lot more to master that than anything else. There are intricacies and finer points to be sure but in a nutshell it's your fault if you can't make the shot.

If you have mastered all these things and the secrets of your brain, you need some top shelf equipment.

However nothing saddens me more than what I know to be a great shooter using mediocre equipment and ammo.

 

[steve123]

Welcome to the Snipers Hide Bolero.

I have a photobucket account, select a photo, then select the IMG code- it automatically copies and then paste it on my post.

 

[yoteman]

Chikn you are right,thanks for calling me on that,
my fingers faster then my brain
Brown's martini is a hammer,
what i meant was when he has his ammo lot that makes it a lasser

 

[walt willis]

Hey Gunny I don't believe we have met as I was a cop out west NC in the late 1990's

We moved to ID because my wife could not take the bugs and humidity.

Please tell the folks in NC that I miss them...

 

[yoteman]

I bet ya'll have been thinkin,"Now why don't he write?"
Rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated. I simply don't visit here much and to be honest...I don't post much anywhere anymore. I have took about all the crap off of 20 something French models on teh internet that my old crotchety ass can stand. In short I just don't have time to "live" in the virtual world anymore. I see Rico has provided me a springboard to wax eloquent that I simply can't resist.

Well I speed read most of the stuff gents so I appologize if I don't pay particular attention to calling anyone on teh carpet or patting anyone on the back. I may regurgitate what has been said and I may step on some toes but it is not personal and frankly I didn't read it all.

Yote has already covered a large anomaly that just recently happened. I will say that I don't agree with the assesment that the Martini shoots OK, that is not altogether true. The Martini is a hammer with the ammo it likes, I have seen it too many times. All the cosmic tumblers clicked on the 12th of July and I am loath that I wasn't there to see the show. Brownie is one of the best shooters in the country(and has the trophies to prove it) and if you drop his name in certain circles, even on the left coast....they know who he is IMMEDIATELY. He is one of the best positional shooters I have ever met.
TSC has gotten progressively harder...maybe exponentially. When shooters would complain about why they couldn't shoot more prone...HARDER! When they complained more...OBSTACLES! Some flourished, some left.
Now why on earth would you make a course harder when the competitor wants it easier? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? If you make it easier on the shooter he has no desire, impetus, drive, to do better. Usually he will begin to talk about how he is simply shooting against himself. I am gonna bruise a moomoo or two here so hold on...shooting against yourself is like kissing your sister, gross and unsatisfying. If it is satisfying you have problems. Get it? Got it? Doubt it.

If you want to be a great shooter you need a challenge. You need to shoot against better shooters than yourself, harder for some than others. When you get to teh top of the heap guess what. Believe it or not some want a piece of you and that is a good thing. At long last there are those that have a desire, a drive to take someone down...they "want it". Is he gonna talk about the indian and the arrow Daddy? Yes, yes but not yet, this is important.

When I started in serious competition I did not know I wanted to be a better shooter. I wanted to play a game. Now some folks take their ball and go home after a while...and that is ok too....guess what...you don't really want it. Americans like to play teh game, but most important they like to win! They want to be a winner. Not everyone can be a winner, they often turn into whiners and talk about kissing their sister, and giving advice on making things easier for them to win(that was a shameless dig).

I did not know I needed better equipment until someone much better than me told me I was ready. I hate to say it but after many years of shooting and running matches, I look around and can point my finger and say, "got it" "don't got it" "never gonna have it". Boys it is called the stuff. Some were born with a little and some were born with a lot. Some of us grew up popping the hedgerows and fields for any game that would give a good chase, litterally from the time we could walk. A guy said a while ago in an open forum that the Chikn was born with the stuff. He is wrong. The Chikn was born with a small modecum of "the stuff" and through judicious practice has parlayed it into something that looks way bigger than it really is.
We have a shooter that is 14 at TSC. I have played a small part in his training along with his father and uncle(who played much larger parts), since he was 9. He immediately showed signs of being a natural, phenom, "possesor of the stuff", whatever you want to call it. I spent 37 years becoming the shooter I am and I feel only worthy to tote water for the kid. One thing that I noticed in him immediately. The fundamental change that comes over him when he gets behind a rifle is amazing. As grown men we think we "know how to do it", we don't. A child given a direction does what he is told. A man told to do something often gets pissed off. You have to approach your shooting with a purity of heart and a clean mind. What? To much Zen?

You have to want to do better no matter teh obstacles put in your way. NO...you can't win a match with sub standard equipment, against seasoned shooters with top shelf equipment, that have a desire to vanquish all comers. Now you can whine about how if that guy had your equipment and he had yours things would be different. Nothing makes me laugh harder than that suggestion. If you have the "stuff" you need the equipment and the ammo that is comensurate with your talent. If you do not have the stuff no amount of money can buy you a win. The first thing you need is the desire to win! Yes I said win. "But I can never win if Steve is shooting." Nope and you never will with taht attitude. "Just when I think I am about to win they make it harder." Dig harder!
When I am shooting a match do you know how I know I did my best? I will be physically and emotionally drained, period. I have come off the line in many matches and my knees were so weak I could barely stand. Care to guess how I did in those matches, without exception? Yes I have come off the line and said I did my best, but it was rarely true.

Most of your shooting ability resides in that grey matter between your ears and it takes a lot more to master that than anything else. There are intricacies and finer points to be sure but in a nutshell it's your fault if you can't make the shot.

If you have mastered all these things and the secrets of your brain, you need some top shelf equipment.

However nothing saddens me more than what I know to be a great shooter using mediocre equipment and ammo.

JL it was indeed a show of marksmanship.
by two of the top shooters, with top gear.
I know what you told me Friday, but was not the same at the match without ya,
an yes sniper JAY, does have the STUFF, it has been great watching him grow up as a young man, an a marksman, over the pass couple of years.
an IMO he has had some of the best teachers I know, leading him along. yes he is one in a hundred. with the stuff that most strive, to develop,
like I said at the last match, if I beat jays score I have had a great day.
we all have fun an joke around at the match, but when the top 10 shooters step up to shoot, you can bet they are there to win, an justly so,

my vote is still both archer/arrow, both have to be on top of there game, because others will.
now rico I agree a new shooter, needs to hone there skill at 1st before worrying about top gear, however while practicing one still needs the gear that can give them good feed back

 

[Rolltide]

This is a great thread. I don't shoot many matches these days, but in every one I have shot in, the winning shooter had great equipment and shot a lot.

One guy who used to shoot with us started bragging that he was going to "clean house" at the next match because he had bought a Kimber SVT and had put a Swarovski on it. I'd never paid much attention to his shooting before, but did when he came to the range on day while I was there. He set up next to me and proceeded to shoot 1" groups at 50 yards with every brand of ammo he had. I had my CZ 452 Varmint that day with a Leupold Vari-X 2 4-12 AO and most of my groups were considerably smaller than his. After a while, he was so frustrated that he asked me to shoot his rifle to make sure he wasn't the problem. I told him to shoot mine while I shot his. I shot 5 groups with the Kimber and the largest was .58. At the same time, he shot 5 groups with mine and the smallest was .87.

I'm a long way from being a great shot, but that day, I learned a few things and also finally understood some things I'd been told before. He was so convinced that the Kimber would be the magic pill he needed, that he never gave any thought to how he could improve. I figured out that two of my groups with his rifle were much better than I had ever achieved with my CZ, thus there is something to be said for better equipment.

I'm a firm believer that if I don't hit where I'm aiming now, it's me, not the Anschutz 64 MPR. Its humbling sometimes when I have to admit that, but I'll take that over wondering what happened when my groups open and I don't know if it's me or my rifle.

Thanks again for a great thread!

Chris

 

[armorpl8chikn]

I will lay on you a sad fact of life in the shooting world.
There are some who are born to it.
There are some that work at it.
There are some that teach it.
There are some who need to sell their rifles and buy some golf clubs.

Not everyone can shoot boys, no matter how hard they try. I have looked into the eyes of hopelessness, more than once.

Ok I will finally answer the question Johnny.

It is part Indian, part bow and part arrow. The degree that expensive bows and arrows helps an indian is solely dependent on the indian.
Some indians will never have the goods.
Some indians have a little talent, and some indians have a lot.
Just because you see an indian with a compound bow, does not mean he has talent. Just because he totes a hickory limb bow, doesn't mean he lacks talent.

The indian that consistently uses his equipment to it's potential is a truly dangerous indian.

 

[Blitz4]

My thoughts exactly! Best post I've read in a while.

I bet ya'll have been thinkin,"Now why don't he write?"
Rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated. I simply don't visit here much and to be honest...I don't post much anywhere anymore. I have took about all the crap off of 20 something French models on teh internet that my old crotchety ass can stand. In short I just don't have time to "live" in the virtual world anymore. I see Rico has provided me a springboard to wax eloquent that I simply can't resist.

Well I speed read most of the stuff gents so I appologize if I don't pay particular attention to calling anyone on teh carpet or patting anyone on the back. I may regurgitate what has been said and I may step on some toes but it is not personal and frankly I didn't read it all.

Yote has already covered a large anomaly that just recently happened. I will say that I don't agree with the assesment that the Martini shoots OK, that is not altogether true. The Martini is a hammer with the ammo it likes, I have seen it too many times. All the cosmic tumblers clicked on the 12th of July and I am loath that I wasn't there to see the show. Brownie is one of the best shooters in the country(and has the trophies to prove it) and if you drop his name in certain circles, even on the left coast....they know who he is IMMEDIATELY. He is one of the best positional shooters I have ever met.
TSC has gotten progressively harder...maybe exponentially. When shooters would complain about why they couldn't shoot more prone...HARDER! When they complained more...OBSTACLES! Some flourished, some left.
Now why on earth would you make a course harder when the competitor wants it easier? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? If you make it easier on the shooter he has no desire, impetus, drive, to do better. Usually he will begin to talk about how he is simply shooting against himself. I am gonna bruise a moomoo or two here so hold on...shooting against yourself is like kissing your sister, gross and unsatisfying. If it is satisfying you have problems. Get it? Got it? Doubt it.

If you want to be a great shooter you need a challenge. You need to shoot against better shooters than yourself, harder for some than others. When you get to teh top of the heap guess what. Believe it or not some want a piece of you and that is a good thing. At long last there are those that have a desire, a drive to take someone down...they "want it". Is he gonna talk about the indian and the arrow Daddy? Yes, yes but not yet, this is important.

When I started in serious competition I did not know I wanted to be a better shooter. I wanted to play a game. Now some folks take their ball and go home after a while...and that is ok too....guess what...you don't really want it. Americans like to play teh game, but most important they like to win! They want to be a winner. Not everyone can be a winner, they often turn into whiners and talk about kissing their sister, and giving advice on making things easier for them to win(that was a shameless dig).

I did not know I needed better equipment until someone much better than me told me I was ready. I hate to say it but after many years of shooting and running matches, I look around and can point my finger and say, "got it" "don't got it" "never gonna have it". Boys it is called the stuff. Some were born with a little and some were born with a lot. Some of us grew up popping the hedgerows and fields for any game that would give a good chase, litterally from the time we could walk. A guy said a while ago in an open forum that the Chikn was born with the stuff. He is wrong. The Chikn was born with a small modecum of "the stuff" and through judicious practice has parlayed it into something that looks way bigger than it really is.
We have a shooter that is 14 at TSC. I have played a small part in his training along with his father and uncle(who played much larger parts), since he was 9. He immediately showed signs of being a natural, phenom, "possesor of the stuff", whatever you want to call it. I spent 37 years becoming the shooter I am and I feel only worthy to tote water for the kid. One thing that I noticed in him immediately. The fundamental change that comes over him when he gets behind a rifle is amazing. As grown men we think we "know how to do it", we don't. A child given a direction does what he is told. A man told to do something often gets pissed off. You have to approach your shooting with a purity of heart and a clean mind. What? To much Zen?

You have to want to do better no matter teh obstacles put in your way. NO...you can't win a match with sub standard equipment, against seasoned shooters with top shelf equipment, that have a desire to vanquish all comers. Now you can whine about how if that guy had your equipment and he had yours things would be different. Nothing makes me laugh harder than that suggestion. If you have the "stuff" you need the equipment and the ammo that is comensurate with your talent. If you do not have the stuff no amount of money can buy you a win. The first thing you need is the desire to win! Yes I said win. "But I can never win if Steve is shooting." Nope and you never will with taht attitude. "Just when I think I am about to win they make it harder." Dig harder!
When I am shooting a match do you know how I know I did my best? I will be physically and emotionally drained, period. I have come off the line in many matches and my knees were so weak I could barely stand. Care to guess how I did in those matches, without exception? Yes I have come off the line and said I did my best, but it was rarely true.

Most of your shooting ability resides in that grey matter between your ears and it takes a lot more to master that than anything else. There are intricacies and finer points to be sure but in a nutshell it's your fault if you can't make the shot.

If you have mastered all these things and the secrets of your brain, you need some top shelf equipment.

However nothing saddens me more than what I know to be a great shooter using mediocre equipment and ammo.

 

[RicosRevenge]

I bet ya'll have been thinkin,"Now why don't he write?"

I knew I would sucker you in eventually... LOL!!

 

[RicosRevenge]

Saw this article... it really doesn't help any view point in particular. It actually validates pretty much every POV stated here! LOL!!

PRACTICAL LONG-RANGE RIFLE SHOOTING - PART I: THE RIFLE & GEAR

 

[yoteman]

I knew I would sucker you in eventually... LOL!!

he does not speak offten, but when he does, he perfers,(ah shit i dont know what he perfers) LOL
YO

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Dos Equis you ninny hammer!
LMAO

 

[George Az]

I am the Archer, Steve123 refers to on page one. So I showed up thinking I wanted to shoot. I am not fond of the egos and rules of the USPSA and all kinds of "gun gamers" of which I have participated for 20+ years. I played that game for a while and dropped out in 2007. I had shot a few matches such as the W/S Single Stack Classic. I am a certified armorer yada,yada. Not that any of that shit matters when you go to the firing line. I like shooting, but I am trying to find the appropriate shooting format for which to compete. You are playing a game. It isn't hunting and it isn't combat. I hear people talking about 1/2 MOA all day long, but if it were true, they would be champion shooters. By the way, Steve can shoot, he is one of the most laid back and helpful folks I have ever run into. Far cry from the "gamers." Somehow, I found this site as I began looking and it seemed way less b/s than many other sites where everyone seems to be a spec ops guru or world champ.

Part of my issue right off the bat was the understanding of targets. Small, as in real small. These guys were splitting playing cards and matchsticks at 25 yards. I never understood the difference of ammo - especially match .22 ammo at 100 yards. But, I was fighting another issue. My home made 10/22 was built fine for rabbit hunting (thumbhole & Volqui trigger parts, heavy barrel) but not for real precision and I was have real issues with repeatable groups and flyers. In the last 7 months I have been through 3 scopes, 3 rails, 3 different sets of rings. Got some parts from Kidd. Bedded the action per Rimfire Central (highly advised). The hardest thing was waiting for Match ammo to show up. Then things began to come into focus. Now to be honest, I was fighting and learning on two fronts. Now I can split a match and a playing card. It holds a consistent group at 100 yards.

This has caused me to put my one custom rifle in the safe before I proceed with further development and get into true L/R precision shooting. I can learn a lot with this .22. I can continue learning practing for hunting season with a factory rifle and a few mods with the knowledge I have gained here. It takes handloads and a very decent trigger. Why needlessly wear out a barrel.

I think if 7 months ago, I started with an Anshutz I would have learned quicker - but that is a maybe. It is an evolutionary process. I learned a lot and accomplished some things. I think I can build a fair 10/22 at this point. I would do some things in a different order. I learned a little about growth and being beaten by a 11 year old girl.

You can buy the best and talk all kinds of talk. Until you go to the firing line, it don't mean nothing. I can own a Ferrari and it don't mean I know how to drive it.

The greatest competition as a shooter is yourself. If you make even small gains, you are doing things right.

 

[steve123]

Thanks for the compliment George.

That was some fine shooting you did yesterday! .9" or so 5 shot group at 100Y, about the same size at 50Y without sling in sitting position and all 5 blow pops at 50Y.

I'm looking forward to our club growing and doing even more interesting courses of fire. Man I wish we could involve more distance!

 

[RicosRevenge]

Great comments George, oh... and...

I can own a Ferrari and it don't mean I know how to drive it.

You buy one and I can teach you ;-P

 

[bobtodrick]

So much of what you say is true George.
Too many egos and b.s. out there for my liking.
Although I find that forums like this can have a wealth of info, it's gotten to the point where I very seldom open threads that start off with 'here's my great grouping this weekend'.
I know it will be full of shooters claiming they shoot 1/2MOA at 100yds all day long, 100% of the time.
Yet at the range I shoot at a lot of guys are shooting 1-2" consistently at 100yds. The odd shooter with a full BR setup is doing better.
Gotta admit though, I do get a kick out of the excuses:
-'a bit too much wind today'
-'didn't get a chance to clean the barrel properly'
-'bad ammo'
And on and on.
BTW...I used to own an Alfa Romeo...couldn't drive it any better than any of my other cars LOL