The future and supply of gun food?

[Manzgear]

I didnt bring this up so it would go somewhere political, But I am wondering what you guys think about ammo and firearms supplies, guns etc...
Do you think things will ever get better. or will we be in a perpetual circle of trying to hoard ammo and supplies. I dont feel that this will get better. Even After four years. Please tell me that Im wrong and why?
I love this country, but I feel that we will forever continue to search for 22lr and any other ammo that is dried up. I think to some degree parts for guns like for example jewell triggers will hit a saturation point. but recently jewell triggers were non-existent and they were being sold on ebay for $300 a piece.. Any thoughts ?

 

[CharlieTN]

I work as a salesman for a sporting goods wholesaler who has had to answer phone call after phone call from dealers all over this country trying to find anything they could.

Here are my thoughts. Yes, it will settle. I don't think it will settle completely to normal for a good bit still. Our shelves are empty. The dealers shelves are still empty and at the same time there are countless individuals who have either been unable to find the ammo or components they want to buy or unwilling to pay the heavily inflated prices and have held off their purchases. Those individuals will now hit the stores and buy what they were looking for. Will it be more than they normally would have bought, you bet. I do believe the new trend will be for shooters of all types to keep on hand much greater supplies of ammo and reloading components than they previously had with us having gone through 2 major shortages in less than 5 years and with the tangible threats to our rights and freedoms.

I know for myself, as components begin to tickle in that I will be buying more than I had before. My desirable stockpile level will go up and I'm sure many others will as well.

Prices will settle some, especially on the retail side. For the most part the manufactures and distributors have raised their prices much less this time than they did during the previous shortage. The most significant drops will be at the gunshows and online. However, there have already been 2 substantial price increases already this year with another one already announced from the major manufacturers.

We have already seen a substantial drop in the demand for hi-cap magazines as well as a drop in the demand for middle priced AR's. Low end as well as the high end AR's are still going as fast as we can get them but that too will settle down shortly.

I'll also throw out another thought here. The previous rush lasted almost 1 1/2 years. After it "settled down" our sales number were still considerably higher than they had been prior to the 1st election rush. The market has changed. The number of gun owners has skyrocketed. The number of individuals enjoying the shooting sports has grown like never before. The entry level price point for a good AR has dropped (ignoring the temporarily inflated prices currently) immensely. There are more people with more guns enjoying shooting them more than likely anytime in our history.

Charlie

 

[Manzgear]

CHarlie, very well put. I completely forgot about the new shooters that we are competing with. That makes a lot of sense. I know the guns are out there. even if those of us whom have more than 10 guns that decide we just dont need this or that and decide to sell. People will obviously pick those up. My concern for the most part is the ammo. I feel we are being contracted out of ability to buy ammo. Most firearms manufacturers and ammunition companies have an obligation to their "government contracts" before they do to us the "civilian" consumer. And I am concerned that the government will try to keep them busy if they are unable to legislate the guns out of our hands. Are you hearing anything to that effect from the dealers? distributors? again thanks for your last bit of input.

 

[Dferg02]

Cabelas actually had a good stock of .223 and 7.62x39 ammo Tuesday. Granted, it was the cheap steel cased stuff, but its definitely an improvement over the way it has been. They also had many other rifle calibers and some handgun ammo.

 

[DuneBoer]

I just called Winchester and checked on a dept order for 40 S&W I have had in since last June well before the craziness. I also tried to order some 38 Special. I was told to expect an 8 month wait.

We are running low on ammo for our mandatory tactical shoots and our qual shoots. I went to the local sporting goods outfit here an bought all the 40 he had 1000 rounds Rem gold dot and all the 223 he had 900 Win white box 62 grain. Out of the goodness of his heart he sold me stuff out of his personal stash. I supply the SO with ammo as well as for my guys because we have this contract with Winchester and I can get it cheaper.

I am not trying to be political but this is getting ridiculous. I set aside ammo for just in case and right now I am dipping into my just in case ammo. We have a specific loads we are authorized to carry in all our weapons and what we qual with. Our duty/qual ammo is getting extremely low and I'm not sure what we will do.

We are not to the point of having to carry Wolf or Blazer for duty yet but..... fuck this shit has got to end. My hope is that everyone who has stuff on order will back out since the anti-gun blitz is on hold for now and things will calm down.

So, where is all the the surplus US military ammo going? There has to be shitloads in Iraq. Right?

No, I don't work for DHS.

 

[CharlieTN]

CHarlie, very well put. I completely forgot about the new shooters that we are competing with. That makes a lot of sense. I know the guns are out there. even if those of us whom have more than 10 guns that decide we just dont need this or that and decide to sell. People will obviously pick those up. My concern for the most part is the ammo. I feel we are being contracted out of ability to buy ammo. Most firearms manufacturers and ammunition companies have an obligation to their "government contracts" before they do to us the "civilian" consumer. And I am concerned that the government will try to keep them busy if they are unable to legislate the guns out of our hands. Are you hearing anything to that effect from the dealers? distributors? again thanks for your last bit of input.

Althought it seems like there is no ammo out there I can speak for my company personally. Our sales number are up, way up. We are getting ammo, more than normal. The problem is that while we're receiving more than normal, the demand is at least 50x what it normally is. What we are getting isn't going very far at all. We have had to essentially quit accepting new accounts as we are not getting enough to take good care of our long standing customers.

I liken this to a self-feeding fire. Joe Blow wants to get 5 boxes of .45ACP. After searching ever local store, browsing the web and calling everyone he can he finally finds a bit of ammo. Since he had to search so hard panic has set in and now Joe Blow buys 10 boxes or more if he can. Add to that the fact that all of the major manufacturers were already operating at near 95% capacity, there wasn't much room to raise production. The machines to load ammo are not something they can just order and the training to safely operate them takes lots of time. The manufacturers know this will slow back down at some point so they are not willing to purchase more machines or train more operators.

After talking to reps and manufacturers I do not believe there is some big government cover-up or conspirancy. Our own sales number would disprove it.

Just be patient. There will be more coming and the prices should settle down.

 

[Ninja]

...So, where is all the the surplus US military ammo going? There has to be shitloads in Iraq. Right?...

I tried to post up this link from the Hides' previous board but it wouldn't work & I can't find the original ops' name for credit 8>(

Here is the text stating our policy for NOT returning surplus ammo (unservicable) to taxpayers:

All the stuff from Iraq comes through Kuwait and sits at arifjan. I work with EOD when they shoot their Barretts out this way, they said they have destroyed in excess of 10 million rounds of Small Arms Ammo (.50cal and below)since september. the QUAS-I (QC) inspector at AJ is a douche and Code "H" (needs to be destroyed - unservicable) entire pallets of ammo that could be used elsewhere. I wont even start with DRMO at AJ as i watched them shred an entire box of Nightforce optics and PVS-14's. Luckily the 1sg for EOD secured a couple for their M107's
i would think #1 isnt true for the most part, there is probably 200 sq acres of ammo on pallets sitting waiting to be destroyed.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

the dismal'ness of this statement ^^^ is beyond description. Anyone have further info, pics, experiences?

 

[Manzgear]

wow ! is all I can say... I knew the military wasted shit but not to that degree. The other thing is when I go to walmart they are limiting how many boxes of ammo people can buy in a day. Here in Communist NY they are limiting one customer to 3 boxes of any ammo per day - that is if they have it. And every night when the new inventory is put on the shelf.. the same 20 guys go everyday at 7pm and wait for the guy to open. the boxes to see whats available. So guys are waiting daily and most days nothing is there... i understand 3 box limits but then they do it to 50 rd little tiny boxes of 22lr that came out of a 500 rd brick box- thats upsetting.. I only go to crazy mart to get bulk pistol ammo for my "Bunker" where I can sit alone and wear my tinfoil hat.. the rifle ammo is a all custom loaded... but seriously though components are being rationed here at local gun places.. You have to buy a box of bullets $35 with 100bullets in order to buy one sleeve of 100 primers... for $5.... really? One pound of powder per person per day.. I really believe there is stuff behind the scenes that they are doing to limit availability... and it may be state related.. If DHS can get warrants for medical records and tell certain counties in NY to have peoples permits to be revoked for being on medication. then... well do the math..

 

[DuneBoer]

If the waste of the surplus ammo is to this degree, a senator needs to make an inquiry. It falls under fraud waste and abuse and whistle blower. Shit don't burn it you could give to big sis at least! I mean she is getting all those MRAPS from the military right?

 

[McCrazy]

the dismal'ness of this statement ^^^ is beyond description. Anyone have further info, pics, experiences?

Procedural hurdles, hassles, and red tape make it very difficult for us to bring ammo back from overseas. Often it is taken to the range and shot for minimal training value but also wears out our weapons that much faster. The unit here before me blew up some of their .50 cal and other ammo for some reason. They left a bunch of other ammo so I don't know why they sacrificed the .50 rounds.

It sucks and I hate it but it is the way it is.

 

[Veer_G]

I'm thinking that it might be cheaper to destroy it in place than to ship it back? The government used to be much better about making surplus available, but, regulations notwithstanding, I think that a good amount of the trust factor is just gone.

 

[longguntoter]

Althought it seems like there is no ammo out there I can speak for my company personally. Our sales number are up, way up. We are getting ammo, more than normal. The problem is that while we're receiving more than normal, the demand is at least 50x what it normally is. What we are getting isn't going very far at all. We have had to essentially quit accepting new accounts as we are not getting enough to take good care of our long standing customers.

I liken this to a self-feeding fire. Joe Blow wants to get 5 boxes of .45ACP. After searching ever local store, browsing the web and calling everyone he can he finally finds a bit of ammo. Since he had to search so hard panic has set in and now Joe Blow buys 10 boxes or more if he can. Add to that the fact that all of the major manufacturers were already operating at near 95% capacity, there wasn't much room to raise production. The machines to load ammo are not something they can just order and the training to safely operate them takes lots of time. The manufacturers know this will slow back down at some point so they are not willing to purchase more machines or train more operators.

After talking to reps and manufacturers I do not believe there is some big government cover-up or conspirancy. Our own sales number would disprove it.

Just be patient. There will be more coming and the prices should settle down.

CharlieTN, what I don't understand is .22 LR. I am 48 years old and have been shooting pretty much all my life, but have never not been able to buy .22 Long Rifle. What gives? I shoot more .22 than anything else, and my usual 6,000 or so rounds is down to about 4,000 rounds...I need to restock. What do you think the deal is with the rimfire?

 

[Honky]

I literally just stared at the computer for a few minutes. How is it even remotely acceptable to just destroy expensive supplies like ammunition--and for what? Is there really that much paperwork that has to be filled out that its that much easier to just blow it all up?

And good point [MENTION=17403]Veer_G[/MENTION], I do get the feeling that we are no longer deemed trustworthy. Wouldn't want those military-grade assault bullets for our gunshow-loophole assault rifles getting on the streets.

 

[Veer_G]

[MENTION=82224]Honky[/MENTION]: Any chance you could come up with an even bigger signature image of gun-hatin' Daniel Craig?

 

[CharlieTN]

CharlieTN, what I don't understand is .22 LR. I am 48 years old and have been shooting pretty much all my life, but have never not been able to buy .22 Long Rifle. What gives? I shoot more .22 than anything else, and my usual 6,000 or so rounds is down to about 4,000 rounds...I need to restock. What do you think the deal is with the rimfire?

When the last ammo rush happened we saw rimfire ammo, along with any other caliber that wasn't mainstream disappear. Then, as I suspect now, it was simply a matter of the manufacturers allocating their resources toward the calibers where they had the most PO's. Compound that with the fact that over the last 4 years there has been a substantial increase in the number of "high volume" rimfire firearms. What I mean by that is firearms that the owners are likely to shoot a much higher volume of rounds through at a given session. This would primarily be AR's, and conversions. Also when there is an ammo rush and centerfire prices go up and ammo becomes hard to get, a lot of shooters turn to rimfires.

Compounds the problem and makes rimfire hard to find.

 

[Honky]

[MENTION=17403]Veer_G[/MENTION] Who's this "Daniel Craig" you speak of? That's Agent 007, and he happens to be quite fond of firearms.

Actually, I was trying to put that beside my "Justified" poster, and somehow Mr. Olyphant got deleted. I'm still working on the problem. . . I hate computers.

 

[Honky]

[MENTION=17403]Veer_G[/MENTION] There, I changed it to Clint Eastwood. Happy?!?!?!?

 

[Hairball]

When I had been on active duty we got rid of so much stuff. The other issue is the ability to put the stock back into circulation once it has been purchased. The GOV is good at spending money but they do not have a good system for returns or shifting expenditures back to usuable money. You should see the 1000s of trucks and hummers that are just lined up in the desert rotting away because they won't send them back to the states. I remember when we sent some folks to gunsite for some training and they left 5k rounds of 9mm there because they did not want to bring it back to CA. If I had the cash I would charter a cargo ship and go over there and take that surplus junk off their hands. Not only are they destroying millions of rounds, they are buying just as many at the same time

 

[Honky]

Not only are they destroying millions of rounds, they are buying just as many at the same time

That's just insane. All the melodrama about sequestration and stuff like this is going on (apparently) routinely. And think about what all the other .gov agencies are wasting. Cut all that waste and we'd have plenty of money. Oh, who am I kidding, that's too logical.

EDIT: Hey, my 50th post!

 

[Veer_G]

@Honky: Any chance you could come up with an even bigger signature image of gun-hatin' Daniel Craig?

@Veer_G Who's this "Daniel Craig" you speak of? That's Agent 007, and he happens to be quite fond of firearms.

Actually, I was trying to put that beside my "Justified" poster, and somehow Mr. Olyphant got deleted. I'm still working on the problem. . . I hate computers.

Daniel Craig is an actor who portrays 007.

 

[Queequeg]

Daniel Craig fond of firearms? News to me.

Fond of confiscating them is what I've heard him say, repeatedly.

 

[wfjames22]

One of my buddies had a business meeting at the Remington ammunition plant in Lonoke, AR last week. He said that the guy he was in a meeting with told him that they were currently producing 10 million 22lr rounds, 2.5 million centerfire rifle/pistol rounds and 1 million shotgun shells PER DAY! Where is all that ammo?

 

[Veer_G]

Daniel Craig fond of firearms? News to me.

Fond of confiscating them is what I've heard him say, repeatedly.

I was going to try and explain that to him, but it was just too much effort to do all the links for the seemingly multi-syllabically challenged.

 

[Flyingbullseye]

One of my buddies had a business meeting at the Remington ammunition plant in Lonoke, AR last week. He said that the guy he was in a meeting with told him that they were currently producing 10 million 22lr rounds, 2.5 million centerfire rifle/pistol rounds and 1 million shotgun shells PER DAY! Where is all that ammo?

People hoarding and panic buying. Anything that shows up in stock its gone by lunch.

Something else and I don't know if its true but at least sounds reasonable. Local firearms shop, the owner and I were talking and he mentioned having talked to distributors for various ammo makers was many of the makers are sitting on warehouses full of ammo but don't want to sell too much before any new law/regulations come out and screw themselves with new taxes/regulations. Sounds pretty legit, no tinfoil hat as he couldn't confirm the in depth truth to it. Personally if there's any truth to it I would have no problem believing it as no one is sure what is and isn't coming.

 

[BapZander]

People hoarding and panic buying. Anything that shows up in stock its gone by lunch.

Something else and I don't know if its true but at least sounds reasonable. Local firearms shop, the owner and I were talking and he mentioned having talked to distributors for various ammo makers was many of the makers are sitting on warehouses full of ammo but don't want to sell too much before any new law/regulations come out and screw themselves with new taxes/regulations. Sounds pretty legit, no tinfoil hat as he couldn't confirm the in depth truth to it. Personally if there's any truth to it I would have no problem believing it as no one is sure what is and isn't coming.

That doesn't make sense to me. I would think they would sell everything they could -before- any new regulations, no?

 

[McCrazy]

That doesn't make sense to me. I would think they would sell everything they could -before- any new regulations, no?

Exactly. Why would you sit on stuff that may be more costly to sell/by in the future due to taxes? They would try to dump it now before new laws tax the shit out of it or make it illegal to sell.

If they were withholding it to manipulate the market that would make sense although be illegal and an asshole thing to do. Plus, the person withholding ammo doesn't get to benefit from the increased market prices.

 

[ohiogunnut]

All I know is this utter lack of powder supply is starting to be troublesome. I have a good stash and plenty loaded, but I cannot bring myself to head to the range as long as I cannot replace what I have. I've been hunting for TAC, BLC2, ARCOMP, etc for three months and always seem late to the trough when it hits in stock (for minutes before its gone). As this drags on and more people become sensitized to this lack of availability, EVERYBODY is going to turn into a hoarder. I know the instant I can find it, I will be ordering 24-32lbs. Crazy days....

 

[ohiogunnut]

Here's another question I have. Say you see some sweet new toy in a caliber you don't have. Who in their right mind would buy a stick when you can't locate components to load the first round? I've held off on a couple temptations for this very reason. I have to guess this is impacting gun sales significantly on the backend of the panic buying. One upside is that I have re-budgeted my toy $$ into long term food stuffs....

 

[Miles2go]

My Walmart has 20-30 boxes of 6.8 spc, been sitting on the shelf for at least a week. What the heck?