The EPA needs to go.

[supercorndogs]

GMO is simply genetically modified organism. Plants, specifically corn and soy, we modified by pesticide companies one of two primary ways. First, as Monsanto did, was gene insertion to induce tolerance to a given pesticide. Secondly, like the old American Cyanamid company did, was to plant a field of a crop, spray with a herbicide that crop was not tolerant to and harvest the seeds of the plants that survived the application. Plant a large enough field and there would always be some plants that survived. Keep planting those seeds and cross pollination would increase the naturally occurring tolerance to the pesticide being applied. Both methods had the same outcome at the end of the day.

@deersniper is correct in his explanation of the approach to using Roundup. Once a plant is resistant applying more pesticide does not overcome that resistance. Then a process called Integrated Weed Management should be applied to combat and minimize resistance.

GMO does not mean specifically inducing resistance to RoundUp. Years ago DuPont produced GMO corn that contained more Vitamin A to help malnutrition induced blindness in Africa. GMO is simply a genetic modification to yield a desired outcome.

I think some mix up the Round up ready crops, with the BT line of GMO crops. I.E crops designed to poisonous to their pest.

While the reasons and the order of operation are incorrect in that post. The fact that remains, is round up ready crops allow for glyphosate to be sprayed on food. Before if you had weeds in your hay, peas, soy beans, corn..... spraying everything was simply not an option.

The microbes that we form a symbiosis with in our gut, our micro biome, don't seem to like the stuff. This is where science runs out and feelings start, because we don't know much about our own micro biome. Until not long ago, most bacteria and fungus was thought to " just be there" and serve no real purpose. We are learning this is very wrong, and some things we are doing are having unintended side effects, due to our lack of understanding of how some natural systems work.

The BT crops would seem to me to pose a threat to our own gut flora. Again though, a feeling. I am not professing to know.

I wonder if organic matters as much as staying away from processed garbage food, but I have become an Organo-nazi.

 

[Mwalex]

I think some mix up the Round up ready crops, with the BT line of GMO crops. I.E crops designed to poisonous to their pest.

While the reasons and the order of operation are incorrect in that post. The fact that remains, is round up ready crops allow for glyphosate to be sprayed on food. Before if you had weeds in your hay, peas, soy beans, corn..... spraying everything was simply not an option.

The microbes that we form a symbiosis with in our gut, our micro biome, don't seem to like the stuff. This is where science runs out and feelings start, because we don't know much about our own micro biome. Until not long ago, most bacteria and fungus was thought to " just be there" and serve no real purpose. We are learning this is very wrong, and some things we are doing are having unintended side effects, due to our lack of understanding of how some natural systems work.

The BT crops would seem to me to pose a threat to our own gut flora. Again though, a feeling. I am not professing to know.

I wonder if organic matters as much as staying away from processed garbage food, but I have become an Organo-nazi.

I can see your perspective but not sure the concern is warranted. Glyphosate is not readily metabolized in the body and because of that uptake into a metabolic pathway is not a concern. Also, if you look at what kills the flora in your gut (antibiotics) the structures are completely different than that of glyphosate.

I would not worry about BT being an issue either. https://www.entsoc.org/sites/default/files/files/Science-Policy/2018/ESA-Factsheet-Bt.pdf

All concerns of this kind are warranted but most can be explained away as long as we keep an open mind. As far as being an "Organo-nazi" is concerned, to each his own, but a word of caution. Organic food is not chemical free.

 

[deersniper]

I think some mix up the Round up ready crops, with the BT line of GMO crops. I.E crops designed to poisonous to their pest.

While the reasons and the order of operation are incorrect in that post. The fact that remains, is round up ready crops allow for glyphosate to be sprayed on food. Before if you had weeds in your hay, peas, soy beans, corn..... spraying everything was simply not an option.

The microbes that we form a symbiosis with in our gut, our micro biome, don't seem to like the stuff. This is where science runs out and feelings start, because we don't know much about our own micro biome. Until not long ago, most bacteria and fungus was thought to " just be there" and serve no real purpose. We are learning this is very wrong, and some things we are doing are having unintended side effects, due to our lack of understanding of how some natural systems work.

The BT crops would seem to me to pose a threat to our own gut flora. Again though, a feeling. I am not professing to know.

I wonder if organic matters as much as staying away from processed garbage food, but I have become an Organo-nazi.

You are beyond ignorant.

You can spray many many chemicals over the top of non gmo corn/soybeans/alfalfa etc.
And lol at the idea of not spraying anything. Mass starvation is what you're asking for.

And as far at BT I would rather have that than dousing the plant in insecticide.


You all should look at the country of origin of all the vegetables/etc you buy and then see what chemicals that country is allowed to use.
The U.S. Has banned a ton of chemicals but we manufacture them and send them to South America etc and they use them and send the food back to us.

The oligharchy banned country of origin labeling because we have a cheap food policy. all these American Ag programs everyone hates aren't for the farmer. They are for the American consumer.

 

[deersniper]

I can see your perspective but not sure the concern is warranted. Glyphosate is not readily metabolized in the body and because of that uptake into a metabolic pathway is not a concern. Also, if you look at what kills the flora in your gut (antibiotics) the structures are completely different than that of glyphosate.

I would not worry about BT being an issue either. https://www.entsoc.org/sites/default/files/files/Science-Policy/2018/ESA-Factsheet-Bt.pdf

All concerns of this kind are warranted but most can be explained away as long as we keep an open mind. As far as being an "Organo-nazi" is concerned, to each his own, but a word of caution. Organic food is not chemical free.

Piles of "organic" food come from countries that are corrupt from top to bottom. I guarantee a lot of that is sprayed at least with pres. And there have been a bunch of farms caught in the U.S. falsifying organic certification. So good luck with all that.

 

[pmclaine]

I think some mix up the Round up ready crops, with the BT line of GMO crops. I.E crops designed to poisonous to their pest.

While the reasons and the order of operation are incorrect in that post. The fact that remains, is round up ready crops allow for glyphosate to be sprayed on food. Before if you had weeds in your hay, peas, soy beans, corn..... spraying everything was simply not an option.

The microbes that we form a symbiosis with in our gut, our micro biome, don't seem to like the stuff. This is where science runs out and feelings start, because we don't know much about our own micro biome. Until not long ago, most bacteria and fungus was thought to " just be there" and serve no real purpose. We are learning this is very wrong, and some things we are doing are having unintended side effects, due to our lack of understanding of how some natural systems work.

The BT crops would seem to me to pose a threat to our own gut flora. Again though, a feeling. I am not professing to know.

I wonder if organic matters as much as staying away from processed garbage food, but I have become an Organo-nazi.

That micro biome has a lot to do with our immune systems.

My daughter had a number of ear aches/strep issues when young.

When I was a kid we treated ear aches with drops.

Now its amoxicyllin.

How does a developing immune system deal with multiple doses of amoxicyllin wiping out its micro biome?

She was diagnosed with Type I diabetes at 5.

All sorts of factors.....

We are exposed to less dirt due to our household use of antibacterials, we over use anti biotics, a lot of what is in food isnt food......

Who is to say which factor causes the greatest harm?

Im drinking cider vinegar these days with the mother, fasting and eating stuff that only has one or vtwo ingredients vand I can actually pronounce them.

Feeling great, wish the fams would get on board.

 

[supercorndogs]

You can find research that swings wildly both ways. A study can be done on the soil and come to the same kind of different results. Bacteria is always there. But different bacteria serves different purposes, live in different environments, and are susceptible to different things. So to say it is or isn't hurting anything in our guts. We need to know whats in there and what purpose it serves. Like our soil this science is inits infancy.

Glyphosate and Roundup negatively affect gut bacteria | The Detox Project

Update: A groundbreaking study published in May 2018 by Italian and U.S. scientists showed that exposures to commonly used Glyphosate-Based Herbicides, at doses considered safe…

detoxproject.org

Glyphosate and the Gut Microbiome: Another Bad Argument Annihilated

Introduction: Glyphosate is a broad spectrum herbicide that was first introduced by the Monsanto company in the 1970s under the brand name Roundup. The already popular product grew even more popula…

www.crediblehulk.org

 

[Mwalex]

You can find research that swings wildly both ways. A study can be done on the soil and come to the same kind of different results. Bacteria is always there. But different bacteria serves different purposes, live in different environments, and are susceptible to different things. So to say it is or isn't hurting anything in our guts. We need to know whats in there and what purpose it serves. Like our soil this science is inits infancy.

Glyphosate and Roundup negatively affect gut bacteria | The Detox Project

Update: A groundbreaking study published in May 2018 by Italian and U.S. scientists showed that exposures to commonly used Glyphosate-Based Herbicides, at doses considered safe…

detoxproject.org

Glyphosate and the Gut Microbiome: Another Bad Argument Annihilated

Introduction: Glyphosate is a broad spectrum herbicide that was first introduced by the Monsanto company in the 1970s under the brand name Roundup. The already popular product grew even more popula…

www.crediblehulk.org

And that right there is an example of political narratives possibly effecting the results. Bias is the enemy of good science.

 

[supercorndogs]

You are beyond ignorant.

You can spray many many chemicals over the top of non gmo corn/soybeans/alfalfa etc.
And lol at the idea of not spraying anything. Mass starvation is what you're asking for.

And as far at BT I would rather have that than dousing the plant in insecticide.


You all should look at the country of origin of all the vegetables/etc you buy and then see what chemicals that country is allowed to use.
The U.S. Has banned a ton of chemicals but we manufacture them and send them to South America etc and they use them and send the food back to us.

The oligharchy banned country of origin labeling because we have a cheap food policy. all these American Ag programs everyone hates aren't for the farmer. They are for the American consumer.

Did I say you can't spray chemicals? No. What herbicides do you spray on standing crops?

Your argument that glyphosate is not bad because you spray worse shit is stupid, but we all understand what your argument is, so feel free quit reiterating.

I can give the the state and county of origin for a lot of my food.

 

[Mwalex]

I think some mix up the Round up ready crops, with the BT line of GMO crops. I.E crops designed to poisonous to their pest.

While the reasons and the order of operation are incorrect in that post. The fact that remains, is round up ready crops allow for glyphosate to be sprayed on food. Before if you had weeds in your hay, peas, soy beans, corn..... spraying everything was simply not an option.

The microbes that we form a symbiosis with in our gut, our micro biome, don't seem to like the stuff. This is where science runs out and feelings start, because we don't know much about our own micro biome. Until not long ago, most bacteria and fungus was thought to " just be there" and serve no real purpose. We are learning this is very wrong, and some things we are doing are having unintended side effects, due to our lack of understanding of how some natural systems work.

The BT crops would seem to me to pose a threat to our own gut flora. Again though, a feeling. I am not professing to know.

I wonder if organic matters as much as staying away from processed garbage food, but I have become an Organo-nazi.

Also, two of the things that have the most pronounced effect on the health of your microbiome - sugar and heliobacter pylori, which most people carry in their gut. One of the misconceptions about pesticide intake in the diet is the actual amount in the food. Most of the compounds or their metabolites are measures in ppm (part per million) or ppb (parts per billion). If you look at the ACTUAL impact on the human body it pails in comparison for most people stacked against the alcohol, fast food, antiobiotics and sugar that is eaten on a daily basis. The ONLY reasons things like RoundUp gets traction is because most people are not smart enough to understand the science, cannot separate their narrative from the science, "pesticide" induces and emotional response and the lawyers can get paid.

If people really gave a rats ass about intake and the effects on the human body then things like antibiotics/steroids in foods, neurotransmitter inhibitors in water and the gross over prescription of antibiotics would be the real focus.

 

[supercorndogs]

And that right there is an example of political narratives possibly effecting the results. Bias is the enemy of good science.

Both sides are biased. So how do you listen to either with confidence? You choose the one that aligns with your political ideology? I choose the one that said quit spraying un-natural bull shit on my food. Simple as I said. A feeling, no need for debate. Both sides tout flawed science in the others opinion. Science is dead, it has long since become an orthodoxy. It has began dividing into churches now. Its a scary world we like to pretend to understand.

 

[Mwalex]

Both sides are biased. So how do you listen to either with confidence? You choose the one that aligns with your political ideology? I choose the one that said quit spraying un-natural bull shit on my food. Simple as I said. A feeling, no need for debate. Both sides tout flawed science in the others opinion. Science is dead, it has long since become an orthodoxy. It has began dividing into churches now. Its a scary world we like to pretend to understand.

A person that wants to real answer to the question will do their homework and remove the bias from the process. Other than that it is politics and the discussion is a waste of time.

"Quit spraying un-natural bull shit on my food" is funny because people have no idea what that means in the grand scheme of things BUT I can appreciate the perspective.

Science is only dead when people are to dumb to understand it, which is definately the direction we are headed. One of the reasons I love this board is we can have these discussions like adults.

 

[deersniper]

Did I say you can't spray chemicals? No. What herbicides do you spray on standing crops?

Your argument that glyphosate is not bad because you spray worse shit is stupid, but we all understand what your argument is, so feel free quit reiterating.

I can give the the state and county of origin for a lot of my food.

Um to list a few status, Volta, dicamba, 24d, pretty much all insecticides, select, atrazine , poast, Thats just the tip of the iceberg. People have been spraying over the top of crops since spraying was a thing.

You don't know what you don't know

Im with you on spraying over the top of mature grain. Ban that. That mainly only happens in Canada though. 99.9% of RU is sprayed way before maturity or reproductive stages. So most is sprayed either pre planting or when the crop is small. It's not a systemic chemical.

 

[Mwalex]

Um to list a few status, Volta, dicamba, 24d, pretty much all insecticides, select, atrazine , poast, Thats just the tip of the iceberg. People have been spraying over the top of crops since spraying was a thing.

You don't know what you don't know

Im with you on spraying over the top of mature grain. Ban that. That mainly only happens in Canada though. 99.9% of RU is sprayed way before maturity or reproductive stages. So most is sprayed either pre planting or when the crop is small. It's not a systemic chemical.

A friend mentioned a study where high levels of glyphosate was being found in beer. It turned out that farmers were spraying over the top of the mature grains in order to be able to harvest earlier. I would guess that this might be an off-label application and that is why glyphosate was found in beer.

 

[deersniper]

I'm pretty sure that is on label. They do that in cooler regions so they can harvest sooner.

 

[supercorndogs]

Um to list a few status, Volta, dicamba, 24d, pretty much all insecticides, select, atrazine , poast, Thats just the tip of the iceberg. People have been spraying over the top of crops since spraying was a thing.

You don't know what you don't know

Im with you on spraying over the top of mature grain. Ban that. That mainly only happens in Canada though. 99.9% of RU is sprayed way before maturity or reproductive stages. So most is sprayed either pre planting or when the crop is small. It's not a systemic chemical.

Ok, you can use some shit for broad leaf and broad leaf perennials on grain crops. 2-4-d is terrible but it wont hurt most grasses. So ok, you named three herbicides that can be sprayed over grain that aren't glyphosate. Thanks. Doesn't change shit.

You have no idea what I know, and this is not a broad enough conversation to try to explain it to you. Even if it was, you would not listen, and I would not waste my time. You use ignorance as a shield and project it on others.

 

[deersniper]

Lol at your smug ignorance and projection


You were the one happily ignorant about any post applications of herbicides/insecticides before roundup tolerant groups were developed

I named herbicides that kill grass as well as ones that kill broad leafs. You dont know what you don't know.

 

[Mwalex]

Ok, you can use some shit for broad leaf and broad leaf perennials on grain crops. 2-4-d is terrible but it wont hurt most grasses. So ok, you named three herbicides that can be sprayed over grain that aren't glyphosate. Thanks. Doesn't change shit.

You have no idea what I know, and this is not a broad enough conversation to try to explain it to you. Even if it was, you would not listen, and I would not waste my time. You use ignorance as a shield and project it on others.

There is a major push to modify crops to be tolerant to 2,4D and dicamba as a way to fight glyphosate resistance. 2,4D does have a major problem with volatility that might or might not be resolved.

 

[supercorndogs]

A person that wants to real answer to the question will do their homework and remove the bias from the process. Other than that it is politics and the discussion is a waste of time.

"Quit spraying un-natural bull shit on my food" is funny because people have no idea what that means in the grand scheme of things BUT I can appreciate the perspective.

Science is only dead when people are to dumb to understand it, which is definately the direction we are headed. One of the reasons I love this board is we can have these discussions like adults.

Yep, you can go look at everyones research. "their" research based on the information provided by supposedly un-biased people on both sides. With completely different conclusions. If you can't see holes in the research from big ag, you are biased.

Intake rates for instance. All of the studies on intake rates I saw were based on short term trials. I remember seeing 2 weeks often. Big fuckin whoop, it better take fuckin bunch to kill you in 2 weeks if its "safe."

"Quit spraying un-natural bull shit on my food" is funny because people have no idea what that means in the grand scheme of things BUT I can appreciate the perspective...... Its funny you would say that because its pretty simple, and common knowledge really some circles. But it leads me into my next thought.

You like Deersniper, have no idea what I know, what I do, what I have studied. But you will both presume I know nothing based on a differing opinion on whether glyphosate is good to eat. Now I am supposed to think you looked at both sides research with an unbiased eye. .

You feel like its safe. I feel its not. Why? Because science doesn't know. Yet there is a bunch of snide bull shit flowing in this thread for some reason. Like you two have the answers.

Seems those toting science, don't know what they don't know. Science is barley learning about our gut flora, but you two have it all figured out. and if anyone argues, you will tout the "science."

The worst part is the weed killers are a band aide to a symptom of us degrading our soils with tilling, fertilizer, herbicides and pesticides. Its pretty amazing times to learn how little we actually know about the world. We are really starting to see some of the long term negative side effects of the "chemical revolution." And starting to understand them. Some will always refuse to understand. Its their right.

 

[supercorndogs]

There is a major push to modify crops to be tolerant to 2,4D and dicamba as a way to fight glyphosate resistance. 2,4D does have a major problem with volatility that might or might not be resolved.

That is not what I said at all. He listed herbicides that can be sprayed over crops. Three that don't really hurt grass, so yes I can see how they would be sprayed over crops corn, wheat, rye. One I assume that targets grass. Not broad spectrum herbicides.

You guys are trying to extrapolate things that simply aren't there. Please stop. You guys are off to arguing against things I didnt even say.

 

[Mwalex]

That is not what I said at all. He listed herbicides that can be sprayed over crops. Those three don't really hurt grass, so yes I can see how they would be sprayed over crops corn, wheat, rye.

You guys are trying to extrapolate things that simply aren't there. Please stop.

Wait a fucking minute. I was simply adding to your comment concerning 2,4D. I did not extrapolate anything and was just trying to extend the conversation. You have an issue with @deersniper that is your thing not mine. With your response I am out of the coversation.

 

[deersniper]

"The worst part is the weed killers are a band aide to a symptom of us degrading our soils with tilling, fertilizer, herbicides and pesticides. Its pretty amazing times to learn how little we actually know about the world. We are really starting to see some of the long term negative side effects of the "chemical revolution." And starting to understand them. Some will always refuse to understand. Its their right."

HFS. Lmfao. Ok @HippyCornDog

You are a retart for sure. Join the rest of the people pushing for mass starvation.

I've seen so many of your kind. Pushing for organic on a mass scale. Yet they can't do it on a half acre. You have no idea of the scale and science of food production.

Go push for more community gardens and other commie unworkable bs. You are ignorant behind all recognition.

Lime and fertilizer/manure really degrades soil

Thank you for a good laugh. Still lol

 

[supercorndogs]

Wait a fucking minute. I was simply adding to your comment concerning 2,4D. I did not extrapolate anything and was just trying to extend the conversation. You have an issue with @deersniper that is your thing not mine. With your response I am out of the coversation.

I am sorry. I read that comment as "that is a major push" as though i was reaching for straws with an idea there. Not "There is a major push, which IMO another band aide that will cause another problem.

I am sorry if I mis read your post snide. Accusing people who tend to believe a lot of the science coming out of the big chemical companies is biased of being stupid is not fair, and i took it as another shot over the bow.

 

[Mwalex]

I am sorry. I read that comment as "that is a major push" as though i was reaching for straws with an idea there. Not "There is a major push, which IMO another band aide that will cause another problem.

I am sorry if I mis read your post snide. Accusing people who tend to believe a lot of the science coming out of the big chemical companies is biased of being stupid is not fair, and i took it as another shot over the bow.

It's not a problem. It is easy to take things on web boards in ways they were not meant.

 

[Erno86]

Why does it feel like I'm posting in a chemical engineering symposium or something?

 

[supercorndogs]

"The worst part is the weed killers are a band aide to a symptom of us degrading our soils with tilling, fertilizer, herbicides and pesticides. Its pretty amazing times to learn how little we actually know about the world. We are really starting to see some of the long term negative side effects of the "chemical revolution." And starting to understand them. Some will always refuse to understand. Its their right."

HFS. Lmfao. Ok @HippyCornDog

You are a retart for sure. Join the rest of the people pushing for mass starvation.

I've seen so many of your kind. Pushing for organic on a mass scale. Yet they can't do it on a half acre. You have no idea of the scale and science of food production.

Go push for more community gardens and other commie unworkable bs. You are ignorant behind all recognition.

Lime and fertilizer/manure really degrades soil

Thank you for a good laugh. Still lol

Please, please, please. Try to learn something. For once in your life, shut your mouth and open your ears.

 

[supercorndogs]

Why does it feel like I'm posting in a chemical engineering symposium or something?

No one is talking to you Emo boy.

@deersniper I think you meant retard. If not please explain to me what a retart is? Science don't know that one either...

 

[deersniper]

Why don't you get off the computer and go out side and learn something.

I do. You watch a video of some guy that gets half the yield I do. If everyone did that food would be 5x the cost and there would be a lot less protein in people's diets.

Today we support Chem China. What is the last thing you grew, besides pot?

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Both sides are biased. So how do you listen to either with confidence? You choose the one that aligns with your political ideology? I choose the one that said quit spraying un-natural bull shit on my food. Simple as I said. A feeling, no need for debate. Both sides tout flawed science in the others opinion. Science is dead, it has long since become an orthodoxy. It has began dividing into churches now. Its a scary world we like to pretend to understand.

I'm glad you have acknowledged the real problem.
You honestly cannot trust "the studies", mainly because all studies are funded by someone with a motive.

I agree spraying Roundup "directly" on food isn't a good idea. We need to use a lot of common sense but that doesn't exist anymore.

It wasn't 3 months ago I was being treated to the "you're an alien" look because I was waxing eloquent about why kids are allergic to everything today. When I was a kid we played outside, we we're exposed to the elements. We rode bikes and got cuts in the dirt. We weren't prescribed antibiotics for everything, actually we rarely had anything wrong with us. We ingested a lot of dirt and "nature". You never heard about people being "allergic" to anything.

Do you know anyone who acts like monosodium glutamate is deadly? Do you know why that is retarded thinking?

 

[Long Range 338]

Growing up surrounded by farming and ranching, I agree with the original premise that the EPA has grown into a large beauracracy that is out of touch with the people it is supposed to protect and has in fact become an oppressor of sorts. Under the Obummer admin it was wielded as a political weapon just as other agencies were as well. It has its place and needs to be put back there.

Farmers and ranchers for the most part are good stewards of the land as it is in their best interest to get the best production from their resources.

I've felt the "organic" thing was a waste of time but my thoughts on this are changing. 80% of the population is now insulin resistant (ask me how I know) and diabetes is becoming a huge worldwide problem. All of this comes back to the comment that a lot of what is in our food is not food. Now that I am paying much closer attention to what I am ingesting, it is alarming how difficult it is to try to control it. The only way to know for sure what is in your food is to grow it and prepare it yourself. I'm not much of a gardener so I guess that makes me more of a hunter-gatherer..... I better go do some pre hunt scouting so that I can handle the protein part of this equation!

 

[ArmyJerry]

the whole administrative state needs to go, they are an existential threat to the republic,