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The First Thousand Shots
- Thread starter justin amateur
- Start date
Try not to get all pissed off, but after reading a number of your comments, I respectfully ask for you to document your bona fides. You certainly have opinions, and are not shy about expressing them in a somewhat contentious manner. As a reader of this thread and the article about cleaning .22's with the U-Tube video that you disagreed with, I am wondering what makes you such an expert?
Not pissed off at all, anybody can easily check who I am and my bonafides in rimfire.
contentious may come in where you lay down easily veritable facts and then have guys who simply want to argue.
I seem one of very few, very few, active competitors that will post here.
Ever stop and wonder why most don’t ?
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How so? Your profile doesn't give your real name.
Being an active competitor, even a successful one, is no direct indicator of experience in any of the technical areas that go into rifle building. It's a direct indicator of being a good shooter.
crps-shooter
I don’t know if this is correct but this is what I have done in the past when I was comparing head space on several makes and models of rimfire
I measured the rim recess on the bolt or in a couple of instances the barrel , took lead fuse wire and placed on the bolt face the closed the bolt , measure the thickness of the wire , add to the rim recess depth and you have the actual headspace of that rifle
If anyone disagrees please explain why as I want to know ,
I don’t know if this is correct but this is what I have done in the past when I was comparing head space on several makes and models of rimfire
I measured the rim recess on the bolt or in a couple of instances the barrel , took lead fuse wire and placed on the bolt face the closed the bolt , measure the thickness of the wire , add to the rim recess depth and you have the actual headspace of that rifle
If anyone disagrees please explain why as I want to know ,
Sometimes answering a question with a question is appropriate. For Justin, polishing is not particularly tough. Why do you suspect makers of match grade, hand lapped SS barrels, CF and RF alike leave a final finish around 200grit give or take a bit ?
Dang....I go to the range to send another 100 and miss out on all the fun. 
Tim, read y'er recommendation regarding solvent for lead removal.
I use Lewis for my Buckmark Silhouette for when the kids are burning up the Fed AutoMatch
Deposits build up fast when the barrel gets hot from rapid fire.
In this case it doesn't help. That really is the steel as it shipped from Crosman.
As a double check, grabbed a tool steel pick from the work bench
and scraped the rifling just inside the muzzle. Did not change or remove any deposits.
Can't remove lead when there's no lead there.
Tim, read y'er recommendation regarding solvent for lead removal.
I use Lewis for my Buckmark Silhouette for when the kids are burning up the Fed AutoMatch
Deposits build up fast when the barrel gets hot from rapid fire.
In this case it doesn't help. That really is the steel as it shipped from Crosman.
As a double check, grabbed a tool steel pick from the work bench
and scraped the rifling just inside the muzzle. Did not change or remove any deposits.
Can't remove lead when there's no lead there.
I would guess that it is to hold the lube in RF, no idea about CF ... so I guess that is probably wrong.
Next guess ... since those barrels tighten down on the bullet as it approaches the muzzle the 'roughness' would sand the bullet smaller rather than squishing it smaller. I think I would like mine sanded please.
Same finish RF CF. Not really rough, per se. those barrels shooting match ammo have a nice film of warm lube throughout, Taper is rarely more than .0003”, no sanding it just get a bit tighter.
The real reason is that if really polished, bbl won’t hold/distribute lube properly and the slug skids down the tube.
So what you are saying is a barrel interior must have a 200 finish and never be smooth to carry the lube?
There's 500 shots through the new barrel.
More bulk ammo at 50 yards on a pre-front morning.
Link to folder with the borescope images https://photos.app.goo.gl/D5CheG8X6e48Ev9m6
Sure looks like those tool marks are being scraped away...
More bulk ammo at 50 yards on a pre-front morning.
Link to folder with the borescope images https://photos.app.goo.gl/D5CheG8X6e48Ev9m6
Sure looks like those tool marks are being scraped away...
Well, they do do it for a reason. A RF barrel needs texture in there to distribute a nice layer of warm lube.
That’s what the bullet actually rides over on it’s way to the muzzle.
Much like the hone pattern in a cylinder retains oil on an engine.
Improves how the rings seal and decreases friction.
Improves how the rings seal and decreases friction.
Thanks Tim and Justin, I haven't even had breakfast and I've already learned something today.
That would seem to not include you.
Potato, potahtoh.
About the same stuff as valve grinding paste,except without the paste, aluminum oxide.
Usually start rough lap at 100 or so then do final lap/ taper lap around 200.
I say around because some, seem to continue the same stuff of the lead lap, usually suspended in oil, but it breaks down and becomes finer.
I guess when you lap thousands of barrels you get to know about the how and when that happens.
Here is a prime example of what I referred to elsewhere about contentious responses.
Guy enters into the conversation with a meaningless post to appear smart, more or less, simply to make a bullshit argumentative post.
Now, I ‘m a big boy, comes with internet forum posts,does’nt bother me... BUT that doesn’t mean I can’t smack’em around a bit.
It takes about 15 seconds to check and see Clover offers a variety of lapping oxides, all expressed in grit size.
There is a reason that signature is at the bottom.
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Tim,
If you have no interest why post? If any of us want information about inside barrel finish we can get that from @Frank Green who knows a little about the subject.
Most here enjoy @justin amateur 's input. Even when we disagree, it's interesting. One thing we like about Justin is that he makes no pretense of rimfire greatness, he just puts his opinions and test out for all to see.
You do not post your name but want others to utilize our internet sleuthing to discover your greatness. I don't think anyone cares. Could be wrong.
If you have no interest why post? If any of us want information about inside barrel finish we can get that from @Frank Green who knows a little about the subject.
Most here enjoy @justin amateur 's input. Even when we disagree, it's interesting. One thing we like about Justin is that he makes no pretense of rimfire greatness, he just puts his opinions and test out for all to see.
You do not post your name but want others to utilize our internet sleuthing to discover your greatness. I don't think anyone cares. Could be wrong.
Sure, as long as you have a fixture, can cast a lead lap, know how to use it including proper indexing.
More than a few home plumbers have screwed up perfectly shootable barrels.
OK I didn’t read the whole thread.....
So what’s the short version?
From the little reading I did... it seems like the discussion is about a rough vs a better/smoother finish in the bore of a rimfire barrel is the debate?
Later, Frank
Who said I have no interest ? my name is Tim, yours is what rth?
Always nice to have somebody weigh in on rimfire who’s total informational post total seems to be about Zero.
Did I ever refer to any level of “greatness” , simply factual, easily verifiable, information.
What does it, perhaps, show ?At this time in the project, does anyone want to change their opinion
on barrel wear improving accuracy, during the first thousand shots?
How about the ability of primer residue on lead projectiles acting as an abrasive surface finishing tool?
Instigator? Who? Me?
you have random groups often with random ammo, shot with no attempt to be factoring in condition ( flags), so what, if anything does it show ?
It could show Wednsday was a better day than Monday. It could show a bunch of random stuff.
What, exactly does so few groups under less than optimum circumstances show ?
I mean it definitely showed you had fun, hey who am I to say don’t have fun but hell, you might as well have shot in a prom dress and makeup.......proof you shoot better in drag.
Two, maybe factoids for you.
Most high performing BR barrels, the best of breed, the vast majority of them perform their best right from the get go.
A “few” take a bit. the “ guess” is because some chambers.......not barrels, need a little seasoning in the way they foul with carbon/lead requiring good breakin technique to yield max performance.
This, perhaps, also speaks to my comments about barrel cleaning.
Last I heard a chamber is connected to the barrel.
The second....if you really become a student for some of this stuff ( I post zero original info) you invariably run into @HuskerP7M8 , aka Landy Landescaper who is the single most obsessed testing SOB you are ever going to find and usually needs thousands upon thousands of rounds in a tunnel for a conclusion.
So if you lay down a bunch of groups in the big .300’s and durring you test you yield a bunch in the little .300’s, now we have some useful data.
But, shit, what do I know. Have fun.
I dont see a barrel getting "to smooth". As Justin mentioned with a engine we need a cross hatch to maintain proper lubrication. It takes more cycles to remove that then most of us have time to shoot. Lets take a b model cat with 1 million miles on it. Liners still have the cross hatch. I pick a B model because they are mechanical and produce more carbon generally then a E or C. I know all of the above with over the 1m and they still have a cross hatch. Less then original on the high wear sides but there.
1m miles is typically 20,000+ hrs lets say 20k
Average rpm 1400 ish depending on use case. Sooo 1,680,000,000 cycles. Ok ok only half of those cycles involve a "explosion" cut the number in half or quarter divide by 1000 see if I care. Thats a lot of ammo!!
I know its not apples to apples but it involves heat and carbon. The sharp edges of the cross hatch wear off but the pattern stays.
1m miles is typically 20,000+ hrs lets say 20k
Average rpm 1400 ish depending on use case. Sooo 1,680,000,000 cycles. Ok ok only half of those cycles involve a "explosion" cut the number in half or quarter divide by 1000 see if I care. Thats a lot of ammo!!
I know its not apples to apples but it involves heat and carbon. The sharp edges of the cross hatch wear off but the pattern stays.
Frank,
it kind of morphed into two questions.
One, the opinion about rimfire barrels should be never/ ever cleaned. I stated the majority of match grade SS barrels, usually found in RFBR are cleaned on a fairly regular basis, usually every card or two.
Second the question was raised about polishing a barrel interior.
Now, there, understand, in the RFBR world that does put the majority in the buttoned/ taper lapped world and I indicated most end with a finish lap around 200 grit more or less, at most, but based on the number of your 6mm barrels I shoot, I’d guess I’m not far off your finish.
I think I summarized that accurately.
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Yeah, generally, however over the years more than a couple rocket scientists have tried to polish a few to a mirror bright finish with results that were not too hot, including leading which is rare in a custom barrel shooting high grade ammo.
So you can get there, as you said, not by shooting, but you can get there.
Can anyone verify this?
Eley primer compound uses 30 to 60 micron silica particles
as the igniting agent in it's cartridges.
I've done some digging but haven't found any verification.
That's roughly 280 to 600 grit...roughly.
And, guess what grit size is used in lapping custom barrels?
Would you believe 240 to 320? How about that? Silica, an abrasive,
present in the burn residue, is the size used to smooth the bore of a custom barrel.
Dang.... I might not be too far off with my original comments regarding barrel break-in.
I really am that easily entertained.
Eley primer compound uses 30 to 60 micron silica particles
as the igniting agent in it's cartridges.
I've done some digging but haven't found any verification.
That's roughly 280 to 600 grit...roughly.
And, guess what grit size is used in lapping custom barrels?
Would you believe 240 to 320? How about that? Silica, an abrasive,
present in the burn residue, is the size used to smooth the bore of a custom barrel.
Dang.... I might not be too far off with my original comments regarding barrel break-in.
I really am that easily entertained.
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Tim,
My name is Richard Hale. Most here know that but for those ignorant of the fact there it is.
You are craving attention and affirmation of your greatness on a site where no one gives a shit. You should go back to staring in the mirror. You are your own fan club.
I am very happy my crowning achievement in life is not shooting a kids rifle at a spot on a paper target.
I never ever heard anyplace it was reported, probably proprietary in house only info.
Well with such distain for kids rifles shooting spots, why are you wasting your valuable time on this thread?
Surely you could be working toward world peace, global hunger solutions, etc.
I've forgotten more about honing and grinding than you'll ever know.
You're Dunning-Kruger in action
What, engine heads? Boiler vessels?
Anything resembling barrel lapping? Ever been within 100 miles of a custom barrel shop ? Ever owned a handmade SS barrel? Talked to a single soul that makes them ?
Let’s just go with ahhhhhhhh....no.
Wow, reading a cool thread with a guy sharing some cool stuff. It turned into a shit show. Thanks for posting your work Justin it was interesting hope you keep it up.
The 30 to 60 micron silica particle size, is from the expired patent for Eley priming.
Current recorded patents show the particle size to be 70 to 150 microns.
That's about 100 to 240 grit. Dang, that's some coarse abrasives.
It's good when someone points me in the right direction.
Now I have to read my way through multiple tech sheets from the patent office.
Most of which will deal with things I have no experience with.
Welcome to the 'hide.
We gotcher drama, y'er humor, a bit of wize-adzery
and sometimes some useful information that helps explain things.
Enjoy the show.
Current recorded patents show the particle size to be 70 to 150 microns.
That's about 100 to 240 grit. Dang, that's some coarse abrasives.
It's good when someone points me in the right direction.
Now I have to read my way through multiple tech sheets from the patent office.
Most of which will deal with things I have no experience with.
Welcome to the 'hide.
We gotcher drama, y'er humor, a bit of wize-adzery
and sometimes some useful information that helps explain things.
Enjoy the show.
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Another interested shooter captured these images this evening.
Pulled a patch through the barrel of his 22 and looked at it under a microscope.
Those clear shiny crystals are the silica particles found in y'er barrel after every shot.
That is what's causing the linear abrasions as they are dragged through the bore by the bullets.
Pulled a patch through the barrel of his 22 and looked at it under a microscope.
Those clear shiny crystals are the silica particles found in y'er barrel after every shot.
That is what's causing the linear abrasions as they are dragged through the bore by the bullets.
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Here come my 2 cents.
I am a new shooter, got my 64 MPR in July last and have 18k rounds through it. I cleaned as per Mr.Anschutz's instructions which was after every outing and a real scrub with a bronze brush every 1000 for the first 10k, after that every 5 or 10. I don't remember(I said I was new, not young).
At 8k that barrel woke up, it got just a little better. No data that would qualify as statistically significant but when you shoot every day trying to improve as if your life depends on it you notice stuff. I shoot in very good conditions, supported, prone, with adequate glass.
At this exact time the rifle also started shooting noticeably cleaner. Whereas prior I could push patches for 10 minutes and they would always come out grey, at 8k rounds the third patch was usually barely discolored. Note also, the aforementioned Mr.Anschutz may know this already as reflected in his prescribed cleaning regimen.
So I am of the opinion that a thousand rounds is not enough to do the job.
I am a new shooter, got my 64 MPR in July last and have 18k rounds through it. I cleaned as per Mr.Anschutz's instructions which was after every outing and a real scrub with a bronze brush every 1000 for the first 10k, after that every 5 or 10. I don't remember(I said I was new, not young).
At 8k that barrel woke up, it got just a little better. No data that would qualify as statistically significant but when you shoot every day trying to improve as if your life depends on it you notice stuff. I shoot in very good conditions, supported, prone, with adequate glass.
At this exact time the rifle also started shooting noticeably cleaner. Whereas prior I could push patches for 10 minutes and they would always come out grey, at 8k rounds the third patch was usually barely discolored. Note also, the aforementioned Mr.Anschutz may know this already as reflected in his prescribed cleaning regimen.
So I am of the opinion that a thousand rounds is not enough to do the job.
Justin , thanks for sharing , like most things I would think there are more people who enjoy the information than are complaining , Let me ask this the size of the abrasive in the powder , priming mixture what size is it after ignition ? More for you to think about 
That's right Hoyt....add to the workload.
For scale, this is 3M 30 micron Micromesh paper at the same microscope setting.
So those silica particles are what? 60 to 150? That's after combustion and depositing in the bore.
For scale, this is 3M 30 micron Micromesh paper at the same microscope setting.
So those silica particles are what? 60 to 150? That's after combustion and depositing in the bore.
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Dipshits like you are on the express lane to the ignored list
I would have to agree that 1000 rounds isn't enough. Its likely enough to show barrel "wear" but i think the accuracy could still continue to get better. My IBI got better for the first 1500 Id say im only at 27-2800 so perhaps at 10k I will see a improvement?? My ruger at (read not quite premium barrel) 20k to 30k i seen a difference still.
Thanks for staying after the correct answers rather than idiotic assumptions. Question may also be is it possible a minuet amount of the glass particulates are imbedded in the interior of the rifling and stays there permanently? To an extent protecting the bore from the new abrasive? I have noticed a very dark, glossy buildup in my bores after a period of time. Say 2000 rounds. After cleaning it seems to be gone until I do the same thing again.That's right Hoyt....add to the workload.
For scale, this is 3M 30 micron Micromesh paper at the same microscope setting.
So those silica particles are what? 60 to 150? That's after combustion and depositing in the bore.
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The patents I've been reading state the silica can act as an erosion barrier.
As to how is not explained. That will require someone with a better background
in both physics and chemistry. Not my area of expertise.
As to how is not explained. That will require someone with a better background
in both physics and chemistry. Not my area of expertise.
Always nice to hear from somebody with 8000 posts yet apparently not a single solitary one contributing anything to rimfire information.One of the downfalls of a small mind that has achieved slight success in a tiny niche is the arrogant assumption that others know nothing. Thus you get “tiny Tim”
How could you possibly know what my niche/success ratio is?
Besides, I tracked down your picture and apparently you have enough issues already
Assuming you are reading what's available online, do you assume today's priming is the same or close to that? You might be surprised.
Are you aware, for instance, that just a couple years back at a major BR match, ELEY sent an engineer from the UK to the US to discuss all manner of items, not the least of which was priming. Again, you'd be surprised.
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