The ATF responds to Solvent Traps Made by Diversified Machine

[Choid]

They should refund the tax stamp dollars, but it actually isn't controversial to say that if you legally build something out of material that has been the subject of a prior crime, you are likely not going to get to keep that thing. It is also not surprising to hear that suppressor parts are restricted, especially if you've ever had to have a suppressor fixed.

People seem to think that the intent of the law and the intent of the actor are unimportant. People who think this way end up in bad situations because they do stupid things. Whether or not these laws should be laws, this application of them is exactly to be expected.

 

[AMGtuned]

I’m just surprised to find out this wasn’t actually an ATF sponsored and ran entrapment scheme like I assumed it was.

It partially was. Its in the indictment, all 16 pages

 

[AMGtuned]

Yep, I was in Category 3 and dealt with this over the summer. Had to show evidence of destruction to my local ATF agent and he had it removed from the registry. I'll give the guy credit for being helpful about the process and he was sympathetic to the absurd nature of the whole thing. I'm out a few hundred bucks and the whole thing is frustrating to say the least.

You're the absolute first, I've heard say this.

 

[AMGtuned]

Lots of conclusions being made here.

That video sucks. My opinion, and that guy holds the law degree, not me.

Saw it last week. Why is he so concerned with group 2? The group that knowingly committed a felony? How about the American citizens, who FOLLOWED THE LAW, being turned into criminals?

There was definitely more to this story than the video. And the clarification of WHAT is maybe could be a silencer part, sold be DM, has yet to be made. The indictment has been released, and another member on another forum shared it with us. Lots of the information coincides with situations that have come up over the last year or 2. In my opinion, they (more than just Chris involved) were straying far off the legal lines.

 

[AMGtuned]

They confiscated his stamps. com account


Seriously.

 

[Choid]

There is a common misunderstanding of how the ATF functions. Many think the ATF is “legislating” or “making laws” without being a legislative body.

They are not.

What they ARE doing, and apparently have the power to do (or at least no legislativs body is stopping them, which is functionally equivalent) is literally REDEFINING words and meanings. This is even MORE dangerous in some ways and fraught with danger. It is entirely arbitrary and unpredictable. If you have absolute power to REDEFINE words and meanings contained in actual laws and legislature at will (in this case, the NFA), you become the sole arbiter of legal definition and how those definitions should be interpreted and applied.

If you pass a law saying marijuana is illegal, and you appoint me as the exclusive administrator and arbiter in enforcement of that law, then I take it upon myself to arbitrarily say any plant with green leaves is now defined as marijuana, you can figure out what happens from there.

This is what the ATF is and does. It doesn’t legislate. It just makes the legislation say whatever it wants it to say.

I'm reading literal US code and I can't figure out how they are changing words.

The term “Firearm Silencer” or “Firearm Muffler” means any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.
18 USC 921

So the only issue is whether the ATF is required to take DM at its word that these are really "solvent traps." That is patently silly. People act as if changing the name of something is really a way around the law. It's like saying "sorry officer, I didn't steal that, borrowing is legal and I am planning or returning it, so everything is cool."

 

[AMGtuned]

Steel pipe, and thread adapters have many uses; silencers being very low on that list.

While I'm on thread adapters...... thats a word they've used a few times so far. But its been said before that thread adapters are muzzle devices, not silencer parts. If "adapters" are classified as suppressor parts, how would you mount your favorite can to your new rifle? Or your old one?

Some of this is a silly mess

 

[AMGtuned]

I'm reading literal US code and I can't figure out how they are changing words.

The term “Firearm Silencer” or “Firearm Muffler” means any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.
18 USC 921

So the only issue is whether the ATF is required to take DM at its word that these are really "solvent traps." That is patently silly. People act as if changing the name of something is really a way around the law. It's like saying "sorry officer, I didn't steal that, borrowing is legal and I am planning or returning it, so everything is cool."

Let's not forget; a bullet has to pass through it, in order for it to be a "firearm silencer", and silence a gun shot. No bullet hole, no pew.

 

[Longshot231]

More confusing news. This guy isn’t the one that’s confused. The ATF is confused. These are updates 2 and 3.

@Blinks711 you are going to really be pissed after watching these videos.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

More confusing news. This guy isn’t the one that’s confused. The ATF is confused. These are updates 2 and 3.

@Blinks711 you are going to really be pissed after watching these videos.

There are more than three categories. There are people who purchased simple parts from DM that got the same letter. Everyone that ever did business with DM received the letter; even people that placed orders, and cancelled them before the product shipped received the letter. Not everyone bought a "solvent trap" per the video, DM was also selling universal endcaps that can be used in legal F4 cans for muzzle device changes.

 

[Maxduty]

After watching the last video, my only question is how in the hell can a Federal office have differing answers depending on the state you live in? Their rules are across the board. Black and white (should be). What goes in one place goes in all.

 

[roostercogburn98]

So how long before they go after all the plumbing stores for “constructive intent”

 

[Blinks711]

More confusing news. This guy isn’t the one that’s confused. The ATF is confused. These are updates 2 and 3.

@Blinks711 you are going to really be pissed after watching these videos.

Yeah, it's a cluster to say the least. It was interesting as the interactions experienced in the video were much the same as mine as it took about 4 different agents between Ohio and Michigan field offices to give me a convoluted answer and thus the order to destroy. Am I upset about all of this? I don't care as much about the dollars or the can (It proved to be less than spectacular in quality, but that is a whole separate story), as I do about the complete lack of cohesion and direction from the various ATF agents and field offices. It seems as some of these guys run their own little fiefdoms and make off the cuff policy at will. Could I have fought this? Absolutely. Did I want to fight this? Nope and that is what makes me part of the bigger problem and why these haphazard policies succeed. It just wasn't worth the hassle and continued frustration on my part and I believe that is what they throw these judgements out there because most people will just shrug their shoulders and comply.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Send them an ingot of melted aluminum back with the letter.

 

[whatsupdoc]

If I shoot through a pillow could I be charged with possession of a unregistered suppressor.

 

[96coal449]

most people will just shrug their shoulders and comply

This is why we face dealing with a 3 letter fed org from the start. Compliance of unconstitutional acts. They cannot lay claim to law and be constitutional. If the gun owners did not comply to this color of law, the ATF simply would not exist. We all know what the US organic constitution states, and what those enforcers of the corporate constitution want.

For the record, I do live behind enemy lines. I am one of the men who just wanted to be left alone. FWIW, I have never had desire to hang a can off the end of a barrel

 

[mewillis]

FWIW, I have never had desire to hang a can off the end of a barrel

You truly don't know what your missing.......... It is a PITA dealing with ATF/NFA but it's worth it in my opinion for a much more enjoyable experience.
and your ears will thank you over and over.

 

[WannabeWoodsman]

I'm not surprised at all.. also how hard is it to get a whisper pickle?

 

[Longshot231]

I'm not surprised at all.. also how hard is it to get a whisper pickle?

It isn't that difficult. It is the lengthy wait that sucks. If you can apply for an auto loan or mortgage, you can fill out a Form 1 or 4 or an eForm 1 just as easily.

Mistakes happen just like anything else. The major set back even if you do everything correctly is waiting.

I also don't like giving them $200 for, what is basically, a muffler. Hunting with a suppressed rifle or pistol is much more enjoyable than you can ever realize.

 

[TurboTrout]

So whats the point in even trying to comply with the unconstitutional BS of the ATF if they are going to come after you anyways?

Seems safer just doing it all “under the cover of darkness”

 

[BigJimFish]

Sooooo.... What your saying is that "solvent traps" were a...

You guys can't really be surprised by this. They came for your bump stocks, now their coming for your "solvent traps" and next they will come for your bump triggers or whatever people are calling those things now. They are not going to pass any new laws, hell, they haven't even been able to pass a simple budget since Bush, and it doesn't really matter what the current law says. At this point, congress is not really a functional part of the governance structure of the land and the other 2, or 3+ (if you want to consider the entrenched carrier bureaucracies as their own branch(s)) branches of government are basically making the decisions by fiat as they go. It is what it is, "solvent traps" are not legal anymore and I'm sure none of us remember the ATF's tacit endorsement of them by collecting tax stamps on them.

 

[Center Mass]

After several phone calls I was able to get in contact with an agent (whom I won't identify) at a field office ( that I won't disclose) who is handling key parts of this situation. I have interacted with the ATF many times and as usual, the low level/street level guys are easy to talk to and are very receptive. This agent was no different.

We spoke at length about this whole cluster fuck. On the record, he told me exactly what they first video above stated. Off the record however, he was very sympathetic to the situation was understood how bad this looks. I told him that they already unfavorable ATF is rapidly going down the same road as the FBI did and that making criminals out of law abiding citizens was very corrosive to the agency and the country. Soon, no one will trust or cooperate with them and their job will become much more dangerous. He agreed completely, off the record of course. He said the every agent in his office and even up to the division level is against this but all they can do relay their concerns up the chain of command. He said this is solely being driven by the highest brass and the lawyers at the top.

In addition, the agent also told me that he alone has fielded many phone calls from attorneys that are representing numerous clients, as many as 30, against this massive over reach. His off the record advise was to wait and see where this thing goes. I personally believe it will end up in court sooner that later and the ATF will lose yet again.

CM

 

[Choid]

Can somebody explain to me the alternate use for pre dimpled baffles?

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Can somebody explain to me the alternate use for pre dimpled baffles?

Earings, windchimes, freeze plugs, door stops, etc.

 

[AMGtuned]

Can somebody explain to me the alternate use for pre dimpled baffles?

Baffles have holes in them, and are silencer parts. Were talking about solvent cups here.

Maybe the parting tool was a smidgen off center; and they are not dimpled, that is simply a machining mark.

 

[AMGtuned]

Sooooo.... What your saying is that "solvent traps" were a...

View attachment 7796549
You guys can't really be surprised by this. They came for your bump stocks, now their coming for your "solvent traps" and next they will come for your bump triggers or whatever people are calling those things now. They are not going to pass any new laws, hell, they haven't even been able to pass a simple budget since Bush, and it doesn't really matter what the current law says. At this point, congress is not really a functional part of the governance structure of the land and the other 2, or 3+ (if you want to consider the entrenched carrier bureaucracies as their own branch(s)) branches of government are basically making the decisions by fiat as they go. It is what it is, "solvent traps" are not legal anymore and I'm sure none of us remember the ATF's tacit endorsement of them by collecting tax stamps on them.

Can you please show me the law stating that "solvent traps" are illegal? Really, because it would be great information for a lot of people nationwide.

Taking and reclassification of parts and definitions, is just a bonus here. The charges show that they've got Chris and 2 others, on other things; and cups, spacers, end caps, adapters, tubes, etc., aren't really what's going on here.

 

[AMGtuned]

You guys; this isnt just about the recipients of this bullshit letter. If things play out with this reinterpretation nonsense, it affects more than half this board.

I know that doesn't sound like it makes sense. But; it will change simple things that are taken for granted every day.

Did you do a F4 for that SiCo Bravo you bought for 3 or 4 of your cans? No? Well thats an "adapter" used solely in suppressor assembly, so.......

 

[6.5 Shaggy]

I haven’t read all the posts and this may be repetitive, so forgive me. Just my educated guess, but more than likely the true issue is that DM didn’t register as a ‘silencer parts maker’ or whatever license and pay the assigned federal excise tax. That put them on the radar and thus made ‘their’ parts illegal. That’s why the ATF isn’t sending letters to the customers of all trap mfgs. It’s more of a taxation problem than parts problem. The form 1 customers did get screwed, category 1 did too a little but cat 2 committed a felony and got lucky if the ATF didn’t get real nasty about it. This happened to some buddies a few years ago with a different company selling traps on Amazon that also sold AR auto trigger kits. 3 buddies bought traps and converted without a form 1. ATF tracked them from purchasing records and showed up at their houses and politely but sternly asked for the cans. All 3 complied and the agents handed them pamphlets on how to purchase cans legally and scolded them mildly reminding it could be a felony if it happens again.

 

[BigJimFish]

They came for your bump stocks, now their coming for your "solvent traps" and next they will come for your bump triggers or whatever people are calling those things now.

Whups, I was apparently a day late in my prognostications, they are already coming for your bump triggers. Well, they are nothing if not predictable.

BREAKING: ATF to Start Confiscating These Today!

ATF is instructing its agents to start seizing forced reset triggers from possessors on the grounds that they are machine guns.

www.gunsamerica.com

 

[Choid]

Baffles have holes in them, and are silencer parts. Were talking about solvent cups here.

Maybe the parting tool was a smidgen off center; and they are not dimpled, that is simply a machining mark.

While it may be a dumb law, this action by the ATF literally follows the letter of the law, to the letter, including for people with forms one. If you think that any legal system, no matter how perfect, is built upon arguments like the one you are feebly trying to make, then you are likely to be complaining a lot, and not finding much success with it.

Imagine if you got caught with a kilo of cocaine, and you said to the officer, "no sir these aren't recreational drugs, these are animal anesthetics that I need for my horses." It's basically the same argument you are making, and nobody would believe that bullshit either.

 

[Choid]

I haven’t read all the posts and this may be repetitive, so forgive me. Just my educated guess, but more than likely the true issue is that DM didn’t register as a ‘silencer parts maker’ or whatever license and pay the assigned federal excise tax. That put them on the radar and thus made ‘their’ parts illegal. That’s why the ATF isn’t sending letters to the customers of all trap mfgs. It’s more of a taxation problem than parts problem. The form 1 customers did get screwed, category 1 did too a little but cat 2 committed a felony and got lucky if the ATF didn’t get real nasty about it. This happened to some buddies a few years ago with a different company selling traps on Amazon that also sold AR auto trigger kits. 3 buddies bought traps and converted without a form 1. ATF tracked them from purchasing records and showed up at their houses and politely but sternly asked for the cans. All 3 complied and the agents handed them pamphlets on how to purchase cans legally and scolded them mildly reminding it could be a felony if it happens again.

The form one customers really didn't get screwed except by the fact they didn't read the US code. The law on suppressor parts is very clear, this is to be expected. It's pretty clear that while you can certainly build a suppressor on a form one, you cannot buy suppressor parts to build a suppressor. Buying suppressor parts requires a form 4. Similarly, you can build a house with a permit, but you cannot build it out of something you cannot possess.

I do think the whole thing is a dumb law, but complaining because you didn't follow the dumb law is not a fruitful exercise.

 

[TxWelder35]

While it may be a dumb law, this action by the ATF literally follows the letter of the law, to the letter, including for people with forms one. If you think that any legal system, no matter how perfect, is built upon arguments like the one you are feebly trying to make, then you are likely to be complaining a lot, and not finding much success with it.

Imagine if you got caught with a kilo of cocaine, and you said to the officer, "no sir these aren't recreational drugs, these are animal anesthetics that I need for my horses." It's basically the same argument you are making, and nobody would believe that bullshit either.

Nothing they sold was a suppressor part. Baffles have holes in them. Nothing they sold could you use as a suppressor without machining the parts. That’s the problem here. They better tell Home Depot that the pipe the sell, and anywhere that’s sells freeze plugs that they are in possession of suppressor parts.

They followed zero letter of the law. The only people here that have violated the law are people that have drilled baffles without a form 1.

 

[E. Bryant]

The form one customers really didn't get screwed except by the fact they didn't read the US code. The law on suppressor parts is very clear, this is to be expected. It's pretty clear that while you can certainly build a suppressor on a form one, you cannot buy suppressor parts to build a suppressor. Buying suppressor parts requires a form 4. Similarly, you can build a house with a permit, but you cannot build it out of something you cannot possess.

I do think the whole thing is a dumb law, but complaining because you didn't follow the dumb law is not a fruitful exercise.

No, the law is not at all clear. In fact, it says the following:

"The terms “firearm silencer” and “firearm muffler” mean any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication."

The very last clause is the key to this conversation; unless you can prove that a given component has no other use, then it's legal (assuming that it's not already illegal for some other random purpose, such as fabricating a still).

Assuming that any of these cases make it to court, I would like to see how the ATF explains its own treatment of Quietbore, because that situation is wholely inconsistent with how it is now acting.

 

[Choid]

It's amazing you guys think that playing word games is how the law works. But good luck with it, anyway. BTW, there is a reason the lawyer in question said that he was advising people not to buy these before this all happened. It is because he read the law and understood what it meant. Arguably, the form one user is in the most culpable group because he clearly bought them with intent, even if he did also attempt to "do the right thing" which, had he read the law, he would have known was to not go the DM route.

 

[TxWelder35]

It's amazing you guys think that playing word games is how the law works. But good luck with it, anyway. BTW, there is a reason the lawyer in question said that he was advising people not to buy these before this all happened. It is because he read the law and understood what it meant. Arguably, the form one user is in the most culpable group because he clearly bought them with intent, even if he did also attempt to "do the right thing" which, had he read the law, he would have known was to not go the DM route.

We aren’t the ones word playing. That would be the ATF redefining terms whenever it is convenient for them, or they are trying to make a case.

Once again, nothing DM sold was a suppressor part nor could be used as such without significant modifications that alters the product. Under the exact same logic that is being applied right now, freeze plugs are suppressor parts.

People advice being “on the safe side” because the ATF is a rogue organization that changes definitions and interpretations on a whim.

 

[Choid]

We aren’t the ones word playing. That would be the ATF redefining terms whenever it is convenient for them, or they are trying to make a case.

Once again, nothing DM sold was a suppressor part nor could be used as such without significant modifications that alters the product. Under the exact same logic that is being applied right now, freeze plugs are suppressor parts.

People advice being “on the safe side” because the ATF is a rogue organization that changes definitions and interpretations on a whim.

Well, by the logic of your argument, if it were sold as a suppressor kit it would have been fine because somebody still could have used it as a salt container. It's also the same logic that says if you put your coffee on top of your bomb, then it becomes a coffee table, or if you identify as a woman, well, it doesn't matter that you have a dick.

It's literally just saying, well if we call it what it isn't, and blur our eyes really hard, then it is what we say.

 

[E. Bryant]

It's amazing you guys think that playing word games is how the law works. But good luck with it, anyway. BTW, there is a reason the lawyer in question said that he was advising people not to buy these before this all happened. It is because he read the law and understood what it meant. Arguably, the form one user is in the most culpable group because he clearly bought them with intent, even if he did also attempt to "do the right thing" which, had he read the law, he would have known was to not go the DM route.

How exactly should the Form 1 community "do the right thing"? Please make sure your proposal is consistent with the precedent established by the ATF's approach to Quietbore.

 

[TxWelder35]

Well, by the logic of your argument, if it were sold as a suppressor kit it would have been fine because somebody still could have used it as a salt container. It's also the same logic that says if you put your coffee on top of your bomb, then it becomes a coffee table, or if you identify as a woman, well, it doesn't matter that you have a dick.

Nothing that DM sold had holes drilled in it. They are not and can not be used as a suppressor without modifying the product.

An AR-15 lower with a 3rd hole jig next to it is not a machine gun. It requires the modification.

 

[TurboTrout]

Sooooo.... What your saying is that "solvent traps" were a...

View attachment 7796549
You guys can't really be surprised by this. They came for your bump stocks, now their coming for your "solvent traps" and next they will come for your bump triggers or whatever people are calling those things now. They are not going to pass any new laws, hell, they haven't even been able to pass a simple budget since Bush, and it doesn't really matter what the current law says. At this point, congress is not really a functional part of the governance structure of the land and the other 2, or 3+ (if you want to consider the entrenched carrier bureaucracies as their own branch(s)) branches of government are basically making the decisions by fiat as they go. It is what it is, "solvent traps" are not legal anymore and I'm sure none of us remember the ATF's tacit endorsement of them by collecting tax stamps on them.

Actually per the constitution and federalist papers the ATF isn’t legal.

 

[TurboTrout]

How exactly should the Form 1 community "do the right thing"? Please make sure your proposal is consistent with the precedent established by the ATF's approach to Quietbore.

Form 1s, that’s the real trap

 

[TxWelder35]

How exactly should the Form 1 community "do the right thing"? Please make sure your proposal is consistent with the precedent established by the ATF's approach to Quietbore.

Only people that have full blown machine shops should be able to make a form 1 suppressor as long as you source certified non suppressor part billet metals

 

[rlsmith1]

While it may be a dumb law, this action by the ATF literally follows the letter of the law, to the letter, including for people with forms one. If you think that any legal system, no matter how perfect, is built upon arguments like the one you are feebly trying to make, then you are likely to be complaining a lot, and not finding much success with it.

Imagine if you got caught with a kilo of cocaine, and you said to the officer, "no sir these aren't recreational drugs, these are animal anesthetics that I need for my horses." It's basically the same argument you are making, and nobody would believe that bullshit either.

I think a better analogy would be someone being stopped with a load of coco leaves. Is it cocaine? Nope but it sure looks sketchy. However, there are other legitimate uses of coco leaves like you pointed out.

The people who filed a Form 1 are getting bent over. Even giving them a refund on the $200 stamp is insane because the ATF said they were free to build that specific suppressor already.

If the ATF wants to consider these parts suppressor parts, I’d encourage them to assemble a trap, not drill any holes, screw the thing on a barrel and pull the trigger. Heck pull the trigger a few times just for good measure. They will understand it’s not a suppressor after that.

Other uses for solvent traps? How about the name? We’ve got bore guides so I don’t think a tool to collect solvent is a stretch.

Add in the inconsistency with quietbore and there are some consistency issues that need to be ironed out. If they truly want us to play by the rules, they need to be consistent. This feels like entrapment.

@Center Mass that's an interesting conversation and isn’t great to hear for a number of reasons. Thanks for taking the time to talk through it with them so someone has a good view of lowly criminals, I mean citizens.

 

[Choid]

How exactly should the Form 1 community "do the right thing"? Please make sure your proposal is consistent with the precedent established by the ATF's approach to Quietbore.

It doesn't matter what the ATF did with quietbore, no more than it matters if a prosecutor charges any other two different suspects differently. Precedent is established in courts, not by prosecutorial discretion.

I would suggest to the Form 1 community to follow the law or to take the risks that accompany not doing so.

 

[E. Bryant]

Only people that have full blown machine shops should be able to make a form 1 suppressor as long as you source certified non suppressor part billet metals

And since we're getting all wound up about the intentions of makers, you'd better have sourced the raw materials prior to having the mere thought of building a suppressor, or else that bar stock was a prohibited suppressor part the moment you picked it off the drops pile at your local metal supplier.

 

[Choid]

I think a better analogy would be someone being stopped with a load of coco leaves. Is it cocaine? Nope but it sure looks sketchy. However, there are other legitimate uses of coco leaves like you pointed out.

The people who filed a Form 1 are getting bent over. Even giving them a refund on the $200 stamp is insane because the ATF said they were free to build that specific suppressor already.

If the ATF wants to consider these parts suppressor parts, I’d encourage them to assemble a trap, not drill any holes, screw the thing on a barrel and pull the trigger. Heck pull the trigger a few times just for good measure. They will understand it’s not a suppressor after that.

Other uses for solvent traps? How about the name? We’ve got bore guides so I don’t think a tool to collect solvent is a stretch.

Add in the inconsistency with quietbore and there are some consistency issues that need to be ironed out. If they truly want us to play by the rules, they need to be consistent. This feels like entrapment.

@Center Mass that's an interesting conversation and isn’t great to hear for a number of reasons. Thanks for taking the time to talk through it with them so someone has a good view of lowly criminals, I mean citizens.

You are right. That is a better analogy. Even better yet is that it is illegal to bring coca leaves into the US, so you better have grown them at home, and since they are schedule 2, you should have documentation. Likewise, it is legal to build your form one at home, but not from a kit bought from Diversified Machine.

And again, the quietbore issue, and I admit I don't have the first idea what it is, only matters as precedent if it was adjudicated.

 

[mewillis]

As much as I think the ATF makes silly and unpopular rulings, which are just that and not actual law, they are the regulatory ie; taxing authority since 1934. You pay your $200 tax to the US Treasury FFS. Trying to call a, tube with baffles and end caps a "solvent trap" (what does that mean anyway, what are you solventing in a tube with baffles with and no holes??) and thinking the regulatory schmucks aren't going to react is stupid on the whole. Arguments on the trigger side ie; making them machine guns, doesn't really pass muster and I think they will lose. But buying parts for something you and anybody with a brain cell knows what they are, is equally naive. This is why the vaaaast majority of people buy legitimate silencers via form 4 transfers. If you do the math you aren't really saving money by going the route some have gone ie; form 1 scheme, unless you actually make one from scratch. The elephant in the room is going against big brother who has a large pile of money and plenty of minions to do their bidding, which leaves most people unable to counter their tyranny. Unless we seriously have a billionaire step up and go after this unlawful and unconstitutional attack on the citizens and the Second Amendment we are doomed to reap what we sow..........Elon, are you there??

 

[Choid]

As much as I think the ATF makes silly and unpopular rulings, which are just that and not actual law, they are the regulatory ie; taxing authority since 1934. You pay your $200 tax to the US Treasury FFS. Trying to call a, tube with baffles and end caps a "solvent trap" (what does that mean anyway, what are you solventing in a tube with baffles with and no holes??) and thinking the regulatory schmucks aren't going to react is stupid on the whole. Arguments on the trigger side ie; making them machine guns, doesn't really pass muster and I think they will lose. But buying parts for something you and anybody with a brain cell knows what they are, is equally naive. This is why the vaaaast majority of people buy legitimate silencers via form 4 transfers. If you do the math you aren't really saving money by going the route some have gone ie; form 1 scheme, unless you actually make one from scratch. The elephant in the room is going against big brother who has a large pile of money and plenty of minions to do their bidding, which leaves most people unable to counter their tyranny. Unless we seriously have a billionaire step up and go after this unlawful and unconstitutional attack on the citizens and the Second Amendment we are doomed to reap what we sow..........

This is exactly correct. It's not a question of it being good law, it is a question of it being obvious what is likely to happen when you try to skirt the law and miss.

 

[E. Bryant]

What laws are people trying to "skirt"? Everyone here is talking about "making" suppressors after filling out the proper Form 1, paying the "making" tax of $200/unit, and awaiting approval before engaging in any act of "making". No one here is talking about avoiding taxes by assembling a suppressor without a Form 1, or engaging in the "manufacture" of suppressors without the proper FFL and SOT, or claiming that the finished product isn't really a suppressor, or building something and then playing the mea culpa card and asking for forgiveness after the fact. I mean, this is the most compliant behavior I've seen in a hobbyist community (compare and contrast with, say, those who modify post-'67 automobiles).

People are frustrated not because they broke the law and got caught, but rather because they tried to follow the law and are now being told that wasn't good enough.

 

[Choid]

Which is why it is so stupid. Because the entire reason for doing so is to wait a little bit less for paperwork that shouldn't exist anyway. BUT, the law as written is pretty clear that without a form 4 or an SOT you can't buy "suppressor parts." If you think that unbored but formed and dimpled baffles are really maybe salt containers, then that is a hill you can fight on, but it likely isn't a winning one because law and linguistics are related but not the same.

Look, everybody who saw these solvent traps knew what they were, and 99% of people probably knew it was a sketchy affair. That's a clue.

 

[TxWelder35]

Form

Which is why it is so stupid. Because the entire reason for doing so is to wait a little bit less for paperwork that shouldn't exist anyway. BUT, the law as written is pretty clear that without a form 4 or an SOT you can't buy "suppressor parts." If you think that unbored but formed and dimpled baffles are really maybe salt containers, then that is a hill you can fight on, but it likely isn't a winning one because law and linguistics are related but not the same.

Look, everybody who saw these solvent traps knew what they were, and 99% of people probably knew it was a sketchy affair. That's a clue.

please tell me why owning a 3rd hole jig and a regular AR-15 lower together isn’t a machine gun.