The best bullet for AR

[Near miss]

Hello,

Can we discuss about what is absolutely the best bullet for AR use?
Because this is -slightly- subjective, by best I mean a bullet that:
-is seatable to a mag length (2.250 to 2.260)
-carries much energy on target
-deflects wind well
-does not drop much.
-more points if it has good terminal ballistics
-does not struggle in transonic area (I think most bullets designed today are stable and remain accurate?)

I have understood that TMK 77 (.202), 70gr VLD (.191), 77gr Scenar (.203) and 75gr VLD (.216) are good candidates for this (BCs are from Litz). These have good BCs and enough mass to carry energy. VLD's have their own tuning and while I did get decent grouping out of them, I chose the scenars because I can get boatloads of them and I did not have to go through any hassle to get them to shoot well, as I was quite fresh with reloading when trying the VLDs.

Are my guesses any close? After all, the mag length and 223 casing size limit the selection the most. You could certainly go higher BC but that comes in form of bullet length that then reduces the powder charge. I could probably add 0.6gr more to my case and thus get maybe 2750 to 2770 but that is not smart. The problem is not only space to contain powder in but also the space to burn that powder inside..

 

[jakelly]

I think that’s the 70gr Berger.

 

[diggler1833]

I'm sure you're already aware of this, but...

1. Not all target bullets make good hunting bullets. So your external and terminal ballistics top choices might not overlap very well.

2. The Mk 262 round has quite the following for good reason, and would be my first choice for a balance (maybe substitute the 77gr TMK depending on how your rifle shoots it).

I know for a fact that the 77gr SMK gets pretty wild when it goes transonic. We started shooting them at 1K yards on Range 4 at Quantico back in 2001, and had to switch to the 80gr SMK.

Not sure how much you're looking to use these for hunting, but...

After having three coyotes that failed to expire immediately from boiler room shots with the 69gr SMK, I've given up on trying to use match bullets for critter control. The coyotes all died...but I found two of them quite a bit later, and they had made it ~200 yards from where they were hit. I now use the (discontinued) 64gr Gold Dot factory ammo as I have a ton of it. It isn't quite MOA in my ranch rifle, but a solid boiler room shot has them dead within a couple yards.

Best of luck.

 

[Assholenumberone]

I'm sure you're already aware of this, but...

1. Not all target bullets make good hunting bullets. So your external and terminal ballistics top choices might not overlap very well.

2. The Mk 262 round has quite the following for good reason, and would be my first choice for a balance (maybe substitute the 77gr TMK depending on how your rifle shoots it).

I know for a fact that the 77gr SMK gets pretty wild when it goes transonic. We started shooting them at 1K yards on Range 4 at Quantico back in 2001, and had to switch to the 80gr SMK.

Not sure how much you're looking to use these for hunting, but...

After having three coyotes that failed to expire immediately from boiler room shots with the 69gr SMK, I've given up on trying to use match bullets for critter control. The coyotes all died...but I found two of them quite a bit later, and they had made it ~200 yards from where they were hit. I now use the (discontinued) 64gr Gold Dot factory ammo as I have a ton of it. It isn't quite MOA in my ranch rifle, but a solid boiler room shot has them dead within a couple yards.

Best of luck.

This.^^^^^^Personally I use a speer 70gr sp for mammals < 3oo lbs and a 68gr bthp for paper. Never one for the other purpose.

 

[jakelly]

There’s a 75 page thread on rokslide about the terminal performance of the 77 TMK.

 

[diggler1833]

There’s a 75 page thread on rokslide about the terminal performance of the 77 TMK.

I bet that 77gr TMK probably does a good job on smaller things like coyotes. I will probably have to try some someday. I still have ~1K of those 64gr Gold Dots though, and ~2,800 Mk 318 Mod 0 bullets to use first. Amazingly, my .223 trainer shoots those SOST bullets into about a minute as well.

I'm certainly suffering on long range precision with either, but both of those loads shoot well enough to take rabbit-size game to 250. Terminal performance on hogs well over 200lbs has been quite good too...although still not as good as larger calibers

Unfortunately for me, I'm often dealing with animals that are too heavy to risk blowing up a target or varmint bullet on a shoulder. My situation is unique, and I understand that. Terminal performance trumps long range accuracy for me, but I have other rifles/loads for punching paper or ringing steel.

 

[Near miss]

I think I am on the same page.
For sure I know the OTMs in general make bad hunting ammo. I have read about the TMK and while it was very convincing, I believe when I see it. But I'd be ready to test it.

That said, the terminal ballistic side was mostly meant with 2 legged creatures in mind. Particularly because the Mk 262 seems to be working well.
But it is very good to bring hunting into discussion too and as far as I can tell, 77TMK takes that cake.

For the record, I shot the 77gr scenars out to 950 meters in 30F and they worked incredibly well. Got 5 or 6 hits on mansize target without a miss after getting the wind/drop sorted out with 6 to 8 rounds. This was with a pause in half way as I had to get my friend to testify the rest.

What round does the Mk 262 use?

 

[diggler1833]

I think I am on the same page.
For sure I know the OTMs in general make bad hunting ammo. I have read about the TMK and while it was very convincing, I believe when I see it. But I'd be ready to test it.

That said, the terminal ballistic side was mostly meant with 2 legged creatures in mind. Particularly because the Mk 262 seems to be working well.
But it is very good to bring hunting into discussion too and as far as I can tell, 77TMK takes that cake.

For the record, I shot the 77gr scenars out to 950 meters in 30F and they worked incredibly well. Got 5 or 6 hits on mansize target without a miss after getting the wind/drop sorted out with 6 to 8 rounds. This was with a pause in half way as I had to get my friend to testify the rest.

What round does the Mk 262 use?

77gr SMK. The difference between the Mod 0/1 versions of the Mk 262 is the cannelure (present on the Mod 1).

 

[99mpower]

Mod 0 and Mod 1 have some slight speed differences too. I've chrono'd large number of both MK262 Mod 0 and Mod 1 as its what we get issued for the Navy Marksmanship Team. Not as consistent as I would like, but you can get it REALLY REALLY good, if you dump out 50 rds, evenly seperate the powder into 50 lots, and reseat the bullets after dumping powder. (Cheap way to fix the inconsistencies found in manufactured MK262)

I dont have my data book with me on deployment, but I vaguely remember SDs in the low teens, and ES as high as 26-28 for MK262 measured over 10-20rds.

MK262 uses the 77gn SMK. Great round, and works well for both purposes if necessary. I'm aware of SOF guys using MK262 in the field, as the accuracy performance, and terminal ballistics are exceptional.

 

[Near miss]

I tried to get some ballistic gel information out of internet but I fear that most gels used are not calibrated, I assume making a quick spreadsheet of them would not play out well.

It seems that OTMs have bigger problem exploding into medium than poking a hole. (Speaking of ballistic gel testing)

That said, from largely subjective standpoint I got by viewing videos,
77SMKs seemed to better hold weight % than 69gr SMK, which did not hold together at all.

77TMK did very well even at low velocity of 1650fps (12" penetration, wound cavity 4-5inch wide, 7-8" deep from 0.5" to 1" of surface)

I do not know the practical differences between 77gr SMK and Scenar. I bet they are not replicas so both need their own results tested.

 

[TexasHaag]

.308 Winchester
168 ELD-M
44gr BL-C(2)
Alpha Brass
Trim 2.01
OAL 2.74

6.5 Creedmoor
140gr ELD-M
40gr Staball 6.5
Alpha Brass
Trim 1.91
OAL 2.74

 

[timk311]

The Hornady 75bthp is one of my favorite AR15 bullets. Good at realistic “long range” for a 5.56 AR and a very good hunting round (even though it’s not listed as a hunting bullet) for ethical hunting distances and better on game than the mk 262 77smk.
I think it’s one of the best all around bullets for the AR.
For specific heavy duty things at closer ranges like deer sized game, hogs, barriers, car windshields (hey you never know) then a bonded bullet or TSX

 

[LRDD]

I'm with timk311. The 75 bthp is hard to beat for the price and the performance you get with it in an AR.

 

[Near miss]

Good add. It brings decent performance with lesser price. I just checked and it is in stock, although not enough to really warrant testing.
31 per 100, 280 per 1k. Very good price.

Any opinions on Nosler RDF? The 70gr Nosler seems to be very close to Berger 70gr.

 

[308pirate]

What round does the Mk 262 use?

It uses the Mk 262 round

If you mean what bullet is in the Mk 262 round, it's the Sierra 77 grain Match King

 

[Near miss]

It uses the Mk 262 round

If you mean what bullet is in the Mk 262 round, it's the Sierra 77 grain Match King

You are damn meticulous for a pirate.
But thanks for confirming.

 

[Near miss]

Wanted to add that I tested shooting a 1.75L / half gallon milk carton filled with water at 313m / 346yds with a scenar 5g / 77gr.

Out of 16", 2710fps.
Velocity at target was 2000fps.
939 Joules / 692 ftlbs.

The bullet still disintegrated, it turned inside out. I managed to recover the jacket right behind the carton in the berm, but it seems the lead is in small bits, could not see any fragments on the ground but the jacket has them bonded to outer and inner side. The jacket remainings weighted 1.65g / 26gr.

I expected for the round to just zip through, but indeed it shows that GB545 has potential. Now I am thinking if I should make some ballistic gel.

 

[mikeshaw2]

I'm with timk311. The 75 bthp is hard to beat for the price and the performance you get with it in an AR.

Just don't do what I did and make the n00b mistake of thinking 75gr ELDMs fit in an AR

The bthp is a different bullet than the ELDM

HTH

M

 

[Ndbowhunter]

File down the tip a bit, open the front of the mag up on asc’s

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Any opinions on Nosler RDF? The 70gr Nosler seems to be very close to Berger 70gr.

Just say no. Save yourself the frustration.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Just don't do what I did and make the n00b mistake of thinking 75gr ELDMs fit in an AR

Depends on how bad you want it to work.

 

[Skg_Mre_Lght]

I use 77 TMK handloads over 8208 for everything except for plinking. My wife took a a Speed Goat at 496 yards with her 18" AR when the TMKs first came out. It worked, but we found the bullet on the offside hide of the antelope, and it had reached the end of its performance envelope.

They are great medium range, medium game bullets out of an AR.

For targets, they start petering out at 800 yards for me.

 

[Alaska]

For a man target 77 SMk and IMR 8208
For a 4 legged target Barnes TSX 62gr/70gr and TAC

 

[sig2009]

Simple answer. The one your barrel likes.

 

[Rainn]

Just look for the one suitable with your barrel.

 

[Dough300]

60 grain vmax, and 77 grain tmk. The vmax is stupid accurate out to 300 yards and does a number on coyotes and Prarie dogs. The tmk will reliably take deer sized game, and is great for target shooting out to and past 600.

 

[jLorenzo]

For what its worth, I have heard that part of the mk262s success is due to the bullet coming apart at the cannelure inside the target. I would think a smk with a cannelure would do better than one without as far as terminal performance goes.

 

[Alaska]

With the weight of 77gr the Sierra MK on soft human targets regardless it’s devastating out to 600 yards @ 2750 fps in 18”. For Afghanistan and Iraq probably the best ammo ever used in 5.56. To bad they didn’t mass issue it to troops.
Very Effective one stop shots !
Duplicate MK 262 Mod 1
IMR 8208 @ 23.8 2750 in 18”
You will find better accuracy at 23.2-23.3 area
CCI 41
LC Brass
77 MK

Mk262 Mod 0 used a Nosler 77gr because Sierra could not get ramped up to meet demand then when Sierra did it became the MK 262 mod 1 they added a crimping grove to the 77gr MK.

 

[Near miss]

Again great input!

As I have now battled with the Hornady 75s and had horrible time getting them to shoot, devastating my confidence as a reloader, shooter and a person, I start to fall to the category of find a bullet that shoots and cannot argue against tmk and smk. I have not loaded them as they cost about as much as scenars here but tmks would be very interesting to try, match ammo with smk has done really good.

Vmax also sure hits well on targets inside 300m, I have understood some IPSC style shooters prefer them for 50-300m stages.

I am still a scenar fan but as said, when considering energy, terminal ballistics, wind bucking and precision, particularly the tmk does seem like an excellent choice.

I wonder how easy it is to get the tmk to group well on average?

I think I will buy berger 70vlds to test with N540 as smk, tmk are hard to get and expensive.

 

[Molon]

I wonder how easy it is to get the tmk to group well on average?

I presume that you’re still referring to loading for a semi-automatic AR-15.

Many people have reported that the 77 grain Tipped MatchKing is more finicky than the standard 77 grain MatchKing. That being said, it’s still capable of producing excellent precision when fired from an AR-15 and naturally the higher ballistic coefficient is beneficial at longer ranges.

The 10-shot group pictured below shows one of my hand-loads for the 77 grain tipped MatchKing fired from one of my precision semi-automatic AR-15s. The group has an extreme spread of 0.65 MOA.

....

 

[Molon]

I think I will buy berger 70 vlds to test with N540

You need to do yourself a favor and stop trying to pigeonhole every bullet into N540. There are better choices of powder for the 70 grain VLD.

The 10-shot group pictured below was fired from one of my precision AR-15s after just a bare minimum work-up with the 70 grain VLD, using VihtaVuori N135. The group has an extreme spread of 0.70 MOA.

.....

 

[Molon]

Just don't do what I did and make the n00b mistake of thinking 75gr ELDMs fit in an AR The bthp is a different bullet than the ELDM

Yup.

And, don't shoot the 75 grain A-MAX from a barrel with a 1:9" twist . . .

.....

 

[mikeshaw2]

Yup.

And, don't shoot the 75 grain A-MAX from a barrel with a 1:9" twist . . .

.....

that looks like an 'interesting' experience

M

 

[Near miss]

You need to do yourself a favor and stop trying to pigeonhole every bullet into N540. There are better choices of powder for the 70 grain VLD.

You don't understand, it is the N140 on roids!!
I did test 70VLDs with N140 and it showed promising results.

I did winter testing of 25.15 to 25.8gr (too much for summer) and it did OK. My testing setup was to walk on a field, bury into 2 feet of snow with glass ice underneath and somehow build a position there without the bullet entering into snow after exiting the muzzle.

I also tested 23.9 to 24.4gr and while the single groups show pretty good (compared to Hornady, magnificent) I could not keep them clustered unlike the higher charges. My money is on that shooting was done poorer than usually, when I started reloading I really tensed up while shooting the reloads and sometimes this clearly shows. I usually do better at 300 than 100 because of this. This was probably shot on icy rocks, which was my main place to shoot.

 

[Haney]

For a man target 77 SMk and IMR 8208
For a 4 legged target Barnes TSX 62gr/70gr and TAC

Mow many men have you shot with a 77 SMK ? Any photos ?

 

[Near miss]

Mow many men have you shot with a 77 SMK ? Any photos ?

Well, mow do you go wrong with it? Since it has proven to be effective.

 

[Alaska]

Mow many men have you shot with a 77 SMK ? Any photos ?

This was the MK 262 was the preferred ammo issued with the MK 12. The ammo was made by Black hills. It was first issued to Seals and then Marine Snipers and later SF and eventually down to Army unit snipers. Due to no body armor on the enemy the 77gr MK was very effective on the battlefield during its time compared to the M855 ammo. Many one shot one kill were recorded using the MK 262 ammo. I would say the most lethal 5.56 ammo used in combat. The effectiveness led to a total reform and redesign of military ammo for the 5.56 in the M855A1 and MK318

 

[Ndbowhunter]

I use 77 TMK handloads over 8208 for everything except for plinking. My wife took a a Speed Goat at 496 yards with her 18" AR when the TMKs first came out. It worked, but we found the bullet on the offside hide of the antelope, and it had reached the end of its performance envelope.

They are great medium range, medium game bullets out of an AR.

For targets, they start petering out at 800 yards for me.

I remember you posting that story.

Thanks in retrospect

killed quite a few sage brush critters with similar combo after reading that thread.

 

[wvfarrier]

For me, the 75 grain Gold Dot is magic both for target and hunting

 

[Molon]

For me, the 75 grain Gold Dot is magic both for target and hunting

The 75 grain Gold Dot is one of the most accurate factory loaded barrier-blind loads that I've tested.

......

 

[wvfarrier]

The 75 grain Gold Dot is one of the most accurate factory loaded barrier-blind loads that I've tested.

......

I like it for high shoulder shots on deer. Knocks the soul right out of them

 

[Near miss]

They only have 0.148 G7 BC but they are somewhat cheap and quite effective. Seem accurate too.
I'd say they are similar to TSXBT 70gr with .158 BC, petaling through a long wound channel. Except the TSX 70gr does quite poorly.

 

[Doc68]

I'm using the 75gr Hornady BTHP in my AR loads. Use 24.5gr of Tac powder and a CCI 450 primers with LC brass.

Getting 2765 out of a 16" barrel. Have shot it into Ballistic gel and great results. .75-1.0 MOA all day long and twice on Sunday.

Loaded at 2.25" and light crimp.

Using a 1-10 power scope.

Doc

 

[pmclaine]

8208XBR and 77s are magic.

I'd take the ability to "hit it" over the reality it may have "less ability to hit” but does great things internally if you do hit it.

 

[supercorndogs]

Basically anything from 35g-80g if you can fit it in the mag. For varmints I like any quality bullet I can find on sale from 40g-60g. I mostly shoot heavier bullets out of a long barreled bolt action. The 53 V-max is one of my perennial favorites, and I buy bunch whenever I see them on sale. Nosler also has a 53 ballistic tip with a pretty goos BC for that class of bullet. I have had a 250 box of them for about 3 years now, but I haven't messed with them yet. I keep getting other stuff to mess with, and keep using what I know works in my 223. I shoterned the OAL on my 53 v-max bolt gun load recently to fit it in an AR mag also. All mine shoot pretty good with 8208 or Varget with light or heavy bullets.

 

[supercorndogs]

Just say no. Save yourself the frustration.

This has been my experience with the 70 RDF also. I tried it my Valkyrie and 22-250 so far with pretty dismal results. I was measuring some rounds BTO one day and got the impression the ones I have may need measured and sorted. Its not likely I will get that board.

 

[Molon]

I shoterned the OAL on my 53 v-max bolt gun load recently to fit it in an AR mag also. All mine shoot pretty good with 8208 or Varget with light or heavy bullets.

VihtaVuori N133 also works extremely well with the 53 V-MAX in AR-15s.

....