The Evolution of Barrel Cleaning

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  • Oct 27, 2008
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    http://primalrights.com/library/articles/evolution-barrel-cleaning

    There are so many different methods, tools, and opinions on rifle barrel cleaning that it would be virtually impossible to even mention them all. Barrel cleaning is quite possibly one of the most argued topics in the precision rifle world. The only thing more impressive than the number of discussions that take place regarding this topic on a daily basis is the list of available cleaning solvents which all claim to be the best product in the world. While conversations regarding barrel cleaning are often divisive and heated, there is one thing that everyone can agree on: Everyone will need to clean their barrel at some point.

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    Good article. I never thought to use CLR for the carbon, but will definitely be trying it out next time, probably this weekend. I use the stuff for other things, just never considered it for barrel cleaning. m Also going to try it on my crown and can.
     
    Good article. I never thought to use CLR for the carbon, but will definitely be trying it out next time, probably this weekend. I use the stuff for other things, just never considered it for barrel cleaning. m Also going to try it on my crown and can.

    It works extraordinarily well on crown, brakes, and suppressors. Amazing stuff!
     
    The article mentions being thorough to get it all mopped up but I'll just reiterate and say that I'd be certain to get the CLR Pro out of the bore when done. It contains mild organic acids in water - see MSDS below. Since it's an aqueous acid, you want it all out. The Wipeout Accelerator will help to some degree. It contains Ethylene Glycol Monobutyl Ether, and that is sort of like a surfactant - it has a water-loving end of the molecule and an organic loving end of the molecule. Being paranoid about putting an aqueous acid in the bore, I'd run a patch of isopropyl alcohol (not rubbing alcohol) between the CRL and the Wipeout. The isopropanol will get most of the water and acid out and with it, any oxidized iron that might get generated by having acid in the bore. I keep a bottle of isopropanol in the reloading room because I use it as the last solvent any time I'm using a sonicating bath for the same reason - to get water off of metal.


    http://www.jelmar.com/proline/MSDS/CLRPRO.pdf
    http://www.sinclairintl.com/userdocs/MSDS/100-002-539_WIPE-OUT ACCELERATOR_default.pdf
    http://www.dow.com/assets/attachmen...lve/butyl_cellosolve/tds/butyl_cellosolve.pdf
     
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    You don't clean your barrels?

    I'm at close to 1700 rounds on 6.5 creedmoor. Shot a group in the .2's the other day. Velocity nor accuracy has not fallen off. I see no need to clean it. If it continues to shoot well and velocity holds up to the 2500 or mark then it will be retired as a practice barrel and I may clean it just to see what happens.

    Prior barrels have gone 1000+ without cleaning and shot just as good as they did after load dev. Am i saying don't ever clean your barrels? No, definitely not. Some barrels need it occasionally, some don't.

    I read your post and I enjoyed it. I think there is some quality information in there.
     
    The article mentions being thorough to get it all mopped up but I'll just reiterate and say that I'd be certain to get the CLR Pro out of the bore when done. It contains mild organic acids in water - see MSDS below. Since it's an aqueous acid, you want it all out. The Wipeout Accelerator will help to some degree. It contains Ethylene Glycol Monobutyl Ether, and that is sort of like a surfactant - it has a water-loving end of the molecule and an organic loving end of the molecule. Being paranoid about putting an aqueous acid in the bore, I'd run a patch of isopropyl alcohol (not rubbing alcohol) between the CRL and the Wipeout. The isopropanol will get most of the water and acid out and with it, any oxidized iron that might get generated by having acid in the bore. I keep a bottle of isopropanol in the reloading room because I use it as the last solvent any time I'm using a sonicating bath for the same reason - to get water off of metal.


    http://www.jelmar.com/proline/MSDS/CLRPRO.pdf
    http://www.sinclairintl.com/userdocs/MSDS/100-002-539_WIPE-OUT ACCELERATOR_default.pdf
    http://www.dow.com/assets/attachmen...lve/butyl_cellosolve/tds/butyl_cellosolve.pdf

    Very informative post! I don't see how it would be a bad thing to do as you suggested with alcohol.
     
    I don't understand why these bore cleaning Co's feel the need to use brass for jags, like that proshot VFG adaptor??? I wish these Co's would pick another material. I'd like to know it's the copper coming out of the barrel rather than from the jag.

    Good article and thanks for the CLR tip.

    BTW, my faucet was about ruined with hard water deposits so it started leaking. I used CLR which cleaned up the exterior of the faucet real nice. It got inside too, which temporarily stopped the leak, only problem was the CLR ate the innards after a few weeks, finishing it off, lol.

    Cool that triple bull knows the solution for next time.
     
    I'm at close to 1700 rounds on 6.5 creedmoor. Shot a group in the .2's the other day. Velocity nor accuracy has not fallen off. I see no need to clean it. If it continues to shoot well and velocity holds up to the 2500 or mark then it will be retired as a practice barrel and I may clean it just to see what happens.

    Prior barrels have gone 1000+ without cleaning and shot just as good as they did after load dev. Am i saying don't ever clean your barrels? No, definitely not. Some barrels need it occasionally, some don't.

    I read your post and I enjoyed it. I think there is some quality information in there.


    Pretty much my method also. I don't clean until accuracy drops. I've cleaned the first time at 500 to 1500 rounds. Even then I use bore scrub foam and a snake. Never put a rod in any of my rifles for the last 15 years and no issues with accuracy or life. On the other end of the spectrum is the guy that breaks in his barrel and is cleaning it every time he shoot it. I always cringe when I go to a public range and somebody is always "breaking in" their barrel with a recipe of several shots and furious scrubbing......repeat x number of times.

    Nice article Greg. Always enjoy reading your information posts.
     
    I don't understand why these bore cleaning Co's feel the need to use brass for jags, like that proshot VFG adaptor??? I wish these Co's would pick another material. I'd like to know it's the copper coming out of the barrel rather than from the jag.

    Good article and thanks for the CLR tip.

    BTW, my faucet was about ruined with hard water deposits so it started leaking. I used CLR which cleaned up the exterior of the faucet real nice. It got inside too, which temporarily stopped the leak, only problem was the CLR ate the innards after a few weeks, finishing it off, lol.

    Cool that triple bull knows the solution for next time.

    Bore-Tech makes jags that won't false indicate.
     
    I've found that just a few patches with Bore-Tech Eliminator and then some dry patches does the trick for my rifle. No scrubbing with brushes. No other chemicals. That's it. I clean when accuracy starts to decline. Seems to be every 350-500 rounds or so. Easy.
     
    Bore-Tech makes jags that won't false indicate.

    Proof positive - Those look like great products! That's another gripe, I have a couple rods with a brass fitting like the one in the pictures on the page you linked. Annoying...

    I have some metal coated jags that have worn through on the edges, what's underneath that coating? You guessed it, brass. All being a total bitch. Another one of those stupid things in life that shouldn't be...

    I use Boretech as my cleaners the most right now and have the last 4 years or so.
     
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    I just recently started cleaning my barrels with boretech eliminator and i thought i had found the greatest cleaner i have used to date. Now you guys drop clr on me....... i guess i will have to pick some up
     
    FYI:

    Do NOT leave CLR on carbon steel.

    CLR cuts carbon very well, literally melting it away and so I used it to clean some Stainless steel muzzlebrakes. Few hours in CLR and the brakes came out clean. Awesome! I had an old R&D muzzlebrake that was carbon steel that I wanted to clean. I dropped that into the CLR bath for about 12hrs (too long) and it came out looking like it had spent 10 Wisconsin winters...... totally rusted and pitted. It's scrap with the threads eaten away. No problems at all with the Stainless steel parts.
     
    CLR(DEP) is what is recommended by Thunder Beast to clean your suppressor. So it does make sense on why it would work for your barrel. When I get to work in a week I'm going to run some test on what has been mentioned earlier. To be safe I'm going to run it under the fume hood the test will be CLR with stainless,chrome lined and carbon steel. The second test will include flushing with water and third will be with isopropyl.
     
    Steve123 the reason they use brass is that it is easy to machine especially on screw machines. It doesn't take long to cut. Also what else would you make it out of? You need it to be softer than barrel, semi resistant to chemicals, and decently strong.

    Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

     
    Steve123 the reason they use brass is that it is easy to machine especially on screw machines. It doesn't take long to cut. Also what else would you make it out of? You need it to be softer than barrel, semi resistant to chemicals, and decently strong.

    Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

    Whatever material Proof Positive used??? Or a tough polymer, maybe alluminum. I see your point though, but the industry needs to transcend using brass for cleaning bores and or on rods. It's just ass backwards here in 2017.
     
    I have used diluted CLR as a wet additive to my walnut cartridge case cleaning medium. The wet agent causes the walnut kernels to swell, so it pays to run the vibrating vessel for a few minutes after adding the CLR solution without the brass for awhile, so the medium becomes evenly dampened and so any swelling can be completed before the medium gets inside the cases. I use a window cleaner spray bottle to dampen the surface of the walnut before allowing the vibrating action to blend it more thoroughly. All we want is a noticeably damp consistency to the medium. If the medium enters the cases before it finishes expanding, it can become impacted and very difficult to remove from them.

    The mild acidity of the CLR solution chemically reduces any brass oxidation, cleaning it right down to the bare brass, and its inclusion really speeds up the cleaning process. Once the brass has become clean, I separate the medium and hold it aside for future use. While it may be advantageous to neutralize the PH of any surface residues, I find that simply running the cleaned brass through a brief cleaning cycle using plain walnut is generally adequate to remove the residue. After several uses, this cleaner medium can take the place of tired CLR treated medium.

    An incidental side effect of tumbling with CLR happens when the cleaned brass is left in the CLR dampened walnut for an extended period, as in overnight. A dull, olive green patina develops on the case metal surface. It becomes moderately durable when separated and allowed to dry thoroughly. It stands up handloading, feeding, and firing; yet it also removes fairly easily when the fired cases are again run through the CLR dampened medium.

    I have looked for any consequences of leaving this patina remaining inside the cases, but the consequently loaded ammo appears to function normally, even after a reasonably long storage period.

    I'm supposing some of our readers may find a use for cases displaying this dull olive patina. BTW, the same process can be also applied in the same manner to copper bullet jackets.

    Please note that in a general sense, mostly all soap and detergent solutions.are mildly alkaline, and will adequately neutralize any acidic residues.

    ...And on a lighter note, please allow me to wish a Happy Independence day to all our Forum.

    Greg

    PS Finally, after reading the linked article, I read a few more from the same source. The info I found there is exceptionally valuable and useful, in my humble opinion. I eagerly suggest that our forum members use the following link and bookmark it for future reference. Primal Rights Articles.

    PPS: I have just been asked to perform cleaning on our VFW's exquisitely beautiful set of Ceremonial Garands. That is, they are beautiful on the outside. They were, however, fired with Government issue blanks and put away uncleaned for at least a half dozen times over the past five years or so, prior to my arrival here in Arizona.

    I am preparing my entire set of Garand maintenance tools, and am honestly expecting to look down the bores and see a sequence of nightmares. Although I hope not to need it, I am bringing along a tube of valve grinding compound for use in removing monumental fouling deposits and pitting. =

    As ceremonial rifles, they lack the figure-8 gas cylinder locks, and cannot be safely or successfully fired with live ammo. Indeed, it is a federal offense to do so, as the rifles belong to Uncle Sam in the first place. Still, there is no excuse for not removing the ravages of maltreatment.

    When I'm done, they will be clean, internally refurbished, and properly lubed and treated with preservative oil.

    On this Independence Day, being selected to celebrate in the preservation of such outstanding examples of the implements of our Nation's Freedoms is nothing less than a rare honor.
     
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    So I have been using VFG for a while now. Learned about them in the rimfire world and do agree they are pretty amazing and make removing the dreaded carbon ring an easier task.

    I have used CLR for a variety of home projects but never thought of using it for a rifle barrel. However, some of the comments have me wondering whether it has long term issues. One of the comments says to use isopropyl alcohol but not rubbing alcohol. Last I looked, rubbing alcohol is 70-75% isopropyl alcohol. Do you need pure isopropyl? Where do you get pure isopropyl? I have never seen it for sale though I can't say I have looked for it. Can you use another degreaser to remove the CLR?

    On another note, I never have tried to remove copper fouling. I have read more cons than pros when it comes to removing copper fouling. I certainly would like to know how many of you remove copper fouling regularly and if you do, how often do you do it?
     
    After removing the copper, do you see accuracy suffer for a bit?

    Only for 2-10 rounds on most barrels. POI shift of 2 or 3 tenths on those first few shots, but once fouled back in they'll shoot just like they did before being dirty. (until wore out) Some rifles will simply stop functioning if you don't clean them thoroughly, to include copper removal. We've had two separate 28 noslers here in the past 6 months that were so fouled you couldn't even chamber a round. It was like having zero freebore, the throat was so full of fouling. Both happened inside of 400rnds, and both users (two separate guys) were cleaning, but they weren't using aggressive enough methods.
     
    One of the comments says to use isopropyl alcohol but not rubbing alcohol. Last I looked, rubbing alcohol is 70-75% isopropyl alcohol. Do you need pure isopropyl? Where do you get pure isopropyl? I have never seen it for sale though I can't say I have looked for it.

    Rubbing alcohol as you know has a lot of water in it still. They make 99% though, I use this to make my lanolin isopropyl sizing lube s its what the 6.5 guys linked in their tutorial
    https://www.amazon.com/Swan-Percent-Isopropyl-Antiseptic-Solution/dp/B00ZCCYTWG?th=1
     
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    Rubbing alcohol as you know has a lot of water in it still. They make 99% though, I use this to make my lanolin isopropyl sizing lube s its what the 6.5 guys linked in their tutorial
    https://www.amazon.com/Swan-Percent-Isopropyl-Antiseptic-Solution/dp/B00ZCCYTWG?th=1

    Agreed. Most drug-store rubbing alcohol has a little lanolin in it to keep the isopropanol from drying the skin excessively. Isopropanol is hygroscopic so the longer it sits on the shelf, the wetter it gets. It can suck water right through the bottle. But I was mostly getting at not using drug-store rubbing alcohol to keep the lanolin out of your bore. It won't hurt the steel in terms of oxidation, but it's just another variable you don't need to add. If you can't find lanolin-free isopropanol, don't sweat it since you'll need a few shots to foul the bore anyway and by then the lanolin's probably long gone.

     
    Only for 2-10 rounds on most barrels. POI shift of 2 or 3 tenths on those first few shots, but once fouled back in they'll shoot just like they did before being dirty. (until wore out) Some rifles will simply stop functioning if you don't clean them thoroughly, to include copper removal. We've had two separate 28 noslers here in the past 6 months that were so fouled you couldn't even chamber a round. It was like having zero freebore, the throat was so full of fouling. Both happened inside of 400rnds, and both users (two separate guys) were cleaning, but they weren't using aggressive enough methods.

    Thank you for responding to my questions. Makes sense to me for sure.

    My AI AT runs pretty well but now you have me thinking. I have 2,150 rounds through my 7.62mm barrel and 500 rounds through my 6.5 Creedmoor barrel. Neither have had the copper removed. The 7.62mm is an original factory LW barrel. The 6.5mm CM is a Bartlein.

    Going to buy some CLR tomorrow and look for some pure Isopropyl alcohol and give this a test.
     
    When its time to clean... its time for a new barrel

    Agreed other than a oil patch. Repeat with an oil patch until a clean patch is pulled through. I use the Otis system to eliminate the possibility of any direction force being applied. We did tests on clean barrels shots/cold bore shots verses dirty barrel/cold bore shots and saw significant shift on the clean verses the dirty barrels.

    Using CLR? You really need to read the label first...........



    "INCOMPATIBLE MATERIALS: Strong oxidizing agents, metals (except stainless steel and chrome), bleach, acids, and bases"



    I never put out a brush down any of my bores. I've seen more barrels damaged from improper cleaning than I have from being shot out aside from full auto barrels.

    If you are using good grade jacketed bullets nothing other than carbon ever needs to be removed.
     
    Agreed other than a oil patch. Repeat with an oil patch until a clean patch is pulled through. I use the Otis system to eliminate the possibility of any direction force being applied. We did tests on clean barrels shots/cold bore shots verses dirty barrel/cold bore shots and saw significant shift on the clean verses the dirty barrels.

    Using CLR? You really need to read the label first...........



    "INCOMPATIBLE MATERIALS: Strong oxidizing agents, metals (except stainless steel and chrome), bleach, acids, and bases"



    I never put out a brush down any of my bores. I've seen more barrels damaged from improper cleaning than I have from being shot out aside from full auto barrels.

    If you are using good grade jacketed bullets nothing other than carbon ever needs to be removed.

    Your post is full of strong language. I find it hard to hold such strong opinions about what is quite possibly the singular hardest to quantify aspect in all of shooting. For instance, if I were to ask you; "show me concrete scientific incontrovertible proof of everything in your post," could you do so?

    When you say things like "you really need to read the label first," you imply that I must not have read the label, and you imply that obvious harm is going to come from what I describe in the article. Though no harm has come. Eight different rifles, rimfire and centerfire, thousands of rounds, nearly six months of time... and no harm. Point in fact, only good things have happened.

    You claim that you'll never put a brush down the bore. Though I and others have seen bores that had to be scrubbed with brushes exhaustively to get them back to shooting right. We even reversed stroke in the middle of the bore hundreds of times! Cringe worthy to be sure, yet the barrel rewarded us with outstanding sub-1/4 MOA performance afterward.

    You claim that nothing but carbon needs removed, yet I've seen a bore so fouled with copper that one could barely discern rifling.

    I think it's time for such strong language regarding people's opinions on this subject pass. Until concrete scientific evidence of the absolute best way is presented, then strong language and opinions only serve to divide and alienate people. Posts like the one you made leave no room for relative definitions such as "accurate" or "precise." When you speak to the groups of people in the shooting community whom are on the cutting edge of precision and accuracy, such as F-class and benchrest folks, you will be hard pressed to find someone on the podium that doesn't clean their rifles quite vigorously. Yet even among the most elite shooters, none can prove what they are doing is the "right" way. Just because you or someone else holds X opinion, doesn't mean everyone else is doing it wrong. That is, unless you can provide that concrete evidence I was mentioning earlier. If you can, I encourage you to publish! You'd be an overnight sensation.

    As to the strong implication in your post that I don't know what I'm doing... maybe you're right. I can't prove otherwise any more than you can prove it so. I'm fine with that. :) My rifles which I've cleaned with CLR are quite happy.

    wBCvmGMh.jpg
     
    Boretech Eliminator reacts to copper like that Ronco shit to clean copper and silver but it is a shit solution for copper fouling cleaning. You need a pretty decent barrel to rely on it.
     
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    Boretech Eliminator reacts to copper like that Ronco shit to clean copper and silver but it is a shit solution for copper fouling cleaning. You need a pretty decent barrel to rely on it.

    Can you please go into more detail here and clarify? I've been using Bore-Tech Eliminator for a few years now, exclusively. And I've got no complaints. I do also have a dedicated copper fouling cleaner. But I've since retired it to the box of useless cleaners I no longer use. Because I've seen no difference in how the rifle shoots, nor in how "clean" I can get the bore with Eliminator vs dedicated and separate cleaners for each type of fouling. Using just one cleaner cuts my cleaning time down a lot. Simplifies the process. And I've seen no accuracy changes either way. So I figure... why not use the product that makes my life easier.
     
    I use KG products so I will try out KG12. It is one of the AI recommended cleaners. Their other cleaners and lubricants are some of the best I have ever used.

    I can vouch for KG12. Liberally applied to a snug-fitting bore swab, it makes short work of exposed copper.

    As a bonus, if you're as anal about clean guns as I am, it also removes brass residue from pistol slides/breech faces, AR bolts/brass deflectors, etc...
     
    BTE, which I use most of the time, is a good bore cleaner but it merely has a good reaction to the surface of copper. That is why we see it on the patches right away. It is good to clean the copper to nice and shiny. Makes it easier to see. KG12 is much better at actually breaking down copper fouling. I can also tell the BTE works better in some barrels than others. It is a waste of time on copper in my .257 Bartlein but likes my .264 Bartlein. The former being a copper magnet. I'm only referring to and have experience with BT Eliminator. Thus, I don't like their statement that it removes copper fouling. People like seeing green on those patches and BTE will certainly do that over and over again.

    EDIT: Found a workaround for me using BTE https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...tion-of-barrel-cleaning?p=6565969#post6565969
     
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    Your post is full of strong language. I find it hard to hold such strong opinions about what is quite possibly the singular hardest to quantify aspect in all of shooting. For instance, if I were to ask you; "show me concrete scientific incontrovertible proof of everything in your post," could you do so?

    When you say things like "you really need to read the label first," you imply that I must not have read the label, and you imply that obvious harm is going to come from what I describe in the article. Though no harm has come. Eight different rifles, rimfire and centerfire, thousands of rounds, nearly six months of time... and no harm. Point in fact, only good things have happened.

    You claim that you'll never put a brush down the bore. Though I and others have seen bores that had to be scrubbed with brushes exhaustively to get them back to shooting right. We even reversed stroke in the middle of the bore hundreds of times! Cringe worthy to be sure, yet the barrel rewarded us with outstanding sub-1/4 MOA performance afterward.

    You claim that nothing but carbon needs removed, yet I've seen a bore so fouled with copper that one could barely discern rifling.

    I think it's time for such strong language regarding people's opinions on this subject pass. Until concrete scientific evidence of the absolute best way is presented, then strong language and opinions only serve to divide and alienate people. Posts like the one you made leave no room for relative definitions such as "accurate" or "precise." When you speak to the groups of people in the shooting community whom are on the cutting edge of precision and accuracy, such as F-class and benchrest folks, you will be hard pressed to find someone on the podium that doesn't clean their rifles quite vigorously. Yet even among the most elite shooters, none can prove what they are doing is the "right" way. Just because you or someone else holds X opinion, doesn't mean everyone else is doing it wrong. That is, unless you can provide that concrete evidence I was mentioning earlier. If you can, I encourage you to publish! You'd be an overnight sensation.

    As to the strong implication in your post that I don't know what I'm doing... maybe you're right. I can't prove otherwise any more than you can prove it so. I'm fine with that. :) My rifles which I've cleaned with CLR are quite happy.

    wBCvmGMh.jpg

    I was not trying to affend you in any manner and I am not sure where you get "the strong language" from and there is no implication that I stated you didn't know what you are doing.

    The data sheet on CLR states that metals (except stainless steel and chrome) are incompatible with the product.

    Sometimes shooters get suggestions and advice without knowledge of the backgrounds or related information or hazards/side effects of a process or product. I have done extensive barrel testing and cleaning procedure tests and have seen many, many barrels destroyed by improper chemicals or use of them and I wanted to throw a little caution into the wind. Many times smart people assume others know more than they do and can make a careless statement if you look at the big picture. Again not saying you did or didn't do.

    Cleaning products are a big business and like many things in life we are talked into a lot things we really don't need. Shooters can ruin a barrel by using a good product only to fail to neutralize the chemicals in the bore by simply running oil patches through it afterwards. Chemicals can continue to etch the sulfur content in the bore long after it has been stored in a safe. That can create more and larger voids in the substrate which will create the need for more cleaning and the increased use of brushes. Over use or incorrect use of a brush, especially a steel brush, can cause damage to the lands/substrate which can lead to the creation of voids.

    Some special groups have a cleaning routine routine that serve them well for their needs but it comes a price in barrel life. Much like a pro motorcross rider has his bike rebuild every few races. No issues with that if you are living on the edge.

    Many times people follow along with the same routine just because it was handed down to them from someone who handled it down to them. Shoot once, clean, shoot two, clean etc, etc, etc, break in procedure comes to mind. That was a valid procedure in the day to fill in the voids of the parent material with jacketed material and use a brush to remove the non embedded material from the substrate. It was repeated until smooth to obtain the accuracy needed.

    I don't recommend that cleaning procedure on any barrel that uses high grade material from the current mill processes. The metallurgical process of today's mills create material without the voids of yesterday's steels. I know for a fact when I purchase a large lot of 416R from the mill it passes NDT before it leaves and certified to the required ASTM standard. Therefore the cleaning or breaking processes should be readdressed.

    I have published articles and I still don't consider myself an expert but I do believe that although technically others may not be totally wrong it is time to rethink many of common practices that we as shooters do today. Just think a few years ago not that many people knew about or knew the differences of the G1 verses G7 drag profile.

    Don't take offense when non was implied. Take my comments to heart or dismiss them as crap, I know the difference and it matters to me. Good luck with your process.
     
    Best shooter I know is an old retired guy. All he uses is Hoppes #9. People have mentioned they don't clean until accuracy falls off. Probably something to that as well.
     
    Best shooter I know is an old retired guy. All he uses is Hoppes #9. People have mentioned they don't clean until accuracy falls off. Probably something to that as well.

    That's all I've ever used, it just smells so good. Every 500 or so I'll run a patch or two down just for shits and giggles because I haven't in awhile. With all the other chemicals on the market maybe I don't know what I'm missing but if I'm not missing it is there really anything else to be gained for me?

    Circular reasoning, I know.
     
    That's all I've ever used, it just smells so good. Every 500 or so I'll run a patch or two down just for shits and giggles because I haven't in awhile. With all the other chemicals on the market maybe I don't know what I'm missing but if I'm not missing it is there really anything else to be gained for me?

    Circular reasoning, I know.

    I s'pose that if your cleaning method delivers results that are acceptable to you, that's all that really matters... however, I will say that in my experience, the cleaning ability of Hoppe's #9 is surpassed by other products on the market. Based on what I have seen, #9 will get (most) things "clean enough"... but for those of us who are really particular, there's a big difference between "clean enough" and truly CLEAN.

    In regard to the smell, as much as I dearly love the smell of #9, my wife truly hates it... and in an effort to be able to come home and find all my shit where I left it instead of in a big pile in the front yard, I try to accommodate her when I can. ;-)
     
    I was not trying to affend you in any manner and I am not sure where you get "the strong language" from and there is no implication that I stated you didn't know what you are doing.

    The data sheet on CLR states that metals (except stainless steel and chrome) are incompatible with the product.

    Sometimes shooters get suggestions and advice without knowledge of the backgrounds or related information or hazards/side effects of a process or product. I have done extensive barrel testing and cleaning procedure tests and have seen many, many barrels destroyed by improper chemicals or use of them and I wanted to throw a little caution into the wind. Many times smart people assume others know more than they do and can make a careless statement if you look at the big picture. Again not saying you did or didn't do.

    Cleaning products are a big business and like many things in life we are talked into a lot things we really don't need. Shooters can ruin a barrel by using a good product only to fail to neutralize the chemicals in the bore by simply running oil patches through it afterwards. Chemicals can continue to etch the sulfur content in the bore long after it has been stored in a safe. That can create more and larger voids in the substrate which will create the need for more cleaning and the increased use of brushes. Over use or incorrect use of a brush, especially a steel brush, can cause damage to the lands/substrate which can lead to the creation of voids.

    Some special groups have a cleaning routine routine that serve them well for their needs but it comes a price in barrel life. Much like a pro motorcross rider has his bike rebuild every few races. No issues with that if you are living on the edge.

    Many times people follow along with the same routine just because it was handed down to them from someone who handled it down to them. Shoot once, clean, shoot two, clean etc, etc, etc, break in procedure comes to mind. That was a valid procedure in the day to fill in the voids of the parent material with jacketed material and use a brush to remove the non embedded material from the substrate. It was repeated until smooth to obtain the accuracy needed.

    I don't recommend that cleaning procedure on any barrel that uses high grade material from the current mill processes. The metallurgical process of today's mills create material without the voids of yesterday's steels. I know for a fact when I purchase a large lot of 416R from the mill it passes NDT before it leaves and certified to the required ASTM standard. Therefore the cleaning or breaking processes should be readdressed.

    I have published articles and I still don't consider myself an expert but I do believe that although technically others may not be totally wrong it is time to rethink many of common practices that we as shooters do today. Just think a few years ago not that many people knew about or knew the differences of the G1 verses G7 drag profile.

    Don't take offense when non was implied. Take my comments to heart or dismiss them as crap, I know the difference and it matters to me. Good luck with your process.

    "Strong language" doesn't mean swears or insulting words. It means definitive statements. Conclusions. An end to thought. That's how I read it, at least.
     
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    I s'pose that if your cleaning method delivers results that are acceptable to you, that's all that really matters... however, I will say that in my experience, the cleaning ability of Hoppe's #9 is surpassed by other products on the market. Based on what I have seen, #9 will get (most) things "clean enough"... but for those of us who are really particular, there's a big difference between "clean enough" and truly CLEAN.

    In regard to the smell, as much as I dearly love the smell of #9, my wife truly hates it... and in an effort to be able to come home and find all my shit where I left it instead of in a big pile in the front yard, I try to accommodate her when I can. ;-)

    Sounds like this message was written for you my friend: https://www.gunhive.com/news/bullets-from-the-bible-07-13-17.html
     
    "Strong language" doesn't mean swears or insulting words. It means definitive statements. Conclusions. An end to thought. That's how I read it, at least.

    That is correct. ^

    I spent considerable effort in that article explaining how no conclusive proof on this subject has been provided one way or the next, so for anyone to have that strong of language regarding their definitive opinions would seem a fools errand unless they have the hard scientific data to back up their views. You say you've done extensive testing and cleaning procedure tests Decoy. I would like to see the white papers on this testing if you'd be so kind. I'd love to know all of the specifics surrounding the testing as well as the tests themselves. The articles you've published on the subject, where can they be found? Are you employed in the firearm industry? If so, where?

    You obviously have strong views on this subject, so I'd like to read your work before beginning a debate if we're to have one.