The ATF Backed Down.

[Srgt. Hulka]

At least temporarily.


(Billing Code: 4410-FY-P)
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives
Docket No. 2020R-10W
Objective Factors for Classifying Weapons with “Stabilizing Braces”; Withdrawal of Guidance
AGENCY: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, Department of Justice.
ACTION: Notice; withdrawal.
SUMMARY: The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (“ATF”) is announcing the withdrawal of a notice and request for comments entitled “Objective Factors for Classifying Weapons with ‘Stabilizing Braces’,” that was published on December 18, 2020.
DATES: The withdrawal is effective [INSERT DATE OF PUBLICATION IN THE FEDERAL REGISTER].
ADDRESSES: This Notice also will be made available on the ATF Web site (www.atf.gov).
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Andrew Lange, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, U.S. Department of Justice, 99 New York Ave. NE, Mail Stop 6N-518, Washington DC 20226; telephone: (202) 648-7070 (this is not a toll-free number). SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION:
1

Upon further consultation with the Department of Justice and the Office of the Deputy Attorney General, ATF is withdrawing, pending further Department of Justice review, the notice and request for comments entitled “Objective Factors for Classifying Weapons with ‘Stabilizing Braces’,” that was published on December 18, 2020. 85 FR 82516. As explained in the notice, the proposed guidance was not a regulation. The notice informed and invited comment from the industry and public on a proposed guidance prior to issuing a final guidance document.
The withdrawal of the guidance does not change any law, regulation, or other legally binding requirement.
December 23, 2020
Marvin G. Richardson Associate Deputy Director
2

 

[W54/XM-388]

For now...

 

[Srgt. Hulka]

For now...

Yup.....

 

[kyzim311]

Now on to 80% lower stupidity for the next while

 

[nikonNUT]

So what is the ATFs next "Proposed guidance"?

 

[Anb618]

If they leave the portal open (likely during the holiday season), I’m still going to send my letter for comment this week, as should the rest of you (even if you don’t own a brace). I want my objections on file.

Objective Factors for Classifying Weapons with “Stabilizing Braces”

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (``ATF'') is publishing the objective factors it considers when evaluating firearms with an attached stabilizing brace to determine whether they are considered firearms under the National Firearms Act (``NFA'') and/or the Gun Control Act...

www.federalregister.gov

 

[KZP]

So what is the ATFs next "Proposed guidance"?

All citizens need to stop by KFC and deliver one bucket per firearm purchase.

 

[Howland]

So what is the ATFs next "Proposed guidance"?

They are just biding their time and counting on "further Department of Justice review" to be with the Pretender Elect's minions, likely Beto O'Dourke.

What is instructive is the notice posted above acknowledged that it wasn't even a regulation (it certainly isn't law), but was only a notice of guidance still in request for comments stage yet they were already running smash and grab raids.

 

[candyx]

They are just biding their time and counting on "further Department of Justice review" to be with the Pretender Elect's minions, likely Beto O'Dourke.

How stupid can one be to want to disarm 100 million people , tomorrow is promised to no one.

 

[Yasherka]

All citizens need to stop by KFC and deliver one bucket per firearm purchase.

Interesting choice of terminology at the end:

...preserve our combat ability

 

[nikonNUT]

They are just biding their time and counting on "further Department of Justice review" to be with the Pretender Elect's minions, likely Beto O'Dourke.

What is instructive is the notice posted above acknowledged that it wasn't even a regulation (it certainly isn't law), but was only a notice of guidance still in request for comments stage yet they were already running smash and grab raids.

Agreed. I thought is was instructive as well hence my comment. I see it like the Nazis "proposed guidance" that the Jews get in the box cars "was not a regulation"...

How stupid can one be to want to disarm 100 million people , tomorrow is promised to no one.

I'm gonna go with "What is pretty damn?" for $1000.00, Alex.

 

[deersniper]

 

[TheHorta]

All citizens need to stop by KFC and deliver one bucket per firearm purchase.

The most problematic statement in that entire letter seems to have gone entirely unnoticed, e.g. “preserve our combat ability.”

This is the problem with much of domestic law enforcement, even many small town agencies. They think they’re a combat element and equip themselves as such. The only problem is, we citizens are the only “enemy” around.

Personally, I see a huge problem with this as it is the prevailing doctrine nationwide.

 

[deersniper]

They think they’re a combat element and equip themselves as such.

Until some pimple face 14 year old is shooing up a school then they hide outside.
Etc
Etc
Etc

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

If they leave the portal open (likely during the holiday season), I’m still going to send my letter for comment this week, as should the rest of you (even if you don’t own a brace). I want my objections on file.

Objective Factors for Classifying Weapons with “Stabilizing Braces”

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (``ATF'') is publishing the objective factors it considers when evaluating firearms with an attached stabilizing brace to determine whether they are considered firearms under the National Firearms Act (``NFA'') and/or the Gun Control Act...

www.federalregister.gov

I already did, and it was fairly lengthy too. I sited 3 specific reasons for them backing off this idea that I felt were very compelling... I encourage everyone to comment and be specific.

 

[nikonNUT]

The most problematic statement in that entire letter seems to have gone entirely unnoticed, e.g. “preserve our combat ability.”

This is the problem with much of domestic law enforcement, even many small town agencies. They think they’re a combat element and equip themselves as such. The only problem is, we citizens are the only “enemy” around.

Personally, I see a huge problem with this as it is the prevailing doctrine nationwide.

Quoted for truth! Had the local SO ask my work for a favor a few years back. Said they need someplace with a few forklifts lifts to remove a rack from a vehicle the gubment gave them. They showed up with a Buffalo or some other APC looking thing (I don't military vehicles that well. Sorry) and we did the deed of hoisting it off for them. All I could think was "Jesus Christ! What redneck group are y'all planning to tangle with?"

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

They are just biding their time and counting on "further Department of Justice review" to be with the Pretender Elect's minions, likely Beto O'Dourke.

What is instructive is the notice posted above acknowledged that it wasn't even a regulation (it certainly isn't law), but was only a notice of guidance still in request for comments stage yet they were already running smash and grab raids.

We're they really doing raids already??? Or is that hyperbole?

 

[x2cross]

I sited 3 specific reasons for them backing off this idea that I felt were very compelling...

Care to share the main points? My main idea is the whole "shall not be infringed" thing

 

[gunman_7]

We're they really doing raids already??? Or is that hyperbole?

I believe he's referring to the raid of multiple 80% lower companies.

 

[Blutroop]

We're they really doing raids already??? Or is that hyperbole?

Ask p80 or diversified machine.

Edited for ignorance

 

[Huskydriver]

Ask p80 or defiance machine.

It's Deversified machine killer not defiance

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Care to share the main points? My main idea is the whole "shall not be infringed" thing

Sure. These were the 3 ideas that I focused on.

1. No link to any crime or criminal activity.

2. Economic, in a time where millions of Americans are without their jobs due to shutdowns by government.

3. This type of arbitrary decision would likely be a "straw that breaks the camels back" situation for many millions across the country. The results are more likely to be: "making criminals out of millions who try very hard to follow the law" and then having that group against you, instead of supporting you.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Shall Not Be Infringed!!!
It's fucking simple. Arguing with them on any other grounds is a waste of time and energy.

Sure. These were the 3 ideas that I focused on.

1. No link to any crime or criminal activity.

2. Economic, in a time where millions of Americans are without their jobs due to shutdowns by government.

3. This type of arbitrary decision would likely be a "straw that breaks the camels back" situation for many millions across the country. The results are more likely to be: "making criminals out of millions who try very hard to follow the law" and then having that group against you, instead of supporting you.

 

[shoot4fun]

They may have backed down but don't think the issue won't be back soon.
At least it is good news for the holiday season.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Interesting choice of terminology at the end: "...preserve Our Combat ability"

I hope someone has contacted their Congressmen and/or Senators to inquire what they mean by "Combat Ability."

This is not a "Combat Unit" and no LEO unit is supposed to be a "Combat" unit. They are supposed to Protect and Serve.

Do they need training for defense and to carry out their duties? Absolutely. And some of that can be pretty high speed, especially for select units designed to deal with special and unusual situations.

But LE is NOT training for combat. It is training for a worst-case scenario and if 'combat' erupts, it's probably because every procedure and protocol to 'protect and serve' was violated or because someone screwed up royally. I would never want to see officers sent out untrained. Ever. But it is concerning if the ATF is trying to, institutionally, install a 'combat' mindset when it comes to their duties to protect and serve civilians of all walks of life.

Congress should be asking what they mean by "Combat" abilities or capabilities. Why was that word used. What doctrines or policies are encouraging that kind of language? Is this just a word used by one stupid bureaucrat? Or is it a mindset pervasive in the ATF? And perhaps other agencies? And Congress should find out where and how this mindset is affecting the execution of duties of this entity which is really about collecting taxes and revenue. Not about combat. Not historically. Not now. And, Constitutionally, not ever.

Sirhr

 

[craigos]

the thing is i heard they got spoken to -- issue is post Jan . when Biden is in - they will come for more.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

the thing is i heard they got spoken to -- issue is post Jan . when Biden is in - they will come for more.

No doubt there are some at the atf who eagerly await the biden admin and what all kinds of dictates they can cast down on everyone. When I saw police arresting people for not wearing a mask, and giving tickets out FOR GOING TO CHURCH!!!! I knew the fight was coming soon.

I always sort of thought to myself " if they ever did try to make a hard grab for our guns, they'd have to have the local police's cooperation, and that isn't likely happen... after I saw the maskless arrested and the church goers ticketed and cars towed, I knew the cops certainly would go along with it if told to do so.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

They are gearing up for another front

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2020/12/24/ghost-guns-litigation/

 

[The D]

Lol, “the proposed guidance was not a regulation”. You lying sacks of shit. It’s only not a regulation because you cunts got called out and hopefully shamed mercilessly

 

[LawnMM]

But LE is NOT training for combat. It is training for a worst-case scenario and if 'combat' erupts, it's probably because every procedure and protocol to 'protect and serve' was violated or because someone screwed up royally.

I have no love for the ATF but saying LE has no use for combat ability... bridge too far.

Whose fault are active shooters? What procedure or protocol failure brings those about? I'd describe it as combat, trying to kill somebody before they can kill even more people at a mall, kids at a school, etc.

Sure seems like combat to me but then I'm not a veteran. I'll ask some combat veteran friends, also LE, what they think

 

[The D]

They are gearing up for another front

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2020/12/24/ghost-guns-litigation/

Whoo, some of the comments below that article...

 

[W54/XM-388]

No doubt there are some at the atf who eagerly await the biden admin and what all kinds of dictates they can cast down on everyone. When I saw police arresting people for not wearing a mask, and giving tickets out FOR GOING TO CHURCH!!!! I knew the fight was coming soon.

I always sort of thought to myself " if they ever did try to make a hard grab for our guns, they'd have to have the local police's cooperation, and that isn't likely happen... after I saw the maskless arrested and the church goers ticketed and cars towed, I knew the cops certainly would go along with it if told to do so.

It wasn't that many months ago, that when some of us would warn about the folly of expecting the police and military to disobey unconstitutional orders, we would get laughed and and people would tell us we were crazy and of course nobody would follow bad orders...

After people watched the police in America handcuffing and arresting Christians in the middle of their services for the crime of worshiping God instead of going to worship Mammon at Wal-Mart, Or watched the mayor of NYC lead his gestapo squad personally to raid Jewish religious services, or police arresting people trying to protect their lives, families, business and properties, so that mobs of arsonists, vandals, murderers and thieves could do their crimes in safety, or the police arresting small business owners for trying not to lose everything they worked their lives to build up, while helping the richest corporations in the world get even more wealthy, many of those nay-sayers are waking up to realize what history has always shown.

Read history, because we are quite possibly on the threshold of repeating some of the really bad times.

 

[Blutroop]

L

I have no love for the ATF but saying LE has no use for combat ability... bridge too far.

Whose fault are active shooters? What procedure or protocol failure brings those about? I'd describe it as combat, trying to kill somebody before they can kill even more people at a mall, kids at a school, etc.

Sure seems like combat to me but then I'm not a veteran. I'll ask some combat veteran friends, also LE, what they think

LEO can not and will not be combat soldiers.
The big difference is Americans have rights.
I could care less about your irrational fears of “active shooters”
When anyone attempts to side step the constitution they are open season to the real combat vets, patriots, Leo that honor the constitution.. you should take mark Twain’s advise.. better be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

It wasn't that many months ago, that when some of us would warn about the folly of expecting the police and military to disobey unconstitutional orders, we would get laughed and and people would tell us we were crazy and of course nobody would follow bad orders...

After people watched the police in America handcuffing and arresting Christians in the middle of their services for the crime of worshiping God instead of going to worship Mammon at Wal-Mart, Or watched the mayor of NYC lead his gestapo squad personally to raid Jewish religious services, or police arresting people trying to protect their lives, families, business and properties, so that mobs of arsonists, vandals, murderers and thieves could do their crimes in safety, or the police arresting small business owners for trying not to lose everything they worked their lives to build up, while helping the richest corporations in the world get even more wealthy, many of those nay-sayers are waking up to realize what history has always shown.

Read history, because we are quite possibly on the threshold of repeating some of the really bad times.

You are correct, there's lots of history of the police or military doing bad things under the "I was just following orders " excuse... and as we both stated, seeing good people arrested and prosecuted ect, for literally protecting their lives and livelihoods, was very shaking for many. Those sorts of things didn't happen where I live, nor did they happen in many a "red states" ect... Those same states, may even be the ones who resist some kind of gun grab or other unconstitutional order given from above...

So the "it won't happen here" attitude (which holds us back on so many fronts), does apply here.

The really concerning realization, that many have had or either have had reinforced, is that

IT DOESN'T HAVE TO HAPPEN HERE (in my state or town) to matter!!! If tyrants are allowed to do that type of thing in one area in this country, it's damning for us all! (That's not to say that I think "it couldn't " happen here, because I do!), but my point is that those of us in The Read States, have had an attitude that we can simply let the blue states be as crazy and unconstitutional as they choose, "just don't do it here" .... And it's bitten us all in the ass!

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I have no love for the ATF but saying LE has no use for combat ability... bridge too far.

Whose fault are active shooters? What procedure or protocol failure brings those about? I'd describe it as combat, trying to kill somebody before they can kill even more people at a mall, kids at a school, etc.

Sure seems like combat to me but then I'm not a veteran. I'll ask some combat veteran friends, also LE, what they think

I agree with you... and that is the “special circumstances and training, etc”’ that I referenced in my post.

But I would argue that being prepared for school shootings, mall shootings, church shootings, etc. is different from what seems to be alluded to in the letter. In addition, ATF is not a first-responder organization. Sure, in a big city with a big office, their agents might get called to an active scene, just like FBI swat responders in any major city might get called in an all-hands active shooting situation. But that is not their mission.

They seem to have/need the capability to execute high-risk warrants, arrests of armed or barricaded suspects, etc. As does any large LE organization. But, as I also mentioned, if those events turn into ‘combat’ it is because someone probably used improper methods, preparation was poor or something simply went wrong. Police operations should not devolve into combat. Can they in extreme cases? Sadly yes. But these are the anomalies and Inwould argue they are usually, in hindsight, easily avoidable. And they are most easily avoided if the approach problems does not begin with a “combat mindset,”’but with an approach that the primary goal is resolution that preserves and protects life.

The hardest part for an LE organization is that they may have to go from that one mindset of serve and protect to a ‘combat situation’ that is intense and deadly, in seconds. And be capable of handling what becomes de facto combat situations.

But Ultimately, a highly-trained and capable in LE response capability, even while many of the tactics and skills are parallel, is not the same as being trained (or thought-of or deployed) as combat soldiers.

I think we are very much on the same page, even if my above post didn’t capture the sentiments precisely enough. And the very fact we are debating the fine point... is precisely why folks who oversee the organization at Treasury, DoJ and Judiciary Committees should be asking for the same clear definitions and delineations that we are trying to understand.

Merry Christmas all!!

Sirhr

 

[MtnCreek]

Atf combat training:

 

[wilson1911]

 

[Blutroop]

How long are we the people gonna continue to let our constitution be trampled on like this? Too many people getting drug into court for 2a. They won’t stop until we are all criminals

 

[kwlazycarr]

For now...

Until next time

 

[hermosabeach]

Disagree 100%
They are playing chess

finish a large meal by starting at the edges...

Delete the fringe - 50 bmg, class 3, sbr- mags over 30

las long as we tolerate any mag ban and it’s proved OK... then you reduce what is OK

how many gun overs have a mag over 30 rounds? 3%


Delete / ban things that will not upset 90% of duck and deer hunters.


ATF will read comments and redraft bullshit rules

Why bullshit? Because ATF could set up shop in top 5 violent cities and federally prosecute all violent firearm crimes. Los Angeles drops enhancements for illegal alien felon gang member who murdered with a gun.... ATF can charge him federally for all fed violations.

 

[Shootin Stuff]

The most problematic statement in that entire letter seems to have gone entirely unnoticed, e.g. “preserve our combat ability.”

This is the problem with much of domestic law enforcement, even many small town agencies. They think they’re a combat element and equip themselves as such. The only problem is, we citizens are the only “enemy” around.

Personally, I see a huge problem with this as it is the prevailing doctrine nationwide.

And "military bearing as a law enforcement agency".

Dafuq?