The Everyday Sniper Podcast 122 Caylen talks Safety

[Lowlight]

Had Caylen on tonight to do an Everyday Sniper Podcast

Great discussion the entire episode

 

[Mr Flannel]

Another great podcast episode. Really worth listening to.

 

[Sapper524]

ND comment here ...

So I think there needs to be a wider definition of round accountability. Consider guys who get a match DQ for a ND from a but of wobble and miss by 8 feet right. Or a even worse ND that is 60 yards down range in the dirt, while in a safe direction but not intentional. Next, consider the "forgot to dial/zero turret" OOPS! So you just shot a Long range stage and didn't dial down. At the next stage you launch it 10 mils high for one or more rounds.until you figure it out. I have done it, everyone has, don't even try to say you haven't ...

So how is the guy that "ND" 10 feet right or 100m down range different? How many DQs have you seen for forgetting to zero your turret? I haven't seen one? In the grand scheme of round accountability down range I see the forget to dial mistake being way higher in the WTF scale than a bad wobble shot that is 10 ft off.

Now, where does that take us in the comp setting? The 120 rule has to become a standard. Break the 120 or designated range fan and you're done. This area needs to be seriously tightened up.

From the Shooter position I have seen it and been muzzled by the stage to the left or right a ton. In the RO chair on a dynamicovemt stage I have looked down a lot of barrels....

Breaking the 120 rule should be way more of a focus than a ND down range due to a wobble.

ND, trigger control, round accountability is huge. I am not trying to downplay those factors, not at all. I think the 120 should be first so if the other happens it's safe. A ND down range can be a warming offense ONCE. Breaking the 120 with a mag in on the clock is Match DQ no question!

Edit for clarification ...
I'm saying 120 for the square ranges. When you have another stage 25 yards to your left and right. We have been to the field matches with epic 180 or more fileds of fire out on a rock outcropping. (Man I wish Granite Creek was still a thing!) Situation dictates of course.

 

[Lowlight]

It's range dependent @Sapper524

Some ranges have bigger safety fans than others, if a guy launches one over the berm at a square range because they left their dope on the rifle, that is a DQ.

Field matches with miles of safety are a different story, but if you are on one of these places with less than 100 acres of land, it can very well be an important issue.

it's up that particular MD to decide what is safe vs what is not.

We have a huge variety in locations, one size may not fit all

 

[Sapper524]

@Lowlight , I get that. Every range is different. How can you match DQ a guy that misses by 10 feet and not a forget to dial? So not one person forgot to dial at the PRS Finale? I'm not looking to start drama with this. I just think a standard need s to be establiahed. In the realm of round accountability what is acceptable in the current competition setting?

 

[Lowlight]

easy, you look at the results vs the reasoning,

You are trying to weigh the reason for the miss... IE: I slipped Off a Prop and sent a shot 10ft off, vs I did not dial my dope and sent the round 10ft off.

The main difference is the Range Officer, can he see the see the difference or understand what the results were.

Round accountability can end your day in a heartbeat, compromising on it should not be an option. Why do you think a ton of ranges, especially in Europe but here too have catches above the range to make sure no rounds go out of the facility. They have dams in place so if you shoot HIGH they catch the round.

In a lot of ways a skip or shot sent high over a berm is worse than a shot sent to the left or right into the berm.

 

[Lowlight]

It's an enforcement tool, it has to be a deterrent.

If you feel the given ND is acceptable or minor, it needs to be a Stage DQ at least. Then we come back to the Insurance question.

We sign waivers, but no waiver is gonna cover a match or series if someone is hurt. If Shooter A has an issue, and you let it go with a warning, and then Shooter A hurts someone, the insurance is gonna say it's YOUR Fault. Shooter A demonstrated a problem and you allowed it to progress. The waivers you signed are out the window, see you in court.

education is key, you have to train everyone to be safe, the more matches, the more shooters, the more stages shot, the more important safety becomes.

 

[Sapper524]

I agree with both of those post. So what rule can be put in place to define round accountability for the NRL, RTC, PRS, XYZ to provide a standard? All of your terrain, range, MD reference I agree with. All of that taken into consideration, where do you draw the line? Just putting it as MD discretion, from the League standpoint,. Leaves it to open.

 

[Lowlight]

It's not hard,

Other sports have these rules, even ones that work inside square ranges with berms in 3 directions. The only difficulty I see is shooting over a target, because of the perception of that from an inexperienced observers point of view might appear farther over the top than it actually is.

As it stands most decisions are left to the MD as the Series does not really get involved in the running of a match only in the management of the scores. I personally think it is a mistake, the series should also manage the shooters too as competitors in their given series.

But if you really wanted to tackle safety on a broad scale you can do it with very little effort.

How about a 10-yard rule, any round impacting +/- 10 yards away from the plate is a stoppage and Stage DQ. Too much, too little, look at the practical application of the rule on a few different ranges, pick a big square range, a small square range and a field course and see what it looks like visually.

Seems like your point is to leave everything alone and just let guys do whatever until something happens that gives the entire industry a black eye.

I mean a quick look 3GUN Nation has rules laid out pretty detailed I am sure they evolved over time, but still look at few that might apply

Long Guns: When stipulated in the WSB the long gun MUST be shouldered from the strong side and fired from the strong hand only. The support hand is allowed to contact the firearm provided it’s shouldered and fired from the support side and hand.

The capitalized "MUST" was theirs, not mine.

The Abandon rules have a bunch of DQ situations

3.1.2 All 180-Degree rules apply and the competitor must be safely behind the firearm while handling or reusing abandoned firearms.

Note 1: An abandoned firearm breaking the 180-Degree safety plane WILL result in a match DQ.

Note 2: All long guns must be inserted into designated grounding containers muzzle down or a match DQ WILL be issued.

There is no wiggle room, which is something the PR Crowd tries to avoid, they want their cake and eat it too

6.0 PENALTIES

Penalties are actions that equate to additional time added to the score based on the severity of the action.

If issued a DQ the competitor will not be allowed to continue in the event, will not be eligible for prizes and will receive no score.

Note 1: Safety violations will NOT be subject to arbitration.

We have a ton of other sports in this space to look at and learn from,

More 3GUN Rules

6.6.2 FIREARM CONTROL:

6.6.2.1 A competitor that drops or loses control of a firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, at any time after the "Make Ready" command and before the "Range is Clear" command is issued will receive a match DQ.

Note: This includes any firearm, loaded or unloaded, that falls to the ground after being abandoned or grounded during the COF.

Exception: Dropping an unloaded firearm before the "Make Ready" command or after the "Range is Clear" command will not result in disqualification provided the firearm is retrieved and verified safe by an Range Official only.

Example: Range Officials can include Match Director, Range Master and Range Officers.

Here is their ND Policy

6.6.4 NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE:

6.6.4.1 A negligent discharge that occurs while loading, reloading, unloading, while transitioning a long gun off or back to the shoulder, during malfunction and remedial action, clearing a firearm, transferring a firearm between hands, or during movement (except while shooting at legitimate targets) will result in a match DQ.

Definition: An unintentional shot (including a slam-fire) which travels over a backstop, a berm, or impacts anything deemed by the event organizers to be unsafe.

Note: In the case of a negligent discharge, the RO will stop the competitor as soon as safely possible.

Exception: A competitor who fires a shot at a legitimate target, which impacts and travels in an unsafe direction, through ricochet or bounce will NOT result in a match DQ.

I personally don't think a guy who misses by 3ft committed an ND but a guy who slips and misses by 3ft committed an ND. Which is really the only gray area and why you need a experienced RO.

Last set of quotes

6.6.5 180-DEGREE SAFETY PLANE:

6.6.5.1 A competitor that allows the muzzle of a firearm to break the 180-Degree Safety Plane will be issued a match DQ.

Exception: Except with a pistol while holstered, drawing and reholstering.

Definition: The 180-Degree safety plane is defined by an arc both horizontal and vertical that is created when the competitor is standing facing squarely downrange and parallel to, the designated backstop used on the bay to define the 180-Degree safety line on that particular stage.

Note: Any position where the muzzle points back towards the mouth of the bay past the designated 180-Degree safety line is a violation of this rule and considered an unsafe action.

6.6.6 SWEEPING:

6.6.6.1 A competitor that allows the muzzle of a firearm to sweep over or past one’s self including but not limited to their hands, fingers, legs and feet while moving, shooting or reloading a firearm will be issued a match DQ.

Definition: Sweeping is defined as, allowing the muzzle of the firearm (loaded or unloaded) to cross or cover any portion of a person or an object a person might reasonably be assumed to occupy, such as a car, portable toilet, or structure that is not a prop within the current stage.

6.6.7 TRIGGER DISCIPLINE:

6.6.7.1 The competitor’s fingers must be visibly outside the trigger guard when moving, loading, reloading or unloading during a COF and while clearing a malfunction. Failure to comply with any Verbal Warnings will result in a Match DQ.

Exception: When actually aiming or shooting at targets or while complying with the “Make Ready” command to lower the hammer of a pistol without a de-cocking lever.

Why safety is even a discussion is a bit beyond me when you look at how others break down the rules of a shooting game.

 

[Lowlight]

They also have a 9ft Rule in 3GUN.

I propose you can have a 5-yard rule, just work it backward,


Any round striking more than 5 yards from a target, not wind related is a stage DQ which covers not having a proper command of your sights.

 

[JC0352]

@Lowlight who is complaining about the audio on these call-in episodes? I mean the sound isn’t great, but it sounds like a phone call. I can hear everything being said, no problem. I guess some people are gonna complain no matter what...

Thanks for putting out this content!

 

[Lowlight]

I had a couple of complaints, one on the Podbean App that said both episode were not listenable

 

[JC0352]

I had a couple of complaints, one on the Podbean App that said both episode were not listenable

I’m using Podbean, too, since all the episodes are archived there. Both episodes are easy to hear.

 

[7mmSTW]

Possibly the best episode to date.

 

[skatz11]

Full disclosure I have yet to shoot a PRS style competition. Long range shooting is currently my relaxing shooting hobby. I’ve been competing in USPSA and 3gun for the last few years.

Consistent application of rules is critical for any shooting sport. I think USPSA sets a good example for both safety and clearly defining a course of fire with a written stage brief.

They have the competitive equity thing down. (After years of learning how shooters will game the system to win)

They also have a great range officer training program with different levels of RO certification. I would love to see that be the model for PRS style shooting moving forward.

 

[HogsLife]

I had a couple of complaints, one on the Podbean App that said both episode were not listenable

I had no issues hearing the conversation over the app.sounded perfectly fine to me. Great episode lot of good information.